Baptists and Mary

[ahimsaman72]

dumspirospero:

What religion are you might I ask?

Well, I am a Southern Baptist Christian, so that would make me belong to Christianity!

 

[dumspirospero]

Yes you are a Christian. Let me ask you this, do you believe you can be saved by faith alone?

Well, I am a Southern Baptist Christian, so that would make me belong to Christianity!

 

[ahimsaman72]

hlgomez:

Ahimshaman,

Let’s focus of whta Christ Jesus said:

Further, if what you said that Christ has already “done that” then why does one still needs to be baptised? Why would Christ commands His disciples to baptize “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” and be “born of water and Spirit (baptism) to enter the Kingdom of God”? Truly Christ already has “done that”(and I mean forgiveness of sins) but we need to do our part.

Let me quote some of what the early Church believes.

Pio

Pio, forgive me. I mentioned my baptismal beliefs and by doing so have caused us to stray far away from the topic at hand. I’m afraid the mods. might close the thread, so I will try to keep on topic. By the way, you may find my beliefs stated very well at the Southern Baptist Convention website…(www.sbc.net)

 

[dumspirospero]

Are you saying that in the future it will be ok to pray for the intercession of Saints?

Also, I could have sworn that ealier you were asking people for proof and asked for them to cite a Church Father in their proof…did you change your mind?

ahimsaman72:

The Revelation passage is future tense.

And quoting early church fathers does not help.

 

[ahimsaman72]

dumspirospero:

Yes you are a Christian. Let me ask you this, do you believe you can be saved by faith alone?

Yes, I’m afraid I am a Christian, though would be considered a “seperated brother” in your Catholic teaching. Friend, we are straying from the topic of “Baptists and Mary”. For the record, I believe in Calvinism as far as salvation. I believe in faith alone and Scripture alone as Luther and other reformers have taught.

 

[ahimsaman72]

dumspirospero:

Are you saying that in the future it will be ok to pray for the intercession of Saints?

Also, I could have sworn that ealier you were asking people for proof and asked for them to cite a Church Father in their proof…did you change your mind?

Considering that the Book of Revelation after the first chapter is prophetical, I leave it in the hands of the future.

My understanding is that those persons whose prayers were offered up were the tribulation saints during the tribulation period.

I have never in the history of this forum asked for citations of early church fathers. Although, I am fond of Origen and Augustine.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Sarah Jane:

Jesus is not only human, He’s God too.

So He is not just God, but also Human… So He can pray for us, as also the Scripture teaches.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

Why do you people open many topics together?..

hlgomez:

History proves this. BTW, which Church are you talking about? And in what manner did you say that “you can’t pray to the dead”? Are you referring to praying for those who are in Purgatory?-- They are already sure of heaven but needs purification, but we pray for them so that God will hasten their stay there. Those who are in heaven?-- We ask for their intercession. We are indeed one Church–both of visible reality and invisible reality. That’s what you call “communion of saints.” We don’t just communicate with each other who are alive here on earth, but to everyone -here on earth, purgatory, and heaven. This is the Church as “one body” and we are all in union with Christ who is the Head of His Body the Church.

But praying for the dead is observed in the Traditions of the early Catholic Church, and so is the present day Catholic Church. She never changed that, or maybe you yourself did, but not the Catholic Church.

Is God the God of the living or of the dead? How you misunderstood Sacred Sriptures! God is a God of the living! Those saints are alive and are in heaven with the God of the living! But God is God of both the living and the dead for He is God of all, AMEN.

Pio

My friend, let’s begin from the origin of all this. Tell me: why is spiritism a sin? Why calling the spirit of a dead is sin?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Sarah_Jane]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

Why do you people open many topics together?..

My friend, let’s begin from the origin of all this. Tell me: why is spiritism a sin? Why calling the spirit of a dead is sin?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

The saints in heaven are not dead!

“But about the resurrection of the dead–have you not read what God said to you, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’ ? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.” (Mt 22:31-33)

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace!
Sarah Jane:

The saints are not dead!

Well, you can say this until you are dead, but this will not change the facts! They are dead for us but not dead for God!

As they are dead for us, so we can’t visit them and meet them and tell them: please pray for me! So we need to call them. Their bodies are DEAD! They are in the presence of the Lord in SPIRIT. So you need to call their spirits.

Tell me: why is spiritism sin?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Sarah_Jane]

YAQUBOS:

Peace!

Well, you can say this until you are dead, but this will not change the facts! They are dead for us but not dead for God!

As they are dead for us, so we can’t visit them and meet them and tell them: please pray for me! So we need to call them. Their bodies are DEAD! They are in the presence of the Lord in SPIRIT. So you need to call their spirits.

Tell me: why is spiritism sin?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

The saints are not dead for me! They are with God and they can pray for us. Like us, they are the Body of Christ!

For the spiritism :

“All forms of divination are to be rejected : recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to “unveil” the future. Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.” (CCC, 2116)

 

[MariaG]

Thank you Woody,
I am heartened when Christians can disagree with one another but understand why the other takes the position that they do. (It’s kind of like learning how to say “I’m sorry I hurt your feelings” is not admitting you did anything wrong, but still acknowledging the feeling of the other person were hurt by their perception of your actions.)

I assume you have researched and disagree with Scripture that Catholics believe points to a regenerative Baptism, so I will not repeat those. However, I will put you in my prayers. I will pray that God will continue to lead and guide your path. When you think of it, maybe you could do the same for me.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

p.s.

To help everyone get back on track, here is the original post.

Why do Baptists believe that mary was not sinless? I was talking witha Baptist friend of minew last night and we got talking about Mary. How do I explain to her that Mary WAS sinless, and where it says so in the Bible? Thanks for your help!

Hmm. Looks like the question was answered to me. Not agreeing with the answer is different than not answering.
Sounds like if you want to tackle the sinlessness of Mary, you first have to tackle the Catholic belief versus the Baptist belief of regenerative baptism as compared to public declaration.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[hlgomez]

My friend, let’s begin from the origin of all this. Tell me: why is spiritism a sin? Why calling the spirit of a dead is sin?

Yaqubos,

Praise the Lord God! This is an opportunity for us to explain to you your error and misunderstanding of Scriptures.

"God has forbidden contact with the dead in passages such as Deuteronomy 18:10–11 (yes, brother, you’re correct). So we Catholics are wrong–totally wrong! I thought we’re right?

But wait, what God has forbidden is necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits. “There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . God thus indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information; one is to look to God’s prophets instead. Thus one is not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his mother’s grave, “Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I’m having a real problem right now.” The difference between the two is the difference between night and day. One is an occult practice bent on getting secret information; the other is a humble request for a loved one to pray to God on one’s behalf.” (source: CatholicAnswers)

BTW, why did Moses and Elijah who were already dead appeared with Jesus in the Mt. during His transfiguration?

Pio

 

[tuopaolo]

ahimsaman72:

False analogy. Mom has equal authority with Dad. Mary does NOT have equal authority with Jesus. If Dad freely gives me everything I need, why bother asking Mom???

I don’t think it’s right to say that Mom has equal authority with Dad. St Paul says the husband is the head of his wife.

 

[faithfulservant]

Well, I am a Southern Baptist Christian, so that would make me belong to Christianity!

only partially… you are a Christian (i assume) but are no where near experiencing the fullness of the truth and the faith that our Lord left us, for our sake and our salvation…but never give up hope…i was a southern baptist when i was lost too and thanks to the Blessed Mother’s direct intervention, i not only was led to Her SOn, but also to His Church

 

[Srobert]

Topic: Baptists and Mary ;
As a new member I joined to be able to learn and share what we all have in common , our love and passion for Jesus Christ. But after following all the post of the topic on Mary I have to share my feelings . I feel very sad with the way I have seen different people showing to the others how wrong they are. What is really disappointing is to realize the knowledge most of you have on the church history ,dogma, faith ,scriptures… and the way this knowledge is used. I understand that the purpose of the site is to discuss with others about the practices and dogmas of this rich church, that has been preserved for 2000 years but it looks more like a competition of who knows what ,to prove to the other wrong or right???.
Since 1972 I joined the Catholic faith through marriage . I myself have been in that search for who had the “real” truth ,which church was the aunthetic church. It has been good and rewarding because I have learned and experienced many churches . In this search I realize that I love being in the presence of good christian people, truly loving and respecting our differences and most important our common things. I don’t want to convince anyone, including two of my young adult children that are part of a non denominational church, of why I am a joyful, "satisfied "Catholic that has experienced baptism in the spirit and a renewal of my faith. That I have been blessed by being raised as Episcopalian brought up in a Methodist school(11 years) ,married to a traditional Catholic in a small island ,Puerto Rico.
In 26 years being in USA , 32 years of marriage, four young adult children I have found my peace and comfort in being Catholic.
I came to have an intimate relationship with Christ through this search, studies in theology ,many readings from our church fathers and saints . The Catholic church has been the church that helped me grow in this relationship. I have a brother and his family Baptist, and was privileged to witness to them my love for Christ which brought a niece to a relationship with the Lord (and still decided to stayed in her Baptist church). We have been able to respect our differences and this has allow growth for all of us.
When I posted my first message ( what defines you as 100% Catholic, was to know how other people felt being Catholics(their struggles, what makes them joyful and proud ).
I strive to be Like Jesus and surrender " my control " to him, I will respect others beliefs and religions with the same desire for mine.
If by being a “real” servant of God within the Catholic faith I can bring the message of salvation to others through my actions and my life AMEN and praise the Lord!!!
srobert

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

hlgomez:

Yaqubos,

Praise the Lord God! This is an opportunity for us to explain to you your error and misunderstanding of Scriptures.

Thank you Lord, for hlgomez wants to think about these things. Give him, Lord, to think seriously. Amen.

"God has forbidden contact with the dead in passages such as Deuteronomy 18:10–11 (yes, brother, you’re correct). So we Catholics are wrong–totally wrong! I thought we’re right?

But wait, what God has forbidden is necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits. “There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . God thus indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information; one is to look to God’s prophets instead. Thus one is not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his mother’s grave, “Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I’m having a real problem right now.” The difference between the two is the difference between night and day. One is an occult practice bent on getting secret information; the other is a humble request for a loved one to pray to God on one’s behalf.” (source: CatholicAnswers)

You say calling the dead for secret information was wrong. Well, is calling them for good reasons good?

Friend, you didn’t explain why spiritism is sin, but you just compared your talking with your dead saint to that practice.

But don’t you know that speaking to a dead HUMAN in prayer is giving a divine glory to him? Don’t you know that this means giving him a divine Attribute?

Well, Jesus said:

“No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you.” ( John 15:15 )

Let’s understand what our Master is doing…

Let’s understand the real problem of spiritism.

Are the dead saints everywhere in the same time?
Do you know that this is one of God’s Attributes: to be everywhere in the same time?

If a dead saint is not everywhere in the same time, can you please tell me how someone in Asia can talk to him in the same time when others are talking to him in America? Can that be without calling his spirit to Asia?

hlgomez:

BTW, why did Moses and Elijah who were already dead appeared with Jesus in the Mt. during His transfiguration?

As we all know, the dead are not dead FOR GOD, but are dead FOR US. The saints who are dead are in the presence of the Lord, and ONLY the Lord has the right to use them for His glory.
Thus, Elijah and Moses appeared to give glory to Jesus Christ.
But this doesn’t have anything to do with our topic, because in this example you gave, no human talked to those saints! The apostles talked to Jesus, and the saints talked to Jesus. ALL ARE TALKING TO JESUS!!! The saints didn’t talk to the apostles, nor did the apostles talk to the DEAD saints.

Read this very well:

"And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.
Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here” ( Matthew 17:3-4 )

Jesus is God. So let’s talk to Him in prayer.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[garylee]

it seems to me that most protestants who convert to Catholicism want to embrace the church’s teachings and gradually accept its teachings on Mary more and more until they become as devoted to the Virgin as any other catholic. I know I was first convinced by the truth that the rest of christianity is splintered and continues to be that way and the only remedy I could see is the Catholic Church which is the only one that retains its unity. I just believed that if God was leading me to the Catholic church then the whole Mary thing would take care of itself which it did.

 

[ahimsaman72]

faithfulservant:

only partially… you are a Christian (i assume) but are no where near experiencing the fullness of the truth and the faith that our Lord left us, for our sake and our salvation…but never give up hope…i was a southern baptist when i was lost too and thanks to the Blessed Mother’s direct intervention, i not only was led to Her SOn, but also to His Church

I asserted that I was a Christian. You said “only partially”. Then you said, “You are a Christian”. Either I am a Christian and a disciple of Jesus Christ or I’m a pagan, Buddhist, Hindu or Muslim. Which is it?

 

[ahimsaman72]

tuopaolo:

I don’t think it’s right to say that Mom has equal authority with Dad. St Paul says the husband is the head of his wife.

They both still have equal authority over the children.