BAHA'I thread III - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[daler]

That still doesn’t answer the question as to how you can understand the Incarnation to be true yet have some sort of obstacle to understanding that a glorified body can walk through walls.

So you do understand that the physically resurrected and glorified body of Christ could indeed walk through walls.

PR,
. What comes to mind in the “walking through walls or entering the room without using the doors” thing is contingent upon the same rational but spiritual understanding of the verse, “Wherever two or more gather and make mention of Me, there I am also”

. Do you see where some of us see it that way? Can you understand our understanding of the one in light of the other? That He Who can be present in a million places at the same time when two or three gather in different rooms all over the entire planet, for example, can do so independent of having a physical body?
. If He can be in a million places at once, without so much as a single atom present from this physical body which apparently is being stored somewhere, or occupying some space in outer space or on another planet, why in the world, or the heavens, does His existence “need” or “depend” upon a collection of atoms, the only purpose of which was to give Him an earthly presence by which means we could see Him and hear Him when we all acknowledge that He already existed spiritually prior to ever manifesting Himself in human form? As He said, “Before Abraham was, I am”. We all believe that He existed without a physical body, right?
. But then you are insisting that is continued existence once having appeared in the physical world requires that He can in no wise continue to exist without that collection of atoms. He “was” before the atoms even came into existence. Why does He “need” them now for His existence when He didn’t “need” them before? This is one of my questions to you. I maintain that He does not need them, but rather people need them to conceptualize His identity to suit their own ability to understand and visualize His continued existence because they have trouble comprehending life without physical form, because it is naturally all they know and identify with, whether of themselves, or Him, because they cannot conceive of existence otherwise. (I hope this isn’t too long or redundant)

. God gave us rational minds to think rationally. He gave us imaginations that we might imagine things which aren’t, but can be, or can’t be, that we might grasp reality as opposed to fantasy.
. Considering that people delight in fantasy, teach and entertain their children through countless fantasies, and indulge in fantasy all throughout their adult lives, speaks to the fantastic world of non-reality in which men are wont to dwell, including their ideas of religion, which have been salted with fantasy since the beginning of time. Hence, to question yet another interpretation of fantastic and contradictory episodes fraught with contradictions which is being told by a culture of people who had always delighted in fantasy is a rational course in the development of modern perception separating religious “truths” from religious myths.

. Do you at least acknowledge the logic in the above line of thinking? Is being rational a sin, in your view? Is the recognition that human beings have always perpetuated fantasy as fact to their children and others necessarily not allowed when it comes to discerning religious truths?

. Please address my questions in light of the above reasoning, if you don’t mind.

Thank you very much for your generosity of time and spirit.
Dale

 

[daler]

Fair enough. However the stone was rolled back, do you believe that this was a lie, or the fact that Jesus walked through walls was a lie?

Baha’is? Esp daler? Any response?

My own response would be to consider what are the possibilities.

1 It is reasonably possible to consider that some of His followers rolled back the stone and removed His body for burial in another place, changing His bloody dressings, and leaving them behind. I believe this to be well within the realm of possibility and needs to be acknowledged. As to the reasons why, we can speculate that they had their reasons, such as to protect His body from desecration, as was very common.

2 That the phrase “Jesus walked through walls” is an attempt to describe “how” He can fulfill that which He describes when He says, “Wherever two or three gather in My name, there I am also”. This is to a non-believing world, where people have yet to comprehend His eternal and transcendent reality which existed before Abraham and continues to exist after taking on a human identity.
. Hence, it is not “a lie”, but a means of describing His transcendent reality and eternal existence, to be able to exist and be present, even when we cannot see Him.

. Again, PR, consider how you explain things to children who are too young to understand complexities. You do not speak to them of that which is beyond their comprehension, rather you speak to them in the language of their developmental stage. i.e. Piaget

. We must consider how difficult it is to communicate the supernatural spiritual existence to a very, very literate world view of a people who could not even comprehend the teaching “Ye must be born again” other than to respond, “What? Must I enter my mother’s womb again when she is old?”
. Do you see how childlike that mentality is, and that the collective capacity of people to consider such an abstract concept was challenging? Indeed, so much of what Christ did was to elevate the horizons of their thinking. “Who is my brother?” or the story of the good Samaritan, etc.
. He elevated people’s thought, enabling them to comprehend higher math, so to speak, in many, many cases. He “taught” people, by parables and examples.

 

[PRmerger]

PR,
. What comes to mind in the “walking through walls or entering the room without using the doors” thing is contingent upon the same rational but spiritual understanding of the verse, “Wherever two or more gather and make mention of Me, there I am also”

. Do you see where some of us see it that way?

I am not understanding your point, friend.

Are you saying that Jesus was not actually present there, body and soul?

 

[PRmerger]

My own response would be to consider what are the possibilities.

1 It is reasonably possible to consider that some of His followers rolled back the stone and removed His body for burial in another place, changing His bloody dressings, and leaving them behind.

And what of the Roman guards? This corp was the elite fighting corp of the world. Disciplined. Strong. And fearing great punishment if a failure occurred on their watch.

His followers, you think, were able to hoodwink Roman guards and roll back a stone a remove a body, all under Roman soldiers’ watch?

 

[daler]

I am not understanding your point, friend.

Are you saying that Jesus was not actually present there, body and soul?

PR,
. I totally believe He is present!! I can “feel” His presence. I think that is the point, somehow. What I mean is that when people were trying to describe this feeling of His presence, they put it into words in such a way as to enable other people to experience what they were experiencing, which is His presence. Do you follow?
. As difficult as this is to describe in words, I suspect it was even more difficult back in those days. That is what I think is the challenge to us. How do we, even after 2000 years, comprehend what we are feeling, and knowing, that this presence of the Lord is more real than our daily lives, which are such a distraction to our spiritual lives which, in the end, will be all that we have.
. All that is on earth is transient, temporary, and in that sense, illusory. The reality to which we are called transcends this mortal, limited, and temporary reality. I think it is even as trying to speak to a fetus in the womb of its mother - telling it that there is this great world awaiting.
. To be “born again” is to enter that next world, beyond this material world. To see it, we have to open our spiritual eyes, and not be like those who have eyes, but see not. These spiritual eyes are not physical eyes, and the word “eyes” in this case is only a metaphor. Such metaphors serve a purpose, for they “enable” us to move to a higher plain of perception.
. It is this spiritual perception which is being communicated. It is a reality above our natural reality. That it is called a spiritual reality does not mean that it is not real. It is very real. More real in fact than the every day world we live in and experience only through our sensory perception.
. This, to me, is what is intended in those passages recorded in the Gospels. That He “entered the room, not using the doors” He entered, alright, even as He enters wherever two or more gather and make mention of Him. This is a profound spiritual state. We stand on the shore of a great, immensely great ocean. It is as though all we have known is a tiny island, and God sends Messengers to lead us to the grand shoreline where we can peer over the horizon and gaze upon that which is infinite and eternal.
. Our mortal experience in this world is like the fetal experience in the womb. It is a necessary stage, but even as the fetus is developing limbs and members which are of no real use for it in the womb, for there is nowhere to go and nothing to see, we also must develop our insight and virtues which shall aid us in the life to come.
. God bless

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

Fair enough. However the stone was rolled back, do you believe that this was a lie, or the fact that Jesus walked through walls was a lie?

I don’t think either is a lie.

I do think that both are elements in stories, which were told by the first Christians, and are told to us, to teach truths about love, God, the nature of the Kingdom and the like. In this, the early Christians were imitating Christ, who also told stories with a spiritual message. The truth taught by the prodigal son (or the lost sheep, or the lost coin) does not depend on what actually happened, or why the woman needed to light a lamp when she could wait until daylight to find her coin. We are dealing here with literature, oral literature in the first instance, and it requires a literary not a literal reading to get at the intended meaning.

 

[PRmerger]

PR,
. I totally believe He is present!! I can “feel” His presence.

No. The question was whether you believe He was present there “body and soul”. Yes or no?

There is a huge difference between someone being there, spiritually, and being actually present there.

For example, my dad passed away in 1991. Sometimes I can “feel” his presence. But if given the choice between feeling his presence, and actually being present in the room with him, I’d choose the latter.

And so would you, with your loved ones who have passed on.

So I’m sure you know the difference.

 

[daler]

And what of the Roman guards? This corp was the elite fighting corp of the world. Disciplined. Strong. And fearing great punishment if a failure occurred on their watch.

His followers, you think, were able to hoodwink Roman guards and roll back a stone a remove a body, all under Roman soldiers’ watch?

The same thing happened after the martyrdom of the Bab. His body riddled from a firing squad of no less than 750 soldiers was, along with His companion who had been tied to Him and suspended high upon a wall as a target, was cast into a mote outside the city of Tabriz. The bodies were guarded by soldiers who sole duty was to see that they were not removed. Nevertheless, on the 2nd or 3rd night some of His followers were able to sneak in and remove the bodies under the cover of darkness. It is possible that the soldiers were either distracted or drunk, but as the latter is forbidden to Muslims, unlikely. If it be God’s will, He can accomplish such a thing.

The bodies of the Bab and Anis were taken to the shop of one of the local believers and placed in a box so as to remain unseen. They were later moved to a secure place. My friend, Farzhad, was from Isfahan, where for some years in his grandfather’s home a casket containing the sacred remains of the Bab and His companion were sealed within a wall constructed to hide them.

In 1899 the remains of the Bab were brought to Haifa, hidden in the room of Baha’u’llah’s daughter, Bahiyyeh Khanum, beneath her bed, where no one would notice. Finally, in 1909 they were interred on the slopes of Mt Carmel, where Baha’u’llah had directed His son, Abdul Baha, to bury them.

Please, for a moment, view the Shrine of the Bab as it is now. I offer you this link:

news.bahai.org/documentlibrary/643/ShrineOfTheBab.pdf

Thank you for viewing
Dale

 

[daler]

No. The question was whether you believe He was present there “body and soul”. Yes or no?

There is a huge difference between someone being there, spiritually, and being actually present there.

For example, my dad passed away in 1991. Sometimes I can “feel” his presence. But if given the choice between feeling his presence, and actually being present in the room with him, I’d choose the latter.

And so would you, with your loved ones who have passed on.

So I’m sure you know the difference.

PR,
. I can very much relate to what you are saying. My own father passed away in 2005, just 6 weeks shy of his 100th birthday. I lost a daughter only 4 years ago, on Sept 2nd, and last Monday said prayers at her grave. She was only 24 and how I wish that I could wrap my physical arms around her still. She was so precious in this world to all who knew her and our grief knew no bounds. She came to me last night in a dream and I was walking with her, holding her hand.
. Now all I have is a beautiful picture on the wall and a lock of her braided hair to tug once in awhile, as I did when she was little giggling girl, so funny, so full of life. But I tell you honestly, I know that she is right here beside me, even as I type this to you. I don’t just think it, or feel it, which I do, but I also know it.
. God has created this world according to His wisdom and ways. We must accept His will in this, even if it is not in accord with our wishes. The pain of separation tells us of how sacred life is. It is not trivial, or without purpose.
. Our souls come into existence first in this world. Then they progress, readying us for the next world, or what we, in human language, call heaven. That world is greater than this world, even as this world is greater than the world of the womb.
. In a sense, you could say that we are in a 2nd womb, and that even as we were once a physical fetus, in that early stage, we are a spiritual fetus in this stage. That God loves us and wants us to be healthy and safe when we enter the next stage of our lives, in heaven, is why He sends us Divine Physicians and Heavenly Messengers, to train and educate our souls. For upon graduation from this school of the soul, which is this world, we shall then find ourselves ready for heavenly reality, reunited with our loved ones. That is what I believe.

 

[Servant19]

Wow. How rude. You’re certainly not making Bahaulla-Rama-Ding-Dong look any better. If the Ba’hai religion breeds this kind insular, close-minded and super-rude response from its adherents, I want nothing to do with it. Ever.

No man will ever compare to Jesus. You’re wrong. 100%, completely, totally wrong. Jesus suffered, died and rose for our sins. Your guy will never come close, ever, to being what Jesus was, teaching what Jesus did.

Really, your post was one of the most absolutely arrogant things I’ve ever read, and I am offended in the extreme. Way to set an example, pal.

Dear friend,

I sincerely apologize for having caused any offense.

Had you known how much work I had done for the selfless service of mankind on the day that I read “what can Bahaullah do for me?” then it may become more understandable.

Either way, my sincere apologies for having caused any offense.

I, as a result of the tremendous workload I have over the next month or so with the upcoming Bahai youth conference, will be significantly reducing my participation on this thread.

My heart is filled with only love for you all and indeed I am truly sorry again

God bless
Your loving servant

 

[arthra]

And what of the Roman guards? This corp was the elite fighting corp of the world. Disciplined. Strong. And fearing great punishment if a failure occurred on their watch.

His followers, you think, were able to hoodwink Roman guards and roll back a stone a remove a body, all under Roman soldiers’ watch?

There is one Gospel Matthew 27th chapter verses 62-65 that talks about guards but were they “Roman guards” as you suggest?

Now on the following day, which is the day after the Preparation, the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered together to Pilate, saying, “Sir, we remember that the deceiver said, while He was yet alive, 'After three days I arise from the dead.” Command, therefore, that the sepulchre be made secure until the third day; lest His disciples come and steal Him away, and say to the people ‘He is risen from the dead’; and the last error will be worse than the first." Pilate said to them, “Ye have a guard; go, make it secure as ye know how.” Then they went and made the sepulchre secure, by sealing the stone and with the guard.

Pilate is telling the priests and Pharisees to set their own guard. If carefully studied I think some of these views that are traditionally thought of can be considered again.

As above there are some amazing parallels between the martyrdom of the Bab and the crucifixion of Jesus…

 

[Lochias]

Lochias,
. While Servant’s comment may not have utilized tact, I suspect that what he was referring to is the gross failures, wars, and atrocities committed in the name of Christ, which cannot be denied. The great, great good cannot be denied either.
. As for the bad examples, if we look at those, the greatest slaughtering of humanity has unquestionably been undertaken by supposedly “Christian” nations both in making perpetual wars among themselves, the atrocities of colonization, campaigns of genocide and the Holocaust, the long history of slavery, treatment of Native Americans, the use of atomic weapons, etc, etc, etc.
. Were we to only look at that, his statement is undeniably true. However, what is also undeniable are the good fruits, not just the aforementioned list of bad fruits, for Christ did not intend for so much evil to be committed in His name and He cannot be held responsible for the doings of evil men.
. But let us be fair. Can the doings of evil men be attributed to others of their many Prophets? No! For none of the Prophets have encouraged such things, but always the opposite.
. People judge Islam today by the actions of a few, such as the terrorists and the Taliban. But these extremists no more represent true Islam than the Ku Klux Klan does true Christianity. It is the same in every other religion.
. And where is the charity in your own heart that you speak such slanders about a religion of which you know nothing about? Have you studied objectively the Writings of Baha’u’llah? Clearly you have not, yet you pervert your own tongue and shame yourself before Christ when you speak in such an adolescent and demeaning manner.
. I will speak with Servant privately about his lack of tact in making such a general statement, but meanwhile, I ask you to cast the mote out of your own eye.
. God bless you with wisdom and understanding, love and forgiveness.

Peace to you,
Daler

Christianity is not responsible for the wars you refer to. The Crusades were in response to Muslim (and bloody) uprisings across the globe. Individuals here and there committed attrocities, yes, but you’d not be free to spout your misinformation if the Crusades never happened. You’d be praying in a Mosque right now.

Sorry, but I think the Bahai religion is absolutely whack, and the proof’s in all of your responses. Totally lame.

 

[doormouse73]

There is one Gospel Matthew 27th chapter verses 62-65 that talks about guards but were they “Roman guards” as you suggest?

Now on the following day, which is the day after the Preparation, the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered together to Pilate, saying, “Sir, we remember that the deceiver said, while He was yet alive, 'After three days I arise from the dead.” Command, therefore, that the sepulchre be made secure until the third day; lest His disciples come and steal Him away, and say to the people ‘He is risen from the dead’; and the last error will be worse than the first." Pilate said to them, "Ye have a guard; go, make it secure as ye know how." Then they went and made the sepulchre secure, by sealing the stone and with the guard.

Pilate is telling the priests and Pharisees to set their own guard. If carefully studied I think some of these views that are traditionally thought of can be considered again.

As above there are some amazing parallels between the martyrdom of the Bab and the crucifixion of Jesus…

“Sir, we remember that the deceiver said, while He was yet alive, 'After three days I arise from the dead.”

deceiver?? this is allah from the prophet mohamed,this is not the farther the almighty with Jesus Christ along with the Holy Spirit… the Holy Trinity the Christian Belief…

you qoute the koran this is not Christian teachings ,Jesus does not deceive… mohamed does and many other prophets but you see you are not paying attention to what people are saying to you on these posts,Jesus is man and divine ,part of the holy trinity,the I AM…

but you are im afraid lost in a world of make believe…

you can see this by the way you have and others have answered and posted on these 2500 + posts …lololol

and you have had the audacity and cheek to try and ridicule people on here …lolololol

enough said i think…

the game is up …

 

[tonyfish58]

Some thoughts from Baha’u’llah - The remainder of the book will explain the truth of all religions, well worth a read.

IN THE NAME OF OUR LORD, THE EXALTED, THE MOST HIGH.

No man shall attain the shores of the ocean of true understanding except he be detached from all that is in heaven and on earth. Sanctify your souls, O ye peoples of the world, that haply ye may attain that station which God hath destined for you and enter thus the tabernacle which, according to the dispensations of Providence, hath been raised in the firmament of the Bayán.

The essence of these words is this: they that tread the path of faith, they that thirst for the wine of certitude, must cleanse themselves of all that is earthly—their ears from idle talk, their minds from vain imaginings, their hearts from worldly affections, their eyes from that which perisheth. They should put their trust in God, and, holding fast unto Him, follow in His way. Then will they be made worthy of the effulgent glories of the sun of divine knowledge and understanding, and become the recipients of a grace that is infinite and unseen, inasmuch as man can never hope to attain unto the knowledge of the All-Glorious, can never quaff from the stream of divine knowledge and wisdom, can never enter the abode of immortality, nor partake of the cup of divine nearness and favour, unless and until he ceases to regard the words and deeds of mortal men as a standard for the true understanding and recognition of God and His Prophets.

Link - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-1.html

Regards Tony

 

[Jcc1960]

deceiver?? this is allah from the prophet mohamed,this is not the farther the almighty with Jesus Christ along with the Holy Spirit… the Holy Trinity the Christian Belief…

you qoute the koran this is not Christian teachings ,Jesus does not deceive… mohamed does and many other prophets but you see you are not paying attention to what people are saying to you on these posts,Jesus is man and divine ,part of the holy trinity,the I AM…

but you are im afraid lost in a world of make believe…

you can see this by the way you have and others have answered and posted on these 2500 + posts …lololol

and you have had the audacity and cheek to try and ridicule people on here …lolololol

enough said i think…

the game is up …

Open your bible and read Matthew 27 62-66.

 

[doormouse73]

Open your bible and read Matthew 27 62-66.

And the next day, which followed the day of preparation, the chief priests and the Pharisees came together to Pilate, [63] Saying: Sir,

we have remembered, that that seducer said

, while he was yet alive: After three days I will rise again.

drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=27&l=62

no does not say deceiver at all…

that is for the koran…

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

…
no does not say deceiver at all…
that is for the koran…

I am afraid your point goes entirely over my head Doorbouse73. Here’s a really useful site for comparing translations of the Bible:

biblehub.com/matthew/27-63.htm

Quran translations also vary, but I do not see which verse in the Quran you are referring to, so as I said, I don’t see your point

 

[doormouse73]

I am afraid your point goes entirely over my head Doorbouse73. Here’s a really useful site for comparing translations of the Bible:

biblehub.com/matthew/27-63.htm

Quran translations also vary, but I do not see which verse in the Quran you are referring to, so as I said, I don’t see your point

then if what i have wrote goes totaly over your head then thats why you are a bahai… simple.every thing goes totally over your head if i put it down or any body else.for that matter…

btw… ill tell it like i would to my 16 year old daughter then… the word deceiver comes from the koran to describe God not the bible… is that simple enough for you?

not a verse. people on hear are putting words in peoples mouths along with false scripture like the one we have been presented… i didnt present anything out of the koranic scriptures at all,i merely stated that the word deceiver was mohameds god not the Christian God…

but it went right over your head.

 

[Servant19]

then if what i have wrote goes totaly over your head then thats why you are a bahai… simple.every thing goes totally over your head if i put it down or any body else.for that matter…

btw… ill tell it like i would to my 16 year old daughter then… the word deceiver comes from the koran to describe God not the bible… is that simple enough for you?

not a verse. people on hear are putting words in peoples mouths along with false scripture like the one we have been presented… i didnt present anything out of the koranic scriptures at all,i merely stated that the word deceiver was mohameds god not the Christian God…

but it went right over your head.

mmmmmmm, thats bizarre doormouse:

biblehub.com/matthew/27-63.htm

The new international version uses the word “deceiver”
The new american standard uses the word “deceiver”
The King James Bible uses the word “deceiver”
The Aramaic Bible in plain English uses the word “deceiver”
I could keep going…

I will pray for those in this thread that find the Baha’is funny (lol)

Thats my post for the day, see y’all tomorrow

 

[doormouse73]

are any of these a Catholic bible.??