Baha'i V

[rinnie]

Rinnie,
. As the physical clouds rain down from the heavens upon the earth, which is the recipient of the outpouring, and the fields blossom, grow, and yield fruit, so to are meant the terms of a “new heaven and new earth” in a spiritual sense.

. The New Heaven of Revelation rains upon the soil of the New Earth of men’s hearts, and those who receive the divine bounty of this revelation and accept the spiritual outpouring blossom, grow, and yield their fruit.

. Those who turn away from the New Heaven, holding solely to last year’s rain, remain in the old condition of the soil which has long since begun to dry up. Hence, the weeds of sufferning, death, and sadness are all that appear. The violence continues, not because there is no “new heaven and new earth”, but because people are veiled from it.

.

But Jesus said nothing of people being veiled from it. The word of God says when Jesus comes down from heaven, the world will end as we know it.

This world has not ended, and its still as we know it. There has always been sin, hate, disease, death, violence etc.

How did any of this end in your opinion?

And you are confusing me here if this is the new heaven why is it like the old earth, and why is there still death. Jesus said every tear will be dried, and perfect happiness, and no more suffering and death.

SO what did we all miss the boat then?

 

[rinnie]

now we are getting somewhere.

as nick44 posted, “The meeting with God, through His Manifestation, is, for those who desire to meet Him, the gateway to the Paradise of knowing and loving Him, and living in love with all His creatures. Those, on the other hand, who prefer their own way to God’s way, as revealed by the Manifestation, thereby consign themselves to the hell of selfishness, error and enmity.”

believe what bahaullah taught or go to hell.

Oh My!

 

[daler]

But Jesus said nothing of people being veiled from it. The word of God says when Jesus comes down from heaven, the world will end as we know it.

This world has not ended, and its still as we know it. There has always been sin, hate, disease, death, violence etc.

How did any of this end in your opinion?

And you are confusing me here if this is the new heaven why is it like the old earth, and why is there still death. Jesus said every tear will be dried, and perfect happiness, and no more suffering and death.

SO what did we all miss the boat then?

Rinne,
. People have this literal understanding of the Rapture, in which they think believers will simply “disappear” into the air and vanish.

Luke 17:34-36 - “I tell you in that night there will be two men in one bed:The one will be taken and the other will be left.”

. “Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.” Mat 24:40
… and vs 41 “Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.”

… vs 42 “Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.”…

. If, in hindsight, and with insight, we view this as the coming of the Lord as a Thief in the Night, those whom He takes with Him are the believers, having heard the New Heaven of Revelation, they are standing upon the New Earth of understanding, for they have received Him, and know Him, as in: “My sheep know My voice”,

. Then those who are left are they who do not hear Him, reject the New Heaven of Revelation, and thus do not go with Him on this spiritual journey to the New Earth. They are then left with the old heaven and earth of a past Dispensation, as were the Jews who failed to recognize Christ as the Messiah, and go with Him.

. The word aeon /ˈiːɒn/, also spelled eon, originally means “life” or “being”, … "I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

. People have mistranslated this verse as “end of the world”, which is incorrect.

. That a new age (“not” as in ‘new agers’!) has dawned should be accompanied by signs that “Knowledge shall increase”, as in Daniel 12:4 pertaining to the time of the end:

. “But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.”

. Clearly, as we speak over the internet, in the age of MRIs and the Hubble, etc, etc, Knowledge has increased. Has it not? and many are certainly running to and fro all over the planet. While this may sound simplistic, it represents a stark change from the past many thousands of years in human history.
. Since the dawn of this new age occurred in 1844 with the appearance of the Bab, Who was as John the Baptist to Christ, much has indeed changed, exponentially.

. As to there still being death, physically this shall always be true. What this verse implies is that there shall be no more spiritual death:

. "… By the terms “life” and “death,” spoken of in the scriptures, is intended the life of faith and the death of unbelief. The generality of the people, owing to their failure to grasp the meaning of these words, rejected and despised the person of the Manifestation, deprived themselves of the light of His divine guidance, and refused to follow the example of that immortal Beauty. …

… Even as Jesus said: “Ye must be born again” [John iii, 7]. Again He saith: “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit” [John iii, 5–6]. The purpose of these words is that whosoever in every dispensation is born of the Spirit and is quickened by the breath of the Manifestation of Holiness, he verily is of those that have attained unto “life” and “resurrection” and have entered into the “paradise” of the love of God. And whosoever is not of them, is condemned to “death” and “deprivation,” to the “fire” of unbelief, and to the “wrath” of God. …

 

[daler]

SO what did we all miss the boat then?

Rinnie dear,
. The boat is still at the dock. Its as Jesus said in Matthew 24:37-38:

. “But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. “For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, …"

. Hence, people can either belly up to the bar, party on, or pick up their boarding passes. Believe me, there are a lot of Baha’is who partied on for quite awhile, myself included, until something started to ring true about all of this.

. Now we find ourselves summoning our buddies to the boat, handing them a cup of coffee, as it were, and dusting off the seat next to us…

 

[SteveVH]

Rinne,
. People have this literal understanding of the Rapture, in which they think believers will simply “disappear” into the air and vanish.

Yes, some people do, but Catholics do not. It is the invention of some modern sects of Christianity.

Luke 17:34-36 - “I tell you in that night there will be two men in one bed:The one will be taken and the other will be left.”

. “Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.” Mat 24:40
… and vs 41 “Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.”

… vs 42 “Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.”…

. If, in hindsight, and with insight, we view this as the coming of the Lord as a Thief in the Night, those whom He takes with Him are the believers, having heard the New Heaven of Revelation, they are standing upon the New Earth of understanding, for they have received Him, and know Him, as in: “My sheep know My voice”,

. Then those who are left are they who do not hear Him, reject the New Heaven of Revelation, and thus do not go with Him on this spiritual journey to the New Earth. They are then left with the old heaven and earth of a past Dispensation, as were the Jews who failed to recognize Christ as the Messiah, and go with Him.

. The word aeon /ˈiːɒn/, also spelled eon, originally means “life” or “being”, … "I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

. People have mistranslated this verse as “end of the world”, which is incorrect.

. That a new age (“not” as in ‘new agers’!) has dawned should be accompanied by signs that “Knowledge shall increase”, as in Daniel 12:4 pertaining to the time of the end:

. “But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.”

. Clearly, as we speak over the internet, in the age of MRIs and the Hubble, etc, etc, Knowledge has increased. Has it not? and many are certainly running to and fro all over the planet. While this may sound simplistic, it represents a stark change from the past many thousands of years in human history.
. Since the dawn of this new age occurred in 1844 with the appearance of the Bab, Who was as John the Baptist to Christ, much has indeed changed, exponentially.

. As to there still being death, physically this shall always be true. What this verse implies is that there shall be no more spiritual death:

. "… By the terms “life” and “death,” spoken of in the scriptures, is intended the life of faith and the death of unbelief. The generality of the people, owing to their failure to grasp the meaning of these words, rejected and despised the person of the Manifestation, deprived themselves of the light of His divine guidance, and refused to follow the example of that immortal Beauty. …

… Even as Jesus said: “Ye must be born again” [John iii, 7]. Again He saith: “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit” [John iii, 5–6]. The purpose of these words is that whosoever in every dispensation is born of the Spirit and is quickened by the breath of the Manifestation of Holiness, he verily is of those that have attained unto “life” and “resurrection” and have entered into the “paradise” of the love of God. And whosoever is not of them, is condemned to “death” and “deprivation,” to the “fire” of unbelief, and to the “wrath” of God. …

As to the rest of your post I think it is best that I hold my tongue at this point.

 

[daler]

Yes, some people do, but Catholics do not. It is the invention of some modern sects of Christianity.

As to the rest of your post I think it is best that I hold my tongue at this point.

Steve,
. My buddy, you have a good tongue. No need to hold it. Ok?

. I wish I could buy you a cup of coffee and a donut, and chat face to face, with you, Arthra, Rinnie, Vouthon, Nick, and a few others…

 

[SteveVH]

Steve,
. My buddy, you have a good tongue. No need to hold it. Ok?

. I wish I could buy you a cup of coffee and a donut, and chat face to face, with you, Arthra, Rinnie, Vouthon, Nick, and a few others…

Would that be the coffee of my imagination and the donut of my desire, or would it be something I can actually eat and drink?

 

[eddie_too]

perhaps dialogue would be more fruitful once it was understood why bahaullah said Jesus lied when Jesus said He would raise His body from the grave.

that is a major sticking point for christians.

 

[daler]

Look closely at the words of Scripture:

Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” (Revelation 21:1-4)

It is obvious to anyone who turns on the news in the morning that this has not yet been accomplished. Not even close. When Christ truly comes, it will be accomplished and all of creation will be changed in a very real, not metaphorical, way. We only have to look around us to know that Satan still prowls the world seeking whom he may devour. The battle has ended in eternity, but is still present in time. Therefore we still wait in joyful hope for the coming of the Lord.

Steve,
This is pretty well addressed in a short Commentary on the Twelfth Chapter of the Revelation of St John, by Abdul Baha, in Some Answered Questions:

reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/saq-13.html

. The first 3 paragraphs are as follows:

. "We have before explained that what is most frequently meant by the Holy City, the Jerusalem of God, which is mentioned in the Holy Book, is the Law of God. It is compared sometimes to a bride, and sometimes to Jerusalem, and again to the new heaven and earth. So in chapter 21, verses 1, 2 and 3 of the Revelation of St. John, it is said: “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God.”

. Notice how clear and evident it is that the first heaven and earth signify the former Law. For it is said that the first heaven and earth have passed away and there is no more sea—that is to say, that the earth is the place of judgment, and on this earth of judgment there is no sea, meaning that the teachings and the Law of God will entirely spread over the earth, and all men will enter the Cause of God, and the earth will be completely inhabited by believers; therefore, there will be no more sea, for the dwelling place and abode of man is the dry land. In other words, at that epoch the field of that Law will become the pleasure-ground of man. Such earth is solid; the feet do not slip upon it.

. The Law of God is also described as the Holy City, the New Jerusalem. It is evident that the New Jerusalem which descends from heaven is not a city of stone, mortar, bricks, earth and wood. It is the Law of God which descends from heaven and is called new, for it is clear that the Jerusalem which is of stone and earth does not descend from heaven, and that it is not renewed; but that which is renewed is the Law of God.

Keep in mind that the Jews are still waiting for the Messiah, and always will be…

.

 

[daler]

Would that be the coffee of my imagination and the donut of my desire, or would it be something I can actually eat and drink?

HA HA HA !!!

“Hey Steve, I forgot my wallet. Do you have any metaphorical money you lend me? I’ll pay ya back in shekels…”

 

[tonyfish58]

perhaps dialogue would be more fruitful once it was understood why bahaullah said Jesus lied when Jesus said He would raise His body from the grave.

that is a major sticking point for christians.

Eddie - What man determines is a lie might just be the wrong way to think about it. It is worth considering, is it not?

Consider, I love a Christ that has fulfilled His Promise to the Letter! To do this we only have to change a few concepts from a material to a spiritual meaning.

After all is not the the real purpose, to become One in the Love of God in Spirit?

Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

HA HA HA !!!

“Hey Steve, I forgot my wallet. Do you have any metaphorical money you lend me? I’ll pay ya back in shekels…”

May be us Aussies are to far away to get Invited

I love Coffee and biscuits

Regards Tony

 

[eddie_too]

changing the meaning of words is a good way to lose the original meaning of the words.

still, Jesus was perfectly clear when He said He would raise His body from the dead.

what meaning did bahaullah give to those words of Jesus that makes you think the literal meaning was not the meaning Jesus meant and the meaning those who heard His words understood?

 

[eddie_too]

did bahaullah ever address Jesus’ words that He would raise His body from the grave?

it seems to me to be a pretty essential aspect of Jesus’ life and teachings.

if bahaullah did not address these words of Jesu, has any one ever come up with a reason bahaullah ignored them?

 

[tonyfish58]

changing the meaning of words is a good way to lose the original meaning of the words.

still, Jesus was perfectly clear when He said He would raise His body from the dead.

what meaning did bahaullah give to those words of Jesus that makes you think the literal meaning was not the meaning Jesus meant and the meaning those who heard His words understood?

I will give my opinion on this for just one example, there would be many others

I would consider the main Body of Christ to be His Teachings, thus this Body could again be raised when God determines that we as mankind have strayed far from the original intent of these writings.

There are many a meaning we could explore!

Regards Tony

 

[SteveVH]

Steve,
This is pretty well addressed in a short Commentary on the Twelfth Chapter of the Revelation of St John, by Abdul Baha, in Some Answered Questions:

reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/saq-13.html

. The first 3 paragraphs are as follows:

. "We have before explained that what is most frequently meant by the Holy City, the Jerusalem of God, which is mentioned in the Holy Book, is the Law of God. It is compared sometimes to a bride, and sometimes to Jerusalem, and again to the new heaven and earth. So in chapter 21, verses 1, 2 and 3 of the Revelation of St. John, it is said: “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God.”

. Notice how clear and evident it is that the first heaven and earth signify the former Law. For it is said that the first heaven and earth have passed away and there is no more sea—that is to say, that the earth is the place of judgment, and on this earth of judgment there is no sea, meaning that the teachings and the Law of God will entirely spread over the earth, and all men will enter the Cause of God, and the earth will be completely inhabited by believers; therefore, there will be no more sea, for the dwelling place and abode of man is the dry land. In other words, at that epoch the field of that Law will become the pleasure-ground of man. Such earth is solid; the feet do not slip upon it.

. The Law of God is also described as the Holy City, the New Jerusalem. It is evident that the New Jerusalem which descends from heaven is not a city of stone, mortar, bricks, earth and wood. It is the Law of God which descends from heaven and is called new, for it is clear that the Jerusalem which is of stone and earth does not descend from heaven, and that it is not renewed; but that which is renewed is the Law of God.

Keep in mind that the Jews are still waiting for the Messiah, and always will be…

And I don’t know of one Christian scholar or theologian that would agree with Mr. Abdul Baha. He bends everything to fit his preconceived notion, nothing more. It does not appear that he has addressed the fact that there will be no more death or suffering or mourning.

The heavenly Jerusalem is the dwelling of God. When it comes down God will dwell among us once again; not a “Manifestation of God”, but God. When God dwells with us there will be no more tears, suffering or death. Of course the New Jerusalem is not a city of stone, mortar, bricks and wood. It is heaven meeting earth. We actually already participate in the New Jerusalem each and every time we attend Mass.

 

[daler]

May be us Aussies are to far away to get Invited

I love Coffee and biscuits

Regards Tony

Hey Tony,
Could ya bring a couple of them ostrich eggs and make us an omelette? An’ hurry up about it, will ya mate?

 

[daler]

And I don’t know of one Christian scholar or theologian that would agree with Mr. Abdul Baha. He bends everything to fit his preconceived notion, nothing more.

Well, my friend, you better call your mommy and tell her to open her womb for you if you wanna be born again…

 

[daler]

changing the meaning of words is a good way to lose the original meaning of the words.

still, Jesus was perfectly clear when He said He would raise His body from the dead.

what meaning did bahaullah give to those words of Jesus that makes you think the literal meaning was not the meaning Jesus meant and the meaning those who heard His words understood?

Eddie my man,

. If we just look at Jesus’ own words: “Let the dead bury their dead”, it will give us a clue …

. When the fellow approached him about his father dying, and Jesus made the above statement, a literalist, like yourself, would be hard-pressed to allow anything other than that some dead people would have to arise from their deep sleep underground, get up and bury the man’s father, before getting back into the graves themselves and continuing their sleep.

. Or… we could look at it another way: Let them who are spiritually dead (who have eyes but see not, and ears but hear not) do the digging…

 

[eddie_too]

if we were desperate to appear holy, i suppose we could change the meaning.

but, Jesus was quite clear about what He meant. those pharisees who heard Him say it mocked Him and ridiculed Him for making such a claim.

just because bahaullah wrote flowery language that could be interpreted in many different ways and according to the sophist need of the moment does not require anyone to think that Jesus was being coy and elusive when He clearly, distinctly and without qualification told the jews that He would raise His body from the grave after three days.

it is clear from your comments here that neither you nor any other bahai have a working understanding of the teachings of Jesus Christ.

like i commented upon earlier, the bahai have no explanation for why none of those bahaullah designated as manifestations of God had any inkling of this role for them.

even satan can interpret, and has interpreted, sacred scripture for his own purposes.

it does not surprise me that a man would try to piggyback on the glory of Jesus Christ so as for that man to receive adulation from other men.