BAHA'I thread III - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[Servant19]

There is only one Son of God; The Father has no other. His name is Jesus. You should at least open your mind enough to try to understand the Christian standpoint. There can be no other or we deny the very identity and mission of Christ. If Christ is who he claimed to be and proved to be through his life, death and resurrection, then Baha’u’llah cannot be who he claims to be. It is as simple as that.

Yes Steve, there is only one Son of God, but what is the exact definition of “Son of God”?

We know that it’s not a case of God became Mary’s husband and they procreated to give birth to Jesus, so what exactly is a “Son” of God?

I’m open to try and understand the Christian viewpoint, but this is in the realm of “unknown”, or “incredibly little known” since God is undefinable, so making statements such as “Bahaullah cannot be who He said He is” really is not as simple as that…

There are a lot of blanket statements made which begs the question, “how do you know?”

“Observe the Fire of Moses! Behold the Snow-White Brightness! See thou that the Sinaitic Bosom raineth down from the Radiant Palm”.

Baha’u’llah was the Voice that radiated out of the Burning Bush. What does all this mean? Reflection is essential…

At the very least we should all hold off from any absolute statements, to preserve our humility before our Creator.

 

[PRmerger]

Steve,
. The Jewish traditions were similarly handed down, were they not? Is it wrong for someone 3000 years later to question whether it was literal or metaphorical the stories of manna descending from heaven or Jonah being swallowed by a great fish?

There is nothing wrong with asking. And the answer is given by the Church, which gave us these stories.

Is it wrong for me to ask if the execution of Mona was simply a metaphorical story? Maybe it really didn’t occur, daler. Maybe it was just a story that took off on the internet.

 

[PRmerger]

Hi Steve, where can we study the original Aramaic teachings of the early Church?

The original teachings of the Church in Aramaic were oral, Servant.

What was contained on papyrus was written in Greek most likely.

 

[PRmerger]

Hi Steve,

I think it is fair to say that there is a vast number of Christians (Catholics included) who say that non-Christians are going to hell, especially when very reasonable arguments are presented which may counter traditional Christian thinking.

You may be mistaking the utterances of some Catholics with what the Catholic Church actually teaches.

The teaching of the CC is that it is beyond our paygrade to declare anyone to be in hell.

And if there is any Catholic that you are in dialogue with that tells you that you are going to hell, you can tell him with an air of superiority that you actually know the teachings of the Catholic Church better than he does because you know that what he is telling you is contrary to the Church.

 

[PRmerger]

What right did Jesus have to overthrow this traditional authority?

You seem to be operating under a lot of misapprehensions regarding Catholic teaching.

Jesus did not "overthrow this traditional authority’.

He, in fact, supported it. He, in fact, commanded his disciples to obey the Jewish leaders.

 

[PRmerger]

Oops - my response got lost in transmission.

Briefly, the trouble with the stolen body theory is that, if the early Church in Jerusalem had a secret tomb where the body of Jesus was buried (or an empty tomb where he had been laid and resurrected), this would surely have been a major fact about the Jerusalem church, giving it preeminence above other Christian churches, a site of pilgrimage, the fact would have been mentioned by someone.

Exactly.

In order to subscribe to the stolen body theory one must suspend any kind of logic and reason, and it begets a multitude of questions no one seems to be willing to address.

To wit: why? And then who lied about the body being actually resurrected? And why did these disciples die horrible deaths defending their lie? And why when they were tortured did no one confess, “We actually stole the body!”

 

[PRmerger]

Yes Steve, there is only one Son of God, but what is the exact definition of “Son of God”?

It signifies the unique and eternal relationship between the 2 Persons of the Triune Godhead.

It indicates that God the Son is consubstantial with God the Father.

It affirms His eternal pre-existence.

 

[rinnie]

Dear pablope Yes the quote is from the Gospel of John, with Jesus explaining how He had more to tell the Apostles but that they would not be able to bear it at that time.

Now two of your friends have said this was fulfilled by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. Now Pentecost was 50 days after the resurrection of Christ, was it not?
I am surprised I would have to explain this.

I can’t believe the explanation that I have been given, as Jesus said he had much to tell, He even explained that the Spirit of Truth would not only explain these things but would even show things to come.

And yet I have been given no new teachings, or had explained the future things that would be shown, so for me your teaching that the Holy Spirit fulfilled this at Pentecost is not true.

I can’t believe you guys are still here, and at it again

Okay now lets hit on the Spirit of Truth, The Spirit of Truth will come which it had on Pentecost.

Now go back and remember how Peter and the Apostles hid? Now think, they hid until the Spirit of Truth came on Pentecost. Remember how the tongues of fire came to rest on each of them.

Now it is then when the Spirt of Truth entered them so they could teach and preach the good news.

Remember how, when the teaching began they all heard it it their own language?

Peter and the Apostles received the H.S. on that day and the truth became known to them.

They received the gifts of prophecy word of knowledge word of Wisdom, Just as Christ said they would.

The Spirit speaks whatever he hears. Jesus passed on to us the truth from the Father, and now the truth of Christ is passed on through the Disciples of Christ.

Now you are getting quite confused I believe on the teaching of the Holy Spirit of what to come. continued…

 

[arthra]

You still have not addressed the fact that the Church held this belief before the New Testament was written and nearly 4000 years before it was canonized. The early Church, the one’s who spoke Aramaic, believed in the bodily resurrection of Jesus because they had either witnessed him or had been given testimonies (in Aramaic) by those who had. Translation has nothing at all to do with it.

By the way, the creeds are the surviving teachings of Jesus, in a nutshell.

Steve,

Thanks for your post.

I’ll just give a few reasons for my position on this… I realize you may totally disagree.

The church developed over time and was fragmented from the earliest times…Read Acts and the epistles. I think you may mean 400 years rather than 4000…till the scripture was canonized, there were a lot of varieties of what was "Christian " … The Church Councils were meant to standardize them…as it was Arianism and other forms were extremely popular…

You don’t know for sure what were the beliefs of the earliest Christians…some hints were provided about James and the church in Jerusalem… but they also had a lot of pressure from the Jewish community and were later accused of being Judaisers…so they were pressured from both sides… After Jerusalem was destroyed there was the diaspora so they were on the run along with other Jews.

Translation has a lot to do with it! Aramaic had it’s own idioms and manners of expression … when translated into a language like Greek it was not so easy.

Anyway these are just a few issues.

My own view on the disposition of the physical remains of Jesus which is not an official Baha’i view follows:

One point was raised about what happened to the body of Jesus…

Consider that Joseph of Aramathea was the last person to have custody of the body according to the Gospels…

After the burial of Jesus he (meaning Jospeph of Aramathea) is not mentioned again except in maybe an extraneous gospel or two not accepted in the canon.

No contact is recorded of Joseph communicating at all with the apostles.

We know Joseph was a secret disciple and he feared those who were persecuting Jesus and the disciples…

In the case of the Bab after His martyrdom the remains were hidden and moved around for fifty years until interred on Mount Carmel …

As far as we know there was no such opportuni9ty to inter the remains of His Holiness the Christ in a public place and combine that with the destruction of Jerusalem and the prohibition of Jews to enter Aelia Capitolina …

Just some thoughts…

 

[rinnie]

Now the Spirit of truth guides his disciples on all truth. He will elebrate on truth ALREADY REVEALED and apply it to the teachings of Christ.

The Spirit of Truth is applied to our lives today. And to the lives of those to come.

Do you understand that?

The truth has been revealed. God did not hide truth from us. Christ taught us I am the way the Light and the Truth all that follow me shall never die.

Nothing in that truth has changed nor never will.

But as lives progress and change the truth will not. The truth remains the same for now and for things to come.

Things that come up in our lives say fifty years from now.

Look at today. Say a couple have great careers and she gets pregnant. So do I contine to work she asks and wait to have the baby,. Have an abortion

The Church says no abortion. The world says yes, put that career first. Money above human life.’

The Church the Spirit of Truth works through today (things to come in the present) and says human life comes above all.

The Spirit of Truth the Holy Spirit applies the teaching of Christ back when, to the teaching and truth of Christ right now in our lives. Truth never changes. Times do.

Like a couple living out of marriage, back when it was today it is:shrug: But according to the word of God it is wrong and always will be.

So how does the Spirit of truth live in the world today and things to come. There you have it, Today its accepted in society. But it was not accepted in the time of Christ and now accepted in the Church today as well.

That is some small portion of truth if you need proof, that truth and the Holy Spirit is alive today as yesterday. God to the RCC and tell them you want to live without marriage and receive the Eucharist. See what happens.

And it will be he same answer given over a thousand years ago by St Peter.

 

[rinnie]

Steve,

Thanks for your post.

I’ll just give a few reasons for my position on this… I realize you may totally disagree.

The church developed over time and was fragmented from the earliest times…Read Acts and the epistles. I think you may mean 400 years rather than 4000…till the scripture was canonized, there were a lot of varieties of what was "Christian " … The Church Councils were meant to standardize them…as it was Arianism and other forms were extremely popular…

You don’t know for sure what were the beliefs of the earliest Christians…some hints were provided about James and the church in Jerusalem… but they also had a lot of pressure from the Jewish community and were later accused of being Judaisers…so they were pressured from both sides… After Jerusalem was destroyed there was the diaspora so they were on the run along with other Jews.

Translation has a lot to do with it! Aramaic had it’s own idioms and manners of expression … when translated into a language like Greek it was not so easy.

Anyway these are just a few issues.

My own view on the disposition of the physical remains of Jesus which is not an official Baha’i view follows:

One point was raised about what happened to the body of Jesus…

Consider that Joseph of Aramathea was the last person to have custody of the body according to the Gospels…

After the burial of Jesus he (meaning Jospeph of Aramathea) is not mentioned again except in maybe an extraneous gospel or two not accepted in the canon.

No contact is recorded of Joseph communicating at all with the apostles.

We know Joseph was a secret disciple and he feared those who were persecuting Jesus and the disciples…

In the case of the Bab after His martyrdom the remains were hidden and moved around for fifty years until interred on Mount Carmel …

As far as we know there was no such opportuni9ty to inter the remains of His Holiness the Christ in a public place and combine that with the destruction of Jerusalem and the prohibition of Jews to enter Aelia Capitolina …

Just some thoughts…

Huh? After Jesus was crucified he was guarded so the body could not be taken. What did Joseph have to even do with this. Only that he gave Christ the place to be buried which by the way fulfilled scripture.

 

[arthra]

Rinnie,

Unsure about your post but thanks for posting…

The Spirit of Truth is a great theme

CXVI. O kings of Christendom! Heard ye not the saying of Jesus, the Spirit of God, “I go away, and come again unto you”? Wherefore, then, did ye fail, when He did come again unto you in the clouds of heaven, to draw nigh unto Him, that ye might behold His face, and be of them that attained His Presence? In another passage He saith: “When He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth.” And yet, behold how, when He did bring the truth, ye refused to turn your faces towards Him, and persisted in disporting yourselves with your pastimes and fancies. Ye welcomed Him not, neither did ye seek His Presence, that ye might hear the verses of God from His own mouth, and partake of the manifold wisdom of the Almighty, the All-Glorious, the All-Wise.

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 246)

and yes we Baha’is agree that marriage is sanctified. Baha’i marriage requires the consent of all the parents of the prospective bride and groom… If you’d like to learn more ask about it!

 

[rinnie]

Also just curious.

The whole O.T. pretty much takes on the prophecy of the comming of Christ.

From the way he would be born, where, to whom, how he would die, return on the 3rd day etc. Jesus fulfilled it all to the T.

Now Jesus said there would be NO OTHER prophets. He is it. He said all that would come is the Holy Spirit to the Church to guide us into all truth until the end of age.

At the end of age he would return the same as he left to separate the good from from the bad and the dead in the grave would be raised up and reunited with the soul. Pretty much case closed there.

Now he predicted that many would come in his name to sway us from the truth but to follow the Church.

Now can you show me ONE teaching of Christ that you believe that is a lie? Just One. Or any of his teaching’s back when that don’t or could not be applied to our lives today.

Also could you show me ONE teaching of Baha’i that you feel that could trump the word of Jesus Christ. Just One. Just curious

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie,

Unsure about your post but thanks for posting…

The Spirit of Truth is a great theme

CXVI. O kings of Christendom! Heard ye not the saying of Jesus, the Spirit of God, “I go away, and come again unto you”? Wherefore, then, did ye fail, when He did come again unto you in the clouds of heaven, to draw nigh unto Him, that ye might behold His face, and be of them that attained His Presence? In another passage He saith: “When He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth.” And yet, behold how, when He did bring the truth, ye refused to turn your faces towards Him, and persisted in disporting yourselves with your pastimes and fancies. Ye welcomed Him not, neither did ye seek His Presence, that ye might hear the verses of God from His own mouth, and partake of the manifold wisdom of the Almighty, the All-Glorious, the All-Wise.

My post (rinnie) Some how it got messed up.

Because when Jesus said I will go away and come again to you. He knew he was going to die on the Cross and come back again in 3 days.

Jesus did not have to die. Even Pilate said (not exact words) that I can choose if you live or die. What did Jesus say, He said more or less you have no power only the power I give to you right now.

Jesus knew he had to die, for US. He came to DIE. If you can accept the teaching of the Trinity at all think of it this way. God did not kill his Son. God became Human and suffered in a human way the worst way as the Son of God to show us his love for us.

It was GOD who died on the Cross as the SON. There was no human pain spared in this suffering. There was no physical or mental pain Jesus does not know on a human level.

It was God made Man who through Jesus who gave us a new level to relate to God.

It is why humans can relate to God easier through Jesus, It is by Jesus we can come to understand God in a human but unperfect way.

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 246)

and yes we Baha’is agree that marriage is sanctified. Baha’i marriage requires the consent of all the parents of the prospective bride and groom… If you’d like to learn more ask about it!

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie,

Unsure about your post but thanks for posting…

The Spirit of Truth is a great theme

CXVI. O kings of Christendom! Heard ye not the saying of Jesus, the Spirit of God, “I go away, and come again unto you”? Wherefore, then, did ye fail, when He did come again unto you in the clouds of heaven, to draw nigh unto Him, that ye might behold His face, and be of them that attained His Presence? In another passage He saith: “When He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth.” And yet, behold how, when He did bring the truth, ye refused to turn your faces towards Him, and persisted in disporting yourselves with your pastimes and fancies. Ye welcomed Him not, neither did ye seek His Presence, that ye might hear the verses of God from His own mouth, and partake of the manifold wisdom of the Almighty, the All-Glorious, the All-Wise.

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 246)

and yes we Baha’is agree that marriage is sanctified. Baha’i marriage requires the consent of all the parents of the prospective bride and groom… If you’d like to learn more ask about it!

Please understand the Spirit of Truth is not a theme. The Spirit of Truth is God in the Trinity.

 

[arthra]

Rinnie,

Thanks again for your posts…

Just a suggestion …Try not to mix my post with your own. It helps to keep things clear so there’s no misunderstandings.

I wanted to suggest something that may be useful for you

bible-researcher.com/parallels3.html

Gives a fairly good comparison of the Gospels.

Believing in Jesus Christ I cannot think of any verse that has come down to us that would be a “lie”. We do know He promised to return…and we Baha’is believe that “return” was fulfilled.

*Likewise the address of the angels to the people of Galilee, “That this Christ will return in the same way and that He will descend from heaven,” is a spiritual address. For when Christ appeared, He came from heaven, although He was outwardly born from the womb of Mary. For He said: “No man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven.”

He said: “I came down from heaven and likewise will go to heaven.” By “heaven” is not meant this infinite phenomenal space, but “heaven” signifies the word of the divine kingdom which is the supreme station and seat of the Sun of Truth.

To be brief: The mysteries of the Holy Books are many and require explanation and elucidation. I hope thine insight will be so opened that the divine mysteries may become manifest and clear.*

(Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v1, p. 192)

 

[eddie_too]

who, in this world, speaks for the bahai religion?

is there someone, in this world, who is responsible for providing the true interpretations of the bahai’s prophets’ teachings?

 

[arthra]

who, in this world, speaks for the bahai religion?

is there someone, in this world, who is responsible for providing the true interpretations of the bahai’s prophets’ teachings?

Thanks for your post!

Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi are the recognize Interpreters of the Writings. The last word on interpretations…

When any Baha’i speaks to an issue they will clarify it is their own view or will cite the Writings directly.

 

[eddie_too]

it is true that there were many, immediately after the death of Jesus, who tried to piggyback upon His life and teachings.

there have also been many who attempted to piggyback on Jesus ever since. for the most prominent examples, try mohammed, joseph smith, and the founder of the bahai religion (whatever his name is).

however, the concept of apostolic succession (established within His Church by Jesus) provided men in every generation who had received Christ’s true teachings from a predecessor who had received Christ’s true teachings from a predecessor.

this is why we have sacred tradition. this is why we have a bible. the true successors to the apostles knew intimately what Jesus did and taught. they alone were qualified to determine which of the early post-biblical writings were faithful to the teachings of Christ that they had received from their predecessors, the twelve apostles themselves.

that is why arianism, pelagianism, modalism and all of the rest were rejected. those teachings were not in agreement with what the apostles had learned from Jesus.

so, yes, there have always been people who have misinterpreted the life and teachings of Jesus.

however, Jesus knew the nature of fallen mankind and He established apostolic succession to ensure what He had given us would remain with us.

i do not understand why it is so difficult to believe that the teachings of Jesus have been truthfully and faithfully handed down for nearly two millenium through the successors to the apostles.

i also do not understand why a person would believe that it is right to interpret sacred scripture differently from the interpretations of those who wrote and preserved sacred scripture.

 

[eddie_too]

“Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi are the recognize Interpreters of the Writings”

who recognizes them? why are they the recognized intepreters?

do all bahai follow their interpretations? are there no disputes about spiritual matters among the thousands of bahai living in the world today?