Atheists!

[MelanieAnne]

MelanieAnne, I think compassion may be only loosely connected with religious belief. I have of course met atheists who are not “nice” people, and theists who are. I’m sure membership in a community of belief influences action, but it could go both ways. A Gallup poll about a decade ago showed that the more conservative a person’s religious belief is, the more likely she or he is to be prejudiced against others and closed to change. And Mohammad Atta was motivated by religious devotion when he flew into the World Trade Center. I wonder to what degree “niceness” is genetic and antedates rather than results from environmental influences.

Ptrus

Speaking only for myself, when I am cranky, a short episode of self-examination usually does the trick. I may not feel any better, but I am careful not to spread my cranky mood to others. This self-examination is a sacrament in my faith.

My less-happy experience with Atheists is that they never even consider self-examination or ponder how their behavior might affect others (I’m speaking of specific persons here, not in generalities). The unexamined life is often one marked by self-absorption.

I imagine most would classify Catholics as “conservative” and yet those that I know could hardly be described as “prejudiced against others and closed to change” in fact just the opposite ~ unless you’re talking about certain things such as abortion where Catholics are closed to change as to whether it is murder.

Obviously our life experiences are remarkably different.

 

[drpmjhess]

My less-happy experience with Atheists is that they never even consider self-examination or ponder how their behavior might affect others (I’m speaking of specific persons here, not in generalities). The unexamined life is often one marked by self-absorption.

Obviously our life experiences are remarkably different.

MelanieAnne, I don’t know that our lives are that different – I’m Roman Catholic as well. (But I do work with scientists in a secular context.) I agree with you that perhaps examination of conscience is taught in a Catholic religious context in a way that it isn’t in an atheist context; I don’t know what the atheist equivalent of “examination of conscience” is.

My comment about prejudice was not based on personal experience but on a published survey. It may be that the Christians they surveyed were already in closed, conservative, prejudiced communities independent of their religious background. I’d like to see a survey that distinguished prejudice level by denomination as well as by urban/suburban/rural.

I live in a very liberal open-minded community, and worship in a Catholic parish that is warmly accepting of people of widely varying races, economic backgrounds, sexual orientations, chronological ages, gender identities, political proclivities, national loyalties, psychological dispositions, and levels of academic achievement. It’s my theory that it probably helps decrease one’s prejudice level to live and worship amidst such human diversity.

Petrus

 

[stoat100]

Atheists, I am not here to talk about Christianity or any other religion.

OK – I won’t go through the ‘you are an atheist about the 5,000 other gods’ routine.

I want to know exactly why you do not believe there is a Supreme Being.

Parsimony. Occam’s razor. The need for extraordinary claims to be supported by extraordinary evidence, and the total lack of any evidence, extraordinary or otherwise, in this instance.

For the sake of argument let us say that evolution is real

OK. That’s a fair interpretation of the mountains of evidence, and complete lack of cogent competing theory.

and the big bang began everything.

Not at all OK. Physicists do not know, but are trying very hard to find out, and the kind of possibilities they are looking at make both ‘began’ and ‘everything’ non-trivial items to define – metaverses, branes, M-theory, time-loops and so on. We don’t even know the question, let alone the answer!

What created the means necessary for the Big Bang to take place?

See above – we don’t know (and neither do you), but we are going to try very hard to find out! Any other answer is an Appeal to Ignorance, ie a logical fallacy.

What was at hand to spur mutations and changes to cause evolution to take place?

You don’t understand evolution. There is no requirement for a teleological ‘driver’ – that’s why it’s such an elegant solution.

Why do you look at a car and know that there was something involved in the creation of it and that it did not simply fall together by chance

Because, based on what I know of cars, and of reality, that is the most likely explanation.

and at the same time think that trees are a mistake?

You are confusing complexity and design. Complexity occurs from simplicity quite happily in nature. Even if you pare things down to a simple computer simulation, it still happens – it’s that ingrained into our universe.

I do not think trees are a mistake. That would be anthropomorphic and not even mean anything.

I like trees!

Why is it so hard to comprehend that the universe was made by God?

It’s not hard. It’s very easy - that’s why primitive societies did exactly that. It’s not necessarily true, but compared to postgraduate quantum physics and cosmology, it is very easy.

Even if the universe is a mistake

I do not think the universe is a mistake. That would be anthropomorphic and not even mean anything.

I like the universe! Although it has room for a few improvements…

or some chance,

1 in 1, it would appear! Again, we just don’t know.

then what was it that made this possible?

What made it impossible? Possible / likely / unlikely compared with what? Again, we don’t know enough to define, let alone answer these questions, yet.

You are alive

We’re agreed on something!

and have the ability to disprove there is a God

I cannot disprove any negative. The onus is on you to prove the positive.

yet you have the audacity to think there is no God that created you and gave you the ability to disprove Him. There is no God who gave you this ability?

I am audacious because my non-belief that I was created by a non-existent deity negates my non-existent ability to disprove a non-existent deity? You’ve lost me now!

Remember: YOU ARE ALIVE! There had to be something that made that possible.

Well, by definition, since I am indeed alive (thanks for the update! .

I think you are confusing ‘how?’, which is what scientists are asking, and ‘why?’, a human-specific attribution of ‘meaning’ and ‘purpose’ that we can in no way apply to nonhuman affairs.

Again, if this was random chance, what was it that caused this?

See above.

HOW can you believe there is no God?

In the same way as you can believe there are no unicorns. Zero evidence.

Have a nice day!

 

[MH84]

MelanieAnne, I don’t know that our lives are that different – I’m Roman Catholic as well. (But I do work with scientists in a secular context.) I agree with you that perhaps examination of conscience is taught in a Catholic religious context in a way that it isn’t in an atheist context; I don’t know what the atheist equivalent of “examination of conscience” is.

My comment about prejudice was not based on personal experience but on a published survey. It may be that the Christians they surveyed were already in closed, conservative, prejudiced communities independent of their religious background. I’d like to see a survey that distinguished prejudice level by denomination as well as by urban/suburban/rural.

I live in a very liberal open-minded community, and worship in a Catholic parish that is warmly accepting of people of widely varying races, economic backgrounds, sexual orientations, chronological ages, gender identities, political proclivities, national loyalties, psychological dispositions, and levels of academic achievement. It’s my theory that it probably helps decrease one’s prejudice level to live and worship amidst such human diversity.

Petrus

You are not Catholic at heart. Maybe you have Christian values, but you are not really Catholic.

You seem to be a very worldly-minded person who is still hoping that there is a God.

Is this an accurate (but very simplified) inference?

 

[MelanieAnne]

MelanieAnne, I don’t know that our lives are that different – I’m Roman Catholic as well. (But I do work with scientists in a secular context.) I agree with you that perhaps examination of conscience is taught in a Catholic religious context in a way that it isn’t in an atheist context; I don’t know what the atheist equivalent of “examination of conscience” is.

My comment about prejudice was not based on personal experience but on a published survey. It may be that the Christians they surveyed were already in closed, conservative, prejudiced communities independent of their religious background. I’d like to see a survey that distinguished prejudice level by denomination as well as by urban/suburban/rural.

I live in a very liberal open-minded community, and worship in a Catholic parish that is warmly accepting of people of widely varying races, economic backgrounds, sexual orientations, chronological ages, gender identities, political proclivities, national loyalties, psychological dispositions, and levels of academic achievement. It’s my theory that it probably helps decrease one’s prejudice level to live and worship amidst such human diversity.

Petrus

I too live in a rather diverse community and I suspect that’s a factor.

But I have to also say that surveys themselves can also be biased, the questions can be phrased in certain ways that skew the results. So without being able to review the actual details of the survey itself, I tend to be rather skeptical of conclusions that are by nature very subjective.

 

[MelanieAnne]

You are not Catholic at heart. Maybe you have Christian values, but you are not really Catholic.

You seem to be a very worldly-minded person who is still hoping that there is a God.

Is this an accurate (but very simplified) inference?

It’s not a good idea to start judging the extent of another poster’s faith. I suspect you may run afoul of forum rules by doing so. I’d check them if I were you, before continuing along this path.

It’s one thing to ask questions and have a discussion. Quite another to tell another poster that they’re not a Catholic. Just a suggestion…

 

[drpmjhess]

But I have to also say that surveys themselves can also be biased, the questions can be phrased in certain ways that skew the results. So without being able to review the actual details of the survey itself, I tend to be rather skeptical of conclusions that are by nature very subjective.

I agree. And, anecdotally, I have been reviled by some parishioners in a Russian Catholic Church (for not speaking Russian and for sitting in someone’s “private” pew!) and embraced by a protestant community in Nigeria for caring enough (as a Catholic) to participate in their charismatic African Eucharistic service!

It is hard to unravel the rhyme or reason underlying closedness and openness, prejudice and lack thereof.

Petrus

 

[MH84]

That is a question which demands a massive answer. And I truly mean massive. I would essentially have to explain what I believe underpins all of human morality, human endeavour and human civilisation.

Needless to say - the conclusion is not God, but the conclusion is conviction to survive and the rationality of altruism and co-operation in order to actually survive. All else follows.

Humour me

A Christian made the thread, not Atheists.

You are joining in. Are you being forced to post here?

Define ‘vain’ and define ‘worthless’. We need to actually be on the same page.

vain: ineffectual or unsuccessful; futile
worthless: without worth; of no use, importance, or value; good-for-nothing

www.dictionary.com

Why is eternal life the only expression of honour?

Did I say that?

You really do not understand what you’re talking about.

First of all not all marriages are based on Christian values. Second of all, I would suspect that a lot of Atheists actually do not get married and/or have a family. Moreover I would suspect equally that a lot of Atheists also have a lot of endless, meaningless sex.

And there is no coherency amongst Atheists on ‘what to do’. You are projecting a coherent philosophy on life from Christianity onto Atheists and it is false and unfair. Atheism only means to ‘disbelieve in God’. There is no coherent Atheistic manifesto or Atheistic ‘way of life’. All it is equals a disbelief in an assertion. An Atheist can take his or her ethical ideology from Kantianism, Libertarianism, Utilitarianism, Universalism, Moral Subjectivism or whatever he or she likes.

Are you married?

Atheism is silent on lifestyle and ethics.

I don’t know about that.

I can guess what you are getting at however, and I ask why you do not just go out and ask it: Why are Atheists moral?

Is that your question?

I can’t remember, but its probably on the right track. So, please answer why you have a sense of morality. And if "infidelity is wrong. What if the spouse doesnt find out?

 

[drpmjhess]

You are not Catholic at heart. Maybe you have Christian values, but you are not really Catholic. You seem to be a very worldly-minded person who is still hoping that there is a God. Is this an accurate (but very simplified) inference?

Excuse me, but you are speaking out of utter ignorance. I am a Roman Catholic theologian who has taught in four Roman Catholic universities and two seminaries since 1982; I’m preparing my eight-year-old for First Holy Communion in May; I sing baritone for the Latin Masses our Schola Cantorum prayerfully presents each week.

If I lacked charity or intellectual depth as you may, I suppose I might question your Catholicity, but my habit is to let my inner censor check me from expressing my innate prejudices.

Petrus

 

[MH84]

It’s not a good idea to start judging the extent of another poster’s faith. I suspect you may run afoul of forum rules by doing so. I’d check them if I were you, before continuing along this path.

It’s one thing to ask questions and have a discussion. Quite another to tell another poster that they’re not a Catholic. Just a suggestion…

What did I say that is offensive? Please tell me the rule I have broken.

 

[drpmjhess]

It’s not a good idea to start judging the extent of another poster’s faith. I suspect you may run afoul of forum rules by doing so. I’d check them if I were you, before continuing along this path. It’s one thing to ask questions and have a discussion. Quite another to tell another poster that they’re not a Catholic. Just a suggestion…

Thanks, MelanieAnne.

Petrus

 

[FaithofAbraham]

This line of reasoning makes no actual sense. Even if everything in your premises are taken to be true - ‘Having no control’ is not evidence of the existence of God.

Moreover, your own argument defeats free-will and consequently defeats any choice in whether one is a Catholic or an Atheist and therefore what someone believes in is essentially, the result of those ‘neurons’. You have nullified your own world view.

Those neurons exist and operate by forces of the universe, so those forces are your God. That’s just a fact. And that these forces have created you is proof that they can manifest in a being with human qualities.

So the thing that is your God has the potential for being like a human only a lot more powerful, which is pretty much the God described in the Bible, as we are made in God’s likeness.

 

[MH84]

Tell me, is this offensive?:

All of this “objective observation” business may be very valid as far as it goes. But I have found that Atheists are some of the most cantankerous, cranky, and generally unhappy people to be around. All the time. Those I have come in contact with seem to grow more and more opinionated with age, do not appear to engage in self-examination EVER, and selfish self-indulgence is the order of the day for them. It may work for them in their life, but it does not work well for those who have to endure their presence.

 

[Skavau]

MH84:

Humour me

You want me to type a massive post on the origins of human morality? No. I have not got the energy nor interest in putting all my thought on it into a long essay. All I will say is that there is no evidence that it is entirely from any specific religion and/or God.

These are your questions, not mine. Ask more specific questions.

MH84:

You are joining in. Are you being forced to post here?

No I’m not being forced. I simply posted because of what I saw as ignorance and bigotry towards Atheist/Atheism from various posters on here.

MH84:

vain: ineffectual or unsuccessful; futile
worthless: without worth; of no use, importance, or value; good-for-nothing

Okay.

Why is everything on this world vain and worthless sans God?

Mh84:

Did I say that?

You certainly implied it. Do you think it is?

MH84:

Are you married?

No.

MH84:

I don’t know about that.

It is. In every way.

Mh84:

I can’t remember, but its probably on the right track. So, please answer why you have a sense of morality.

The fact you doubt another individuals morality based on a different metaphyiscal belief is fundamentally disturbing. I have a morality because I care for others. I take an interest in human affairs and I value co-operation.

MH84:

And if "infidelity is wrong. What if the spouse doesnt find out?

It is wrong by pure basis of a breach of agreement.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Tell me, is this offensive?:

What a hypoctritical thing to say.

Here you go accusing atheists of being "cantankerous, cranky, and generally unhappy people to be around. “All the time”. Youve called them “self-indulgent” as well.

Youve got some nerve girl.

That which you quoted is not hypocritical if it is the truth of my experience. I’m speaking anecdotally of actual individuals, not generically. If you would notice the context perhaps you wouldn’t be confused.

 

[MH84]

Excuse me, but you are speaking out of utter ignorance. I am a Roman Catholic theologian who has taught in four Roman Catholic universities and two seminaries since 1982; I’m preparing my eight-year-old for First Holy Communion in May; I sing baritone for the Latin Masses our Schola Cantorum prayerfully presents each week.

If I lacked charity or intellectual depth as you may, I suppose I might question your Catholicity, but my habit is to let my inner censor check me from expressing my innate prejudices.

Petrus

Sir, if I have spoken out of line, I apologise here.

 

[Skavau]

Those neurons exist and operate by forces of the universe, so those forces are your God.

By ‘my God’ do you mean contain the power of ‘God’?. If so, these forces are not the ‘God’ that you believe in.

Your definition of God appears to be power.

 

[MelanieAnne]

What did I say that is offensive? Please tell me the rule I have broken.

I thought the accusation uncharitable. Next time I’ll just silently report it. Apparently that would be a more prudent course of action.

 

[MH84]

That which you quoted is not hypocritical if it is the truth of my experience. I’m speaking anecdotally of actual individuals, not generically. If you would notice the context perhaps you wouldn’t be confused.

You classed a group of people with very demeaning words.

 

[MH84]

I thought the accusation uncharitable. Next time I’ll just silently report it. Apparently that would be a more prudent course of action.

You reported me over that?