BAHA'I thread III - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[SteveVH]

The following is my own personal response to Steve…

I can explain why we feel the Qur’an is an authentic revelation…because it was directly set down after revelation and recited in the language it was revealed in.

Unfortunately we don’t have that with Gospels… Yes they were inspired we believe but are not necessarily accurate…nor are they in the language that Jesus taught…which would have been Aramaic. So translating the original Aramaic oral tradition to Greek is a great leap.

As to the resurrection accounts they vary depending…overall we see them as symbolic or spiritual because ancient people believed in visions as literal events sometimes…

If you consider the Mount of Transfiguration where Moses and Elijah appeared on the Mount with Jesus to the closest disciples of Jesus … are we asked to accept that Moses and Elijah had to be physically present? I don’t think so.

Over a thousand years yes the beliefs of the church have been recited repeatedly… in creedal form. Are they ancient beliefs? Yes they are… It seems more emphasis has been placed on the creeds than on the surviving teachings of Jesus.

You still have not addressed the fact that the Church held this belief before the New Testament was written and nearly 4000 years before it was canonized. The early Church, the one’s who spoke Aramaic, believed in the bodily resurrection of Jesus because they had either witnessed him or had been given testimonies (in Aramaic) by those who had. Translation has nothing at all to do with it.

By the way, the creeds are the surviving teachings of Jesus, in a nutshell.

 

[Servant19]

You still have not addressed the fact that the Church held this belief before the New Testament was written and nearly 4000 years before it was canonized. The early Church, the one’s who spoke Aramaic, believed in the bodily resurrection of Jesus because they had either witnessed him or had been given testimonies (in Aramaic) by those who had. Translation has nothing at all to do with it.

By the way, the creeds are the surviving teachings of Jesus, in a nutshell.

Hi Steve, where can we study the original Aramaic teachings of the early Church?

 

[SteveVH]

Steve,
. The Jewish traditions were similarly handed down, were they not? Is it wrong for someone 3000 years later to question whether it was literal or metaphorical the stories of manna descending from heaven or Jonah being swallowed by a great fish?

It would be understandable for someone who comes along 1800 years later; who was not there in the beginning and has no historical connection to the founding of the Church to question many things. We do not have that issue. Our Church was there in the beginning, headed by the Apostles, those who had witnessed the resurrected Christ themselves. We simply guard the truth given to us in the beginning. We are not subject to interpreting documents that are foreign to us. We wrote the Book. We gave the world the Bible which then some pick up to try and use against us.

I grew up being told all of these stories were literal.

So you were poorly catechized. That is a shame.

I was also told that Santa Claus came through the chimney when we didn’t even have one, that the Tooth Fairy left me a dime under my pillow in exchange for a tooth, and that the earth was only 6000 years old. Then I was sent to school to study science, geology, and mathematics, expected to get A’s (cause mom was a teacher), and go back to Sunday school and repeat these old stories without my brain exploding.

Sounds like you really had it rough; pretty much like every other kid in the world. Although attempting to equate Santa and the Tooth Fairy with Christian Scripture is a nice trick, it is disrespectful. You certainly did not learn that the earth was 6000 years old from the Catholic Church.

To top that off, I was told to love my enemies until it was time to go kill the gooks in Viet Nam and the whole thing started to unravel. My personal friends in Wounded Knee are descended from the few survivors who weren’t massacred, who were rounded up and taken to a church in Pine Ridge where, posted right over the cross, was a sign that said “Peace on earth, good will to men.”

. Oh, and the reason they live on the reservation is because somebody signed a piece of paper written “In the year of our Lord, 1868” at Fort Laramie because the buffalo were hunted to extinction in part of a campaign of genocide. Then, my same friends were beaten, locked up, and deprived of food by the folks at the Mission school. They, too, were told to reject their own “superstitious” beliefs and accept a new set, which they were not allowed to question.

I am really trying to understand what the implication is here, daler. What do the evils of the world have to do with what the Church believed about the resurrection of Christ? Or are you trying to associate the Catholic Church with genocide and torture of native Americans? Just what is your purpose in making these comments within the context of our discussion?

All I a m saying is that God gave me a brain and when I use it to raise reasonable questions, I am being told I’m going to hell.

Who told you that?

That really affects my perception of those who insist upon my reliance upon such things as are consistent with ancient story-telling traditions which, to me, make much more sense to my rational mind when a little leeway is allowed for logical use of my mind.

“Faith and reason” is one of the mantras of the Catholic faith.

And when the same folks telling me this say "Well, the Muslims have been wrong for 1400 years, the Hindus for 5000, years, and the Jews on much of their beliefs for 3 or 4000 years, but “our guys” are right for the past 2000, and they’re the only one’s right, while all the others are wrong.

No offense intended here, Steve. Just laying it out as it is. I hope that this is ok. Is it? Is it ok for my Indian friends to finally ask these questions? Is it Ok for my Buddhist friends to ask a question in class? How about a Baha’i? or a Muslim? I can tell you this. That in Iran, the Baha’is are going to jail, losing their jobs, and still getting killed for “daring” to ask questions and oppose the equivalent of the Pharisees, i.e., the mullahs, and paying a very, very heavy price for it. They are going through exactly what the early Christians went through…

You seem very angry at me for some reason and so I’m going to cut this short. I have no idea why you have gone off on such a rant but it has nothing to do with what we were discussing.

 

[Servant19]

Hi Steve,

I think it is fair to say that there is a vast number of Christians (Catholics included) who say that non-Christians are going to hell, especially when very reasonable arguments are presented which may counter traditional Christian thinking. You only need to browse the threads in this very forum to see examples of that. I think your surprised tone in response to daler saying what he did was unwarranted.

Secondly, it is clear that the respectful dialogue that was once a feature of this thread has become rather personal and attacking by Lochias. This has possibly put some Baha’is in a rather emotional state. We are very happy to be challenged and reasoned through constructive INTELLIGENT dialogue, but personal attacks lack intelligence, and lack spirit.

Daler has ALWAYS talked to you in a respectful tone, I feel, but personal attacks are both uncharitable and unseemly…

Cheers

 

[Servant19]

It would be understandable for someone who comes along 1800 years later; who was not there in the beginning and has no historical connection to the founding of the Church to question many things. We do not have that issue. Our Church was there in the beginning, headed by the Apostles, those who had witnessed the resurrected Christ themselves. We simply guard the truth given to us in the beginning. We are not subject to interpreting documents that are foreign to us. We wrote the Book. We gave the world the Bible which then some pick up to try and use against us.

Steve, if I may address this response.

I have asked this question before and have yet to see a response.

In the Jewish Faith, the authority is passed down traditionally through the Semikhah.
Semikhah traces the ordination of authority back to Moses and the seventy elders.

What right did Jesus have to overthrow this traditional authority?

Did Jesus submit His revelation to the Semikhah for approval? (a question that has been asked of Baha’u’llah’s revelation in this thread)

How did Jesus in any way fulfil the Messianic prophecies because the Semikhah definitely did not approve it?

 

[SteveVH]

Hi Steve, where can we study the original Aramaic teachings of the early Church?

The Hebrew script, in which the Old Testament was written, is a variant of Aramaic and was really the written form of the language. I think there are some documents written in Aramaic which were found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. From wiki:

“During its 3,000-year written history,[4] Aramaic has served variously as a language of administration of empires and as a language of divine worship. It was the day-to-day language of Israel in the Second Temple period (539 BC – 70 AD), the language that Jesus Christ probably used the most,[5][6] the language of large sections of the biblical books of Daniel and Ezra, and is the main language of the Talmud.[7] However, Jewish Aramaic was different from the other forms both in lettering and grammar. Parts of the Dead Sea Scrolls are in Jewish Aramaic showing the unique Jewish lettering, related to the unique Hebrew script.”

Why do you ask? We know that the Apostles spoke the language of their own people and witnessed to them concerning the bodily resurrection of Christ.

 

[Servant19]

…and lochias, before you start calling me rude again, I would suggest that most people pictured you to look exactly like your avatar picture next to your name when you said the words:

How dare you compare him to Christ. You are wrong.

the world will not be bullied by so called “Christian” folk like you any more. We stand up for justice and demand respect, not for what we believe in, but for the very fact that we have been created by One God, and we all have a sprinkling of His attributes within all of us.

 

[SteveVH]

Steve, if I may address this response.

I have asked this question before and have yet to see a response.

In the Jewish Faith, the authority is passed down traditionally through the Semikhah.
Semikhah traces the ordination of authority back to Moses and the seventy elders.

What right did Jesus have to overthrow this traditional authority?

I think it might have something to do with the fact that he was the Son of God, or something like that. Who has authority over God?

Did Jesus submit His revelation to the Semikhah for approval? (a question that has been asked of Baha’u’llah’s revelation in this thread)

Why would God have to submit anything to anyone for their approval?

 

[Servant19]

The Hebrew script, in which the Old Testament was written, is a variant of Aramaic and was really the written form of the language. I think there are some documents written in Aramaic which were found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. From wiki:

“During its 3,000-year written history,[4] Aramaic has served variously as a language of administration of empires and as a language of divine worship. It was the day-to-day language of Israel in the Second Temple period (539 BC – 70 AD), the language that Jesus Christ probably used the most,[5][6] the language of large sections of the biblical books of Daniel and Ezra, and is the main language of the Talmud.[7] However, Jewish Aramaic was different from the other forms both in lettering and grammar. Parts of the Dead Sea Scrolls are in Jewish Aramaic showing the unique Jewish lettering, related to the unique Hebrew script.”

Why do you ask? We know that the Apostles spoke the language of their own people and witnessed to them concerning the bodily resurrection of Christ.

Thanks mate. I ask because it genuinely interests me to look it up in its original language

But also, you did say that the Resurrection was recorded in the original Aramaic? Was it in Aramaic or Hebrew?

Cheers

 

[SteveVH]

How did Jesus in any way fulfil the Messianic prophecies because the Semikhah definitely did not approve it?

Jesus is the Lamb of God, promised since Abraham was stopped by an angel from killing Isaac, foreshadowed at Passover. Jesus is Truth and Truth never has to be approved of. Many times it is not. Yet the truth remains. Once again, why would anyone think that Jesus needed anyone’s approval? He is God.

 

[Servant19]

I think it might have something to do with the fact that he was the Son of God, or something like that. Who has authority over God?

Why would God have to submit anything to anyone for their approval?

Well the same responses apply to Baha’ullah my friend

 

[SteveVH]

Thanks mate. I ask because it genuinely interests me to look it up in its original language

But also, you did say that the Resurrection was recorded in the original Aramaic? Was it in Aramaic or Hebrew?

Cheers

Please give me the quote where I said that the resurrection was recorded in original Aramaic?

What I said was that it was spoken by the Apostles in Aramaic because that was the common language of the people in the area. The point being that they did not have to interpret an ancient language. The witnesses to the resurrection spoke the language and the early Church understood the language with the result being that they believed in the bodily resurrection of Jesus before any of it was written down. We don’t have to rely on Sacred Scripture for our faith. We were there and the writings of the early Church Fathers attest to this.

 

[tonyfish58]

then why dont you investigate with thelink to the bible ive given you and see if you can find God in there?

or have you stopped you investigating now?

if so why do the bahais kep putting up links every post in multitudes and keep drumming on about educating your self with it?

you will not get this bird in the palm of you hand MR thats for sure.

is it a recruitment drive you are all on?

because you dont seem to be doing your home work from our questions only you seem to play deaf at those questions or even dumb…

but keep harping on about understanding you.read this,read that…

any way ,each to there own and always remember this… God sent his only begotten son Jesus Christ…

We will never stop investigating, our life is destined to a search after truth, one and all of us.

I get from the Bible a God of Love, I get from the Bible a Christ that died for our sins, I get from the Bible that one day we will be one in belief participating as One Fold under One Shepherd. Christ made a promises that he would return to fulfill this Prophesy.

I get from the Bible a warning that He will return Like a Thief in the Night and we are to watch if we want to see.

I get from the Bible that we must test all that claim to be a Prophet. I get from the Bible that we must be just in this pursuit and not just rattle off age old dogma. The Jews did this and missed Christ, there is a warning in history for all of us.

We are suggesting that we read the same Bible as you, we suggest one can read the Bible with New Keys, Keys provided by God as promised.

What I can not get from the Bible is exclusivity.

We are just suggesting there is another way to look at Scripture that will unite all. This in no ways takes away from the Power of Christ and His Written Words. To me it adds to it Magnificence!

But that is up to each individual, may we all make wise choices in this life, the Love of God our aim.

Regards Tony

 

[SteveVH]

Well the same responses apply to Baha’ullah my friend

There is only one Son of God; The Father has no other. His name is Jesus. You should at least open your mind enough to try to understand the Christian standpoint. There can be no other or we deny the very identity and mission of Christ. If Christ is who he claimed to be and proved to be through his life, death and resurrection, then Baha’u’llah cannot be who he claims to be. It is as simple as that.

 

[tonyfish58]

“I have fabricated things against God and have imputed to Him words which He has not spoken.”
~MUHAMMAD (Al-Tabari 6:111)

This I found reputes this interpretation of this passage. It is obviously by a Muslim, so it is passionate. But it just goes to show if you look to divide you will, if you look to unite you will - every one has this choice.

This is in fact such a weak and stupid argument made by some Christians , and they desperately and shamelessly use it to disprove the prophethood of Muhammed.

Link to full discussion - norasensation.wordpress.com/2008/10/16/i-have-fabricated-things-against-god-is-a-lie-against-prophet-muhammed-peace-be-upon-him/

So this argument that Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) openly said that he lied is just PATHETIC and CHILDISH as can be seen. Making use of the weakest of weak narrations is the job of the HYPOCRITES.

I bear witness there’s no god but Allah, and Muhammed is his final messenger…

And Allah knows the best…

Well I guess that says it all

 

[doormouse73]

“I have fabricated things against God and have imputed to Him words which He has not spoken.”
~MUHAMMAD (Al-Tabari 6:111)

This I found reputes this interpretation of this passage. It is obviously by a Muslim, so it is passionate. But it just goes to show if you look to divide you will, if you look to unite you will - every one has this choice.

This is in fact such a weak and stupid argument made by some Christians , and they desperately and shamelessly use it to disprove the prophethood of Muhammed.

Link to full discussion - norasensation.wordpress.com/2008/10/16/i-have-fabricated-things-against-god-is-a-lie-against-prophet-muhammed-peace-be-upon-him/

So this argument that Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) openly said that he lied is just PATHETIC and CHILDISH as can be seen. Making use of the weakest of weak narrations is the job of the HYPOCRITES.

I bear witness there’s no god but Allah, and Muhammed is his final messenger…

And Allah knows the best…

Well I guess that says it all

But how can Mohamed be his final messenger when you worship the bab/ Baha’i ?

And please with what you have been presented to you about Jesus Cheist don’t talk about weak arguments. At least Jesus never told Lies.

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

PR It is said that there was an earthquake and that the stone rolled away. If this was the case, that could have been a reason. All of this is beside the point. If it is unacceptable to ask questions and use reason and logic in an approach to religion, we are left with just nodding our heads.

To say “there can be no other reason, save for deceit” sets aside some very “reasonable” reasons. There are two marked grave sites for Sitting Bull that I am aware of. His body is not buried in either one of them. The family of Crazy Horse also took his body away to an unknown spot to keep the whites from carting his bones off to a museum.

 

[tonyfish58]

But how can Mohamed be his final messenger when you worship the Bab/ Baha’i ?

And please with what you have been presented to you about Jesus Christ don’t talk about weak arguments. At least Jesus never told Lies.

Please note we worship the One and Only God. We do this through the Manifestation of this day.

Muhammad had the last revelation of Prophesy about the end times the promised day of God. The Bab ushered in the Day of Fulfillment of all Prophesy of the past. There are manifold meaning to Religious Scripture. The truth is great and we know so little.

No Baha’i ever accused Jesus of Lying. Trustworthiness & Truthfulness one of Baha’u’llah’s greatest virtues and gift for Mankind. His son was left for us as a living example of all the virtues, we are told to live our life as Abdul’Baha Did! If you look you will see that Baha’is are known for these virtues. As Christians should not you also strive for these virtues as do we as Baha’is. Link to writings - info.bahai.org/article-1-8-2-2.html

If one does not understand something, this does not necessarily mean it is a lie.

When you were in grade 1 were all the lessons taught by grade 2 Teachers through to University Lectures a Lie? Or were you just not ready for them?

Regards Tony

 

[Servant19]

Jesus is the Lamb of God, promised since Abraham was stopped by an angel from killing Isaac, foreshadowed at Passover. Jesus is Truth and Truth never has to be approved of. Many times it is not. Yet the truth remains. Once again, why would anyone think that Jesus needed anyone’s approval? He is God.

In like manner, my friend, Bahaullah is the Return of the Son of God in the Glory if the Father, promised to mankind since the inception of Aboriginal and indigenous religions way way way before Abraham. Bahaullah is Truth and Truth never has to be approved of. Many times it is not. Yet the truth remains. Once again, why would anyone think that Bahaullah needed anyone’s approval?

We share the same reality in both Human Identities.

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

Sen_McGlinn:
Oops - my response got lost in transmission.

Briefly, the trouble with the stolen body theory is that, if the early Church in Jerusalem had a secret tomb where the body of Jesus was buried (or an empty tomb where he had been laid and resurrected), this would surely have been a major fact about the Jerusalem church, giving it preeminence above other Christian churches, a site of pilgrimage, the fact would have been mentioned by someone. The most likely explanation of “what actually happened” is that the disciples at Jerusalem, immediately after the events, did not know what had happened to Jesus’ body after the crucifixion. We have more historical certainty about the work of the Spirit (Jesus’ transformation of the lives of his followers) than about the biography of Jesus.