Baha'i V

[eddie_too]

the account of adam’s sin comes from the book of genesis. i was taught that genesis is a book from the old testament which itself was authored by the descendants of noah and abraham.

i was also taught that many of the descendants of abraham through isaac are jews.

so, i am not sure what you are talking about. maybe you mean the jews did not fully develop the doctrine of original sin?

for sure, genesis teaches that, before adam’s sin, mankind lived in harmony with its Creator. that is what is meant by the Garden of Eden. genesis also teaches that because of adam’s sin, mankind was cast out of the Garden of Eden.

that is one of the sources for the RCC’s doctrine of original sin.

most certainly, the jewish faith always taught that mankind’s relationship with its Creator was in need of repair. sin is a constant element of the jewish faith, from the time of adam to the present day.

so, maybe you could explain a little more your idea that the jewish faith said nothing about original sin.

 

[arthra]

Eddie,

Baha’is also have a view of what you call “Adam’s sin”…

Abdul-Baha explains:

*Observe that if, according to the suppositions of the People of the Book,[1] the meaning were taken in its exoteric sense, it would be absolute injustice and complete predestination. If Adam sinned by going near the forbidden tree, what was the sin of the glorious Abraham, and what was the error of Moses the Interlocutor? What was the crime of Noah the Prophet? What was the transgression of Joseph the Truthful? What was the iniquity of the Prophets of God, and what was the trespass of John the Chaste? Would the justice of God have allowed these enlightened Manifestations, on account of the sin of Adam, to find torment in hell until Christ came and by the sacrifice of Himself saved them from excruciating tortures? Such an idea is beyond every law and rule and cannot be accepted by any intelligent person.
*
[1 Jews and Christians.]
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 124)

 

[eddie_too]

where do you get the idea that all of these people were without sin?

where do you get the idea that all of these people were in torment in the afterlife until Christ’s sacrifice?

such assertions, made by the bahai, are not RC teachings.

they are bahai straw men set up for the bahai’s purposes and these assertions are completely unrelated to RC teachings.

 

[Red_Sox_1]

We are getting off topic a bit. It seems obvious that Christians believe that the Old Testament teaches original sin. But the Jewish believe the Torah and Tanakh and “the Old Testament” does not teach original sin.

But going back to what we were discussing – what is the Christian response to what I presented in my last post ?

It seems that discussion abruptly stopped without a conclusion and you moved on to a different topic

 

[eddie_too]

red sox,

to which of your posts are you referring? can you give the number?

 

[tonyfish58]

what Jesus did that was new was that He provided an infinite sacrifice that atoned for our sinfulness,

before Jesus, finite man could never, in justice, atone for their offenses against their infinite Creator.

Jesus being both fully human and fully divine was able through His sacrificial death on the cross offer and infinite sacrifice to our infinite Creator on our behalf.

through Jesus, mankind, who had been deemed unworthy of union with their Creator because through the sin of Adam all who followed were born into sin and the sinful and the perfect cannot be perfectly united, were redeemed worthy of union with their Creator.

without Jesus’ sacrifice, no human being would have the opportunity for perfect union with almighty God.

even after Jesus’ sacrifice, although mankind’s relationship with God has been renewed through it, individual human beings must still acknowledge and make their own through personal acceptance the graces God has made available to them through the sacrifice of His Son.

so, at a minimum, Jesus brings two new changes to mankind. first, He overcomes the consequences to mankind of adam’s sin. that consequence being the fact that all of mankind is born into sin from which there was no escape.

second, He enables every individual human to participate in the renewed (restored)relationship with their Creator.

for a RC, it is essential that all aspects of human nature are consistently addressed. this results in a faith system whereby both man’s intellect and his free will are fully involved in his relationship with his Creator. it is also why the resurrection of the body is essential to RC doctrine. a disembodied soul is not how man was created. man is created with both a body and a soul.

Eddie - I found this passage today that really hit me as to the majesty of God and His religions, it is well worth a read, I admire your love for Christ and I would hope you could see that this Love will never be Lost. It is written by Shoghi Effendi the Guardian and is a provisional translation. It talks about the Night of the Declaration of the Bab,

IMHO - The power of this utterance is nothing but amazing and world transforming in its majesty. It is a declaration of the ultimate power of God. What else can I say no words can describe it, I will let the quote explain itself, so here it is…
**
"How great the blessedness that pertains to this wondrous, this most marvellous century.

O sacred and holy Night! Upon thee be the most perfect and most glorious greetings!
Upon thee be the purest and most radiant salutations!

O solace of the Eye of Creation! O joyous Commencement of the Days of God! O Dawn of the most glorious and honoured Age! And inception of the sacred and majestic Century! Because of thy revelation, O Night, the most great portals were opened unto the face of creation, the most concealed Mystery did reveal Itself, the Most Pre-existent Light did shine forth. Through Thee the Straight Path was outstretched, and the breezes of life-giving Spirit were wafted forth unto all the nations. Because of remembering Thee, Abraham, the Friend of God would rejoice in His inmost heart, and Moses the Interlocutor would be glad in His inmost being, and Jesus Christ the Spirit of God would be enthralled with His entire being, and Muḥammad the loved One would bestir Himself. Because of Thy Advent the Concourse on High were joyous, and hallelujah’s of joy were raised from the cherubim, the saints, and the angels nigh unto God. Through Thee all earth and all the heavens were illumined, and in Thee all nights were resurrected, and from Thee all days sought light. The Night of Power circumambulated Thee. Because of thy advent, O Night, the Countenance of Existence wreathed into a smile!"**

All I can say is Wow!

The Night of the declaration of the Bab appears to have been the ushering in of all the promises of the Holy books of the past. A very momentous night indeed!

No religion of the past is rejected, they were fulfilled, again IMHO from my position as a Baha’i.

God Bless Regards Tony

 

[openmind77]

… The Baha’i Faith has united people from every single religious, cultural, socio-economical, racial and national background on the planet. The second most widespread religion on earth, wityh 160 years… Can you name one other “mereman” that has done that truly Godly act?

Second most widespread religion??? I am confused, but maybe I misunderstood your statement. Since when did the Bahai Faith become the second most widespread religion?

 

[Servant19]

Second most widespread religion??? I am confused, but maybe I misunderstood your statement. Since when did the Bahai Faith become the second most widespread religion?

Hi openmind

This is according to the Encycopedia Britannica in 2002

web.archive.org/web/20071212134124/http://www.britannica.com/eb/table?tocId=9394911

For your information, Bahaullah is also the return of Krishna, and the promised one of your religion too.

bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled/hindusa.htm

 

[daler]

this results in a faith system whereby both man’s intellect and his free will are fully involved in his relationship with his Creator. it is also why the resurrection of the body is essential to RC doctrine. a disembodied soul is not how man was created. man is created with both a body and a soul.

Eddie,
. Yes, this is very good that both our intellect and free will be fully involved in this process, for both are endowments from God unto mankind, and it is our obligation to use these gifts.

. While the physical resurrection of the body may essential to your understanding, it is not essential to Baha’i understanding, and this difference in view appears to be a challenge intellectually, and deserves further attention.

. Let us consider the creation of the soul from a spiritual standpoint, rather than a physical. We normally consider conception to be physical, so let us consider it first as spiritual. From this perspective, the soul is the creation of God, eternal, and intended to come to know God and worship Him. How is the soul to achieve its fulfillment in this regard?

. First, upon its creation, God bestows a physical construction upon the soul that it may become educated, develop its will, and progress through this physical world even as the embryo of a chick progresses until it outgrows the need for the egg shell which has housed and protected it, at which time, it emerges from the physical confines of the shell to the outer world, progressing further.

. So too, in the womb of our mother we develop physical attributes in order to equip us for the time when we emerge from the womb. While in the womb, we do not need eyes, for there is nothing to see. We do not need feet, for there is nowhere to go, etc.

. Take the analogy even further and consider that we are in a second womb in this life, developing our intellectual powers and will which, while useful and necessary for our term in this physical world, are actually preparing us for entry in the spiritual world. We can no more imagine what that world is than the fetus could imagine what this world is, yet we are being prepared for it even as was the fetus in the womb for what we now experience and know to be our “life”.

. We become so attached to these limbs and members of our body, our eyes, our face, our hands and body, that we actually identify our selves, or our soul, with these physical instruments which, upon death, dissolve and return to the soil. At this point our soul exists without the physical elements, no longer dependent upon atoms and molecules for energy and a body and mind to develop the very intellect and will of which you speak.

. “Ye must be born again”, Jesus said. He was referring to our spiritual birth. When we attain to the knowledge of God, we make the greatest use of our intellect and fulfill its highest purpose. When we testify with our will, pick up our cross and follow Him, we abandon our will for His will, and soar upon the wings of the soul into spiritual worlds which are beyond this physical world.

. Using our God-given intellect and will, we can achieve a level of fulfillment infinitely beyond the mortal realm of the body and senses. To do this, however, we must feed upon the Word of God and graze upon the pastures of learning. This spiritual growth has a parallel in the physical world, which is but a shadow of the heavenly realm.

. “Man does not live by bread alone, but by “every Word” which the Mouth of the Lord shall utter.”

. As Baha’is, we believe that God has uttered more Words, and as every Word uttered by the Lord is essential to spiritual life, so too we must feed upon the gifts of God in the form of His new Revelation for us in this day, the Day of God, that we might continue to live. The yolk of yesterday is insufficient. It served for a term, but once digested, readies us for more food, outside the limited shell of understanding previously offered.

. “I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear it now (for you are still but a fetus inside the womb), howbeit, when He, the Spirit of Truth is come, He shall guide you unto all Truth”. This truth lies beyond the shell of old understanding, that limited set of Words revealed by Christ.

. Our mother fed us while in her womb from the placenta suited to our needs while at the same time preparing a crib and readying us for milk once we emerge, while our father prepares even more food for when we become adults and can feed upon more than mother’s milk. Thus, the Revelations of God eternally feed us when we are ready to emerge from prior stages of growth. It is one continuous process of Progressive Revelation and it leads to an Ever-Advancing Civilization.

. "There shall be a New Heaven (of Revelation) and a New Earth (of understanding the Word of God), and by this means the Lord’s Prayer shall finally be fulfilled:

. “Thy Kingdom (shall) come, They will (shall finally) be done, on earth as it is in heaven…”

 

[openmind77]

Hi openmind

This is according to the Encycopedia Britannica in 2002

web.archive.org/web/20071212134124/http://www.britannica.com/eb/table?tocId=9394911

For your information, Bahaullah is also the return of Krishna, and the promised one of your religion too.

bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled/hindusa.htm

I am still confused - the link, that you cite, says Bahai’s make up 0.1% of the world population - what is so widespread about that?

BTW, Hindu Avatars once they have come and gone, don’t come back. We don’t expect Krishna to come back. The next Avatar will be a new one, definitely not Krishna (or Bahaullah claiming to be Krishna).

 

[Servant19]

I am still confused - the link, that you cite, says Bahai’s make up 0.1% of the world population - what is so widespread about that?

BTW, Hindu Avatars once they have come and gone, don’t come back. We don’t expect Krishna to come back. The next Avatar will be a new one, definitely not Krishna (or Bahaullah claiming to be Krishna).

Thank you for your queries openmind

Yes, the concept of “widespread” refers to the number of countries, islands, territories etc that the religion’s adherents occupy.

According to this Britannica link, there are Baha’is living in 232 countries, second behind Christianity. The number of cultures represented by the Bahai Faith is on show in this video

This was the Bahai world congress in 1992
youtube.com/watch?v=lGV3zrSZrfo

(watch from 1 minute in)

 

[Servant19]

BTW, Hindu Avatars once they have come and gone, don’t come back. We don’t expect Krishna to come back. The next Avatar will be a new one, definitely not Krishna (or Bahaullah claiming to be Krishna).

Yes, of course, friend

In this world of Avatars, Baha’u’llah is not Krishna, but in the world of spirit, where the avatar state becomes less defined, they are of the same substance

 

[daler]

I am still confused - the link, that you cite, says Bahai’s make up 0.1% of the world population - what is so widespread about that?

BTW, Hindu Avatars once they have come and gone, don’t come back. We don’t expect Krishna to come back. The next Avatar will be a new one, definitely not Krishna (or Bahaullah claiming to be Krishna).

Openmind,
. Sadly, I gave away my last copy of the Bhagavad-Gita. Loved that book. I was in the Denver Ashram back in 1978 when AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada passed on. Always liked his rendition and commentary.

. The way I understand the “Return” is never the same “Person” returning, but more like that Mighty Wind which filled His sails, whether that be Buddha, Krsna, Christ, or Baha’u’llah

. So yes, indeed. When the “He” that whoever is waiting for appears, He is born a new baby into a human family, as always, and when He grows up, that Might Wind of God fills His sails and sends His message across the world.

.

 

[openmind77]

Thank you for your queries openmind

Yes, the concept of “widespread” refers to the number of countries, islands, territories etc that the religion’s adherents occupy.

According to this Britannica link, there are Baha’is living in 232 countries, second behind Christianity. The number of cultures represented by the Bahai Faith is on show in this video

This was the Bahai world congress in 1992
youtube.com/watch?v=lGV3zrSZrfo

(watch from 1 minute in)

Sorry, I should have figured that out. Just think - if you convert twenty one more people in twenty one different countries, yours will be the most widespread faith in the whole entire world!

OK, all kidding aside, I have great respect for Bahaullah as a great religious teacher as well as a very insightful person for knowing that all religions are valid and lead to the same Source. I am sure all his writings/teachings are equally insightful and valid.

However, you and your fellow Bahai’s should not exaggerate his influence too much. (Some other Bahai suggested that Bahaullah was responsible for all scientific progress in the last century including the spread of the internet - now Al Gore was at least alive when he suggested the same thing). For instance, Sai Baba of Shirdi an Indian mystic who lived around the same time as Bahaullah probably has a much bigger following than the seven million of Bahais - except that he did not found a new religion. Seven million world-wide in this age of instant communication is not a major impact on the entire world.

The other reason why you and your fellow Bahais should calm down (so to speak) is that the real Christ will be appearing pretty soon (maybe in a couple of years). This will be a great shock to you and your belief system. There is nothing wrong with your religion (I think it is just great and wonderful), but do not keep these wild expectations that your leader is the Avatar for everyone - I am afraid you will be soon very, very disappointed.

 

[Servant19]

Sorry, I should have figured that out. Just think - if you convert twenty one more people in twenty one different countries, yours will be the most widespread faith in the whole entire world!

OK, all kidding aside, I have great respect for Bahaullah as a great religious teacher as well as a very insightful person for knowing that all religions are valid and lead to the same Source. I am sure all his writings/teachings are equally insightful and valid.

However, you and your fellow Bahai’s should not exaggerate his influence too much. (Some other Bahai suggested that Bahaullah was responsible for all scientific progress in the last century including the spread of the internet - now Al Gore was at least alive when he suggested the same thing). For instance, Sai Baba of Shirdi an Indian mystic who lived around the same time as Bahaullah probably has a much bigger following than the seven million of Bahais - except that he did not found a new religion. Seven million world-wide in this age of instant communication is not a major impact on the entire world.

The other reason why you and your fellow Bahais should calm down (so to speak) is that the real Christ will be appearing pretty soon (maybe in a couple of years). This will be a great shock to you and your belief system. There is nothing wrong with your religion (I think it is just great and wonderful), but do not keep these wild expectations that your leader is the Avatar for everyone - I am afraid you will be soon very, very disappointed.

That’s very interesting my friend. What is the source for your inference that the real Christ will be upon us very soon?

Do you have any information on how we, too, can attain to your knowledge?

Also, I would not hold your breath about the Bahai population being 7 million, I think the next set of figures may well shock you

 

[openmind77]

That’s very interesting my friend. What is the source for your inference that the real Christ will be upon us very soon?

Do you have any information on how we, too, can attain to your knowledge?

Also, I would not hold your breath about the Bahai population being 7 million, I think the next set of figures may well shock you

There is not just one single source that says that the Return of the Christ will occur soon - it is multiple and many sources (even Billy Graham - who I don’t think that much of - said so just last month).

Even if the Bahai population doubles, it will still not be a major force in the world.

I don’t mean to minimize Bahaullah’s achievement. I find most of what he says logical and acceptable, but that still does not make him the equivalent of Jesus or any of the major Avatars.

I think you should promote your religion exclusively on the merits of Bahaullah’s teachings , and not by claiming that he is the Returned One (whoever that is) - because when the real One does return, your religion is in the danger of falling apart.

 

[arthra]

I think the verse in the Bhagavad Gita you’re thinking about is in the fourth chapter …seventh and eighth verses:

"Whenever and wherever it is sure that one weakens in righteousness and a predominance of injustice does manifest, o descendant of Bharata, at that time I do manifest Myself.*

"To liberate the seekers of truth, to take the power away from the wicked ones and to re-establish the way of the human principles, I do appear age after age.*

I loved the Bhagavad Gita when I first read it as a teenager. Later I met some of the translators Swami Prabhavananda and Christopher Isherwood.

Baha’is believe in the Manifestations of God that have appeared from time to time for just the purpose of reviving spiritual truth and restoring righteousness on earth.

 

[Servant19]

There is not just one single source that says that the Return of the Christ will occur soon - it is multiple and many sources (even Billy Graham - who I don’t think that much of - said so just last month).

You believe Billy Graham over Baha’u’llah?
I think that’s a relatively odd statement to make given you have already praised Baha’u’llah and yet you don’t think much of Billy Graham.

Does it make sense to you that someone would believe a person who he doesn’t think much of?

Is there anyone who you do admire MORE than Baha’u’llah that has claimed that Jesus has not returned yet?

Even if the Bahai population doubles, it will still not be a major force in the world.

I think you would agree that the purpose of religion is not become a “force” within the world, dear friend. What would you say is the purpose of any and all religions?

I don’t mean to minimize Bahaullah’s achievement. I find most of what he says logical and acceptable, but that still does not make him the equivalent of Jesus or any of the major Avatars.

I think you should promote your religion exclusively on the merits of Bahaullah’s teachings , and not by claiming that he is the Returned One (whoever that is) - because when the real One does return, your religion is in the danger of falling apart.

It is on the basis of His teachings and the incredible transformation it can evoke on the individual, the community and its institutions that the claim of Baha’u’llah becomes so much more believable.

As people who have never been in the presence of an Avatar, or as Baha’is call them, Manifestations of God, by what other means is there to believe the claims of any of Krishna, Jesus, Muhammad, and Baha’u’llah?

I would cherish a discussion on these subjects with you dear open mind

 

[openmind77]

You believe Billy Graham over Baha’u’llah?
I think that’s a relatively odd statement to make given you have already praised Baha’u’llah and yet you don’t think much of Billy Graham.

Does it make sense to you that someone would believe a person who he doesn’t think much of?

Is there anyone who you do admire MORE than Baha’u’llah that has claimed that Jesus has not returned yet?

I think you would agree that the purpose of religion is not become a “force” within the world, dear friend. What would you say is the purpose of any and all religions?

It is on the basis of His teachings and the incredible transformation it can evoke on the individual, the community and its institutions that the claim of Baha’u’llah becomes so much more believable.

As people who have never been in the presence of an Avatar, or as Baha’is call them, Manifestations of God, by what other means is there to believe the claims of any of Krishna, Jesus, Muhammad, and Baha’u’llah?

I would cherish a discussion on these subjects with you dear open mind

Like I said Billy Graham is just one of many (did I already say many?) - one of many who expect the Christ to Return soon.

There is nothing wrong in claiming that your religious leader is similar to the leaders of other religions. But you should really not claim that he is One expected by All, especially when he has not influenced that many of the world’s population. It just keeps getting old when you compare him to Jesus - who has literally influenced billions of people (including me who is not even a Christian).

The other point as I said before is that Bahais who keep repeating that Bahaullah is the Returned One are setting themselves up for a major disappointment and maybe even a disintegration of their group, when the Real One does return and that is likely to happen soon in the form of the Christ.

 

[daler]

There is not just one single source that says that the Return of the Christ will occur soon - it is multiple and many sources (even Billy Graham - who I don’t think that much of - said so just last month).

Even if the Bahai population doubles, it will still not be a major force in the world.

I don’t mean to minimize Bahaullah’s achievement. I find most of what he says logical and acceptable, but that still does not make him the equivalent of Jesus or any of the major Avatars.

I think you should promote your religion exclusively on the merits of Bahaullah’s teachings , and not by claiming that he is the Returned One (whoever that is) - because when the real One does return, your religion is in the danger of falling apart.

My dear openminded friend,

. I applaud your generous spirit and respect your Hindu beliefs, which are far more tolerant and embracing of other religions than most. It is no shallow or superficial claim which Baha’u’llah has put forth and is entirely subject to scrutiny. In deed, the deepest adherents coming from all Faiths have studied in great detail their own criteria, prophecies, and beliefs to find a rich and bountiful harvest of fruit from the Trees of Revelation from their own Holy Books before declaring their conclusions that He is in fact the Lord of the Age, as was Christ in His Cycle, and Krsna in His.

. Yet beyond the intellectual side of search lies the arena of the heart, wherein the candle of love is found sufficiently lit to draw souls from both ends of the human spectrum. That hearts respond to the Hidden Words of Baha’u’llah is a resonance by itself, while a detached study of the Kitab-i-Iqan reveals the unsealed mysteries of many Holy Books in stark contrast to their literal expressions, none of which makes sense.

. A Tree is not judged at the stage of seed, and this Faith is young, less than two hundred years out of the gate, and is currently spreading to well over a hundred thousand communities world wide, uniting every diverse element of human society, racial, economic, class and caste, religious and national, into a single undivided whole in fulfillment of the various promises of every tradition that in so many words expresses the same thing: “There shall be One Fold and One Shepherd”, “One sacred Hoop of all Nations”, a “Buddha of Universal Brotherhood”, etc, under the banner of the Promised One of all Religions, that being Baha’u’llah, Who fulfills, upon hearty investigation, the prerequisites of all reasonable conditions associated with every religion on the planet, according to studied followers of all these different Faith traditions.

. Referencing the Second coming of Christ, the Adventist Movement p(name removed by moderator)ointed this with irrefutable calculations arriving at 1844 AD, “coincidentally” the year 1260 AH, the intersection of which binds in agreement Jewish, Christian, and Muslim time and place prophecies. The difficulty arises only when literal interpretations are applied which can never be rationally held to ever take place, such as Jesus descending from outer space, but when understood symbolically and in historical factual evidence manifest conclusive proofs that He, in the Person of Baha’u’llah has already appeared, in 1844 AD (1260AH), in Elam (SW Persia), accompanied by hundreds of other prophecies from every direction, geographical and religious.

. Those who take up the challenge of impartial and independent investigation in depth to discover the truth of these assertions have abundant volumes of evidence which concur to ponder. Above this, however, the greatest proofs are the Verses of the Bab and Baha’u’llah, which no human tongue can match in eloquence or profound relevance to the spiritual needs of the age.

. I honor Lord Krsna, my friend, as One equal to Christ, and do not assert without understanding the importance of His role in the unfoldment of of the divine plan, as:

“This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future…”

for “All of the Prophets proclaim the same Faith”.

. Your conscientious contributions to dialogue, questions and points, add richly to the dialogue from your own unique perspective. Please continue to gift us with your presence in this lively thread.

. Namaste

. Daler

.
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