Bad behavior when left with Dad

[PetraG]

In our house growing up, the worst thing that could happen to us was when Dad got home and found out that we had been rude to our mother. That would bring on the greatest displeasure from him and the most severe punishments, which would be strict and swift. We could figure isolation with no means of amusement would be part of that package, so after the lecture about how important our mother was to our dad and to us we could “think about what we had done.”

Their world needs to come to a complete and extremely uncomfortable halt every time they THINK about showing a single bit of disrespect to your husband. Eye-rolling in itself is an expression of contempt. Shows of contempt are the kind of thing that can wreck a marriage and it needs to be nipped in the bud. They need to be taught, however, how to express displeasure that is in-bounds. Children are allowed to lodge complaints; they have to be taught how that is and is not done.

Having said that, when a child decides to use urination or defecation as a show of defiance, it may be time to turn to a professional. That is not in the typical range of defiant behaviors for a 7 year old, let alone for children to do in a group. It could actually be a sign of anxiety that the child is ill-equipped to express or cope with.

So no, I would not leave them alone with them until this is cleared up. You need to use your own judgment, but at the urination to show displeasure I would get them in to see a professional.

 

[Domer90]

Can I ask how long you’ve been married? Were these issues here prior to having children?

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

I understand, but we are reading black words on a white screen. There may be a lot being unsaid or the post was written in frustration. I’m a lousy poster because I think people can read my mind. I encourage the OP to seek professional help as well.

There is no universe where a neurotypical 7year old girl peeing on her mother’s pillow dosn’t require immediate, professional help. As I elaborated in a further post inappropriate urination is on the top of the list for many, many very serious issues. I’d compare it to “my child is drinking a ton of water, losing weight and has sweet breath” serious.

 

[Domer90]

Lord was not capitalized. I think that was the poster’s intention. Lord does have more than one meaning.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

7year old girl, even egged on by a 3yo,

5yo, not a 3yo . Two school age children.

 

[PetraG]

There is no universe where a neurotypical 7year old girl peeing on her mother’s pillow dosn’t require immediate, professional help. As I elaborated in a further post inappropriate urination is on the top of the list for many, many very serious issues. I’d compare it to “my child is drinking a ton of water, losing weight and has sweet breath” serious.

Well, there is a universe, but I’d agree that this would be a “Do Not Pass Go, Do Not Collect $200, Go Directly to the Child Psychologist” red flag for me.

The big issue is that there could be a situation here in which parenting techniques which are usually appropriate could exacerbate a bad situation. I’m not a professional, I can’t say for sure, but for myself I’d agree that this is something I’d want addressed without delay.

The early reader may have anxiety issues that come out with Dad, even possibly (paradoxically) because she feels the most safe with him or wants attention from him and doesn’t know how to get it. If the behavior change is sudden it could even have nothing to do with Dad but has to do with a traumatic incident, like a molestation incident that she does not know how to process or cope with. Children who have suffered a psychological trauma very often find someone in particular that they act out with, and by that I don’t mean it is the person who perpetrated the trauma.

 

[Domer90]

I’m not sure of your reference, but I agree that starting with their pediatrician who may have some insight if she’s been their pediatrician for a while.

What raised flags for me was that she was an early reader and likes adults better than peers.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Xanthippe_Voorhees:

7year old girl, even egged on by a 3yo,

5yo, not a 3yo . Two school age children.

Actually, re-read, thanks. 7 year old and a 5 year old. 5yo might not be in school though, since now some people aren’t doing Kindergarden until 6.

No, the 7 year old is extremely bright. No, there is no urinary tract infection. The 7 year old could read at 3. She’s now reading way above her first grade level. With adults she is loving, social, and outgoing. Among peers (other kids) she doesn’t do well with and often seeks adults.

I’d imagine it was the little 5 year old who is the classic clown who got her big sister in the pee-trouble. The 5 year old has an extreme funny bone to potty humor & banna peel falls. Probably, Dad’s trama and anxiety over the keepsake made the little one try to lighten the situation by bringing humor to the situation; humor for her and her sister, not humor for Dad.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

I’m not sure of your reference, but I agree that starting with their pediatrician who may have some insight if she’s been their pediatrician for a while.

What raised flags for me was that she was an early reader and likes adults better than peers.

Those can be addressed later. They are red flags but indiacate a much, much less serious situation.

 

[PetraG]

I’m not sure of your reference, but I agree that starting with their pediatrician who may have some insight if she’s been their pediatrician for a while.

What raised flags for me was that she was an early reader and likes adults better than peers.

I would decide whether to see the pediatrician first or proceed directly to a pediatric behavior specialist 100% based on (a) whether the behavior specialist wanted a referral from a physician who had ruled out physical causes and (b) what difference it would make with my health insurance. I would not take a “wait and see” approach from a pediatrician, however. Advocate for finding what is going on sooner rather than later.

Start making phone calls.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

I didn’t know a delicate way to address that bit, but unfortunately, that kind of occurrence is on the top of the list for inappropriate urination. As a mandated reporter if a child told me that they or their sibling did such a thing, I’d be preparing to make a call.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

I don’t think you have nearly enough info to conclude that.

A 7yo deliberately urinating on her mother’s pillow.
Even if that family has an over abundance of pillows , that’s really concerning.

My oldest (yes the one who pee’d on a pillow)

Have you asked her why she urinated on your pillow? Has she ever done anything like this before. Urinated on your bed, clothing, seat, food, etc

Did your husband perhaps react so harshly over the breakage that the children were terrified?

 

[PetraG]

I didn’t know a delicate way to address that bit, but unfortunately, that kind of occurrence is on the top of the list for inappropriate urination. As a mandated reporter if a child told me that they or their sibling did such a thing, I’d be preparing to make a call.

It is something a child will do when they don’t know how to deal with anxiety. I would be especially concerned about the possibility of molestation, however, if this were a sudden behavioral change rather than a long-standing battle that seemed to be coming to a head. Having said that, being by far the smartest kid in your class and feeling like a social outsider is enough to make anyone anxious, but if being extroverted around adults is how you get your positive feedback, then anxiety might come out in “extroverted” ways.

Really, this is stuff for professionals. I’m suggesting all this merely in way of suggesting the kind of things that I’d want to consider before giving a history to the professional. Think up what has been the child’s habitual behavior and how that changed with big changes like starting school or some other event that seemed to change the child’s behavior pattern.

 

[Xantippe]

I suspect people have already said this, but I’ll echo it; your husband needs to drop the hammer on their bad behavior and discipline them very directly. Big time.

What if the problem is that the kids don’t see a lot of their dad, and they think he’s harsh when they do see him?

This may be the product of dropping the hammer.

 

[PetraG]

What if the problem is that the kids don’t see a lot of their dad, and they think he’s harsh when they do see him?

This may be the product of dropping the hammer.

Yes. The other thing professionals do is to help typical people with typical coping skills learn the coping strategies that are needed with an unusually trying situation. It isn’t just for people with “disorders.”

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Lord was not capitalized. I think that was the poster’s intention. Lord does have more than one meaning.

Makes no difference. We are Catholic. We pray and do penance for the outrage, sacrilege and offences against our Lord, Jesus.

Do you know the Fatima prayer of the Angel?

Either we walk the talk or we allow our standards to slip down below the line. Lift that bar back up and keep it there. Excel at being Catholic
First commandment.
“You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain.…”
Says God.

 

[Xantippe]

I think your husband has some deep seated issues that need to be worked out with a professional therapist. The reactions your kids have to your husband, the urinating, the way you describe your husband grumbling and cursing under his breath, his outburst about the keepsake being broken…

I have an older relative who does that stuff (right down to the muttering under breath), and it’s really hard on his relationship with the rest of the family. He just doesn’t have reasonable expectations and he’s always disappointed by everybody–with the result that at least one of his kids gave up on trying to be “good” (and arguably both).

Kids (and wives!) need to believe that they are capable of living up to household standards.

I think you two need to work out an agreement on what your standards are, both for housekeeping and parenting.

 

[Xantippe]

They need to be taught, however, how to express displeasure that is in-bounds. Children are allowed to lodge complaints; they have to be taught how that is and is not done.

Yes.

I was getting worried about where you were going with this, but yes, there has to be a legal way to show disagreement.

 

[Xantippe]

What raised flags for me was that she was an early reader and likes adults better than peers.

That also jumped out at me.

Paradoxically, being an early reader can be a red flag.

Hyperlexia: Signs, Diagnosis, and Treatment

 

[PetraG]

Yes.

I was getting worried about where you were going with this, but yes, there has to be a legal way to show disagreement.

An example from our house: out of respect for the cook, the worst that could be said of a meal was, “um, you don’t need to make this again for me. I am not fond of this.”
(a) displeasure was to be expressed as a personal opinion, not a universal declaration on the quality of the dish.
(b) words like “gross” and “yucky” were only to be used when there was literally vermin, mold or something of that sort wrong with the food, something that actually would make the food inedible. If you said “this makes me sick,” that was to literally mean “I need to lie down and I may need to throw up” or “I think the insides of my mouth are beginning to itch.”
(c ) it was understood that while the cooks were interested in making meals that everyone found reasonably agreeable, it was not to be assumed that meal planning was going to revolve around the likes and dislikes of one person.

Likewise, if we had a planned course of action, the children were allowed to say, “here is the issue I have with that.” Sometimes there were problems the planners had not taken into consideration, after all. Sometimes we made adjustments based on negative feedback, sometimes we didn’t, but negative feedback was allowed as long as it was respectful of the people doing the “administrative work.”

The idea was to turn out adults who could be counted on to give honest but kind feedback that wasn’t soaked in a sense of entitlement. I don’t know if their upbringing from us did it–they were influenced by people other than us, like some fine teachers and coachers, to whom we feel a great debt–but we find our now-legal-age sons quite amiable to deal with most of the time, and I think the feeling is mutual.