Baptists and Mary

[Sarah_Jane]

ahimsaman72:

Baptists teach adult baptism for those who have already accepted Christ as savior. That doesn’t mean that children aren’t born sinful. God takes care of them, somehow, some way. There are verses that imply they are taken to be with Him. I can dig those out if you want. There is a verse which Jesus states that “their angels” are watching over them. He also stated that everyone must come to God like a little child. To us, it implies they are humble and have not “rebelled” against God as yet.

Original sin is what the name implies. It was inherited by us all through Adam and Eve’s transgression. Romans 5:12 shows this.

Accepting Christ involves repenting, confessing and putting faith in Christ and constitutes the sin-removing act for all time. Baptism as you pointed out, is for public affirmation only.

"Baptism is a grace from God, not something we do for God. And grace does not depend on our intellectual achievements any more than it depends on any other human achievement. This is one of the many ironies of opposition to the ancient Christian practice of infant baptism. For to refuse baptism to a baby on the grounds that “It isn’t able to understand what is happening” is to presume that God only gives grace to those who are smart or old enough to figure out how to get it. This is, paradoxically, an implicit assumption of salvation by intellectual works specifically condemned by Scripture and Catholic teaching.

Besides, baptism means nothing less than the miracle of the Blessed Trinity coming to take up residence in a human person and make that person fit to dwell in union with the Eternal, Unimaginable, All-Powerful, Immortal and Invisible God of Heaven and Earth. Do you understand the magnitude of such a cataclysm? Of course not. So why should we quibble that babies understand it slightly less than we do? It’s never too early to bear the grace of God to a human soul." (Mark Shea)

 

[hlgomez]

Pio, you missed it. Why aren’t there prayers to Mother Theresa (who is by definition given by another poster) a “queen of heaven” like Mary?

That’s why you have been going around in circles because you just believe what other people say. For 100% accuracy of all catholic teachings refer to the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

BTW, it’s only you who said “why aren’t there prayers to Mother Theresa?” Were you able to rad everyone’s mind?

Blessed Theresa of Calcutta, please pray for us!

Pio

 

[MariaG]

posted by ahimsaman72

Accepting Christ involves repenting, confessing and putting faith in Christ and constitutes the sin-removing act for all time. Baptism as you pointed out, is for public affirmation only.

This is extremely helpful. I think it also shows why Baptists would find the it difficult to understand why Catholics teach Mary was conceived without original sin. It also shows why the teaching on Purgatory would be completely unneccessary for Baptists thinking.

ahimsaman72, I hope that you too can see why in Catholic teaching both would be 100% needed. Now I did not say agree, I said understand. We believe Baptism actually cleanses the soul of original sin and any personal sin. We believe an actual miracle takes place during baptism not just a public affirmation.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[hlgomez]

The doctrine of original sin refutes everything you just said. Do you believe in original sin (inherited sin) that came down to us through Adam? I knew Muslims didn’t believe in original sin, but I was unaware the Catholic church taught it.

Ahishaman,

Truly you’re confused and I pray to God with the intercession of all the saints that your mind will be cleared by all you confusion regarding Catholic doctrines.

What we are saying here is this:

The original sin is washed away right after baptism. We inherit it, but didn’t do it. Mama Mary was preserve from original sin which all human beings inherit from Adam and Eve. That’s why she is so pure a vessel for the incarnation of the Word of God. The Word became flesh of the flesh of Mary, and bones of the bones of Mary. Pure and undefiled flesh and blood which runs thru the veins of the Immaculate Virgin runs thru the veins of the Word of God made Flesh. We don’t have that purity of the flesh and blood because of original sin. But it is restored 100% thru baptism. That’s why it is called by the Early Church Fathers as “regeneration (or baptism)”. It cleanses us, both of original sin and the sins (not original sin) that we commit in this life prior to baptism. This is true to people who are baptised in later age. But we are not perfect enough not to commit sin again while we are still on this earth. We are still hounded day and night with temptations to sin and still commit sin (this is no longer called original sin).

However, the other posters in this board is trying to point out that other people cannot sin (not original sin) because of certain conditions existing in their bodies. But the Blessed Virgin Mama Mary was kept from commiting sin (plus her preservation from original sin) because of the overflowing of grace in her. Hope this clarifies your confusion.

All Angels and Saints in heaven, please pray for us!

Pio

 

[ahimsaman72]

MariaG:

This is extremely helpful. I think it also shows why Baptists would find the it difficult to understand why Catholics teach Mary was conceived without original sin. It also shows why the teaching on Purgatory would be completely unneccessary for Baptists thinking.

ahimsaman72, I hope that you too can see why in Catholic teaching both would be 100% needed. Now I did not say agree, I said understand. We believe Baptism actually cleanses the soul of original sin and any personal sin. We believe an actual miracle takes place during baptism not just a public affirmation.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

I’m glad it cleared up some things for you. Yes, it is very difficult for us to see how she could be conceived without sin. We believe only Christ was born this way (without sin). And yes, purgatory is completely unnecessary in the context of our theology.

We believe regeneration and sanctification has already been achieved. It’s simply a matter of putting on our new glorified bodies (referred to as glorification) and completing what God has already started. There are three phases of salvation in typical Baptist theology. This would be regeneration (which God begins), sanctification (which God does) and glorification (which God finishes).

Regeneration happens at one moment in time when one repents, confesses and believes. Sanctification begins after that moment and continues throughout the Christian life. Glorification happens at one moment in time when our mortal bodies are changed into glorified bodies at the second coming of Christ. Therefore, I can say that June 16, 1986, I was saved by God’s grace and will continue thus and will one appointed day, die and meet Christ - wholly ready to live and abide with him without need for anything.

I can see why Catholic theology is such that both are needed, while of course disagreeing with it.

Your brother in Christ,
Woody

 

[dumspirospero]

Mary was conceived and born without original sin, yet she retained her free will. That is why she is sometimes referred to as the 2nd Eve. However, Mary did not give into sin as Eve did.

ahimsaman72:

But does the Bible say she has not sinned? We could go 'round and 'round the ferris wheel with this.

This book, Song of Songs is a giant metaphor for speaking of Christ and his bride, the church.

The Father’s perfect masterpiece? Are you serious? This is the problem people have with the Marian dogmas. It SEEM you are equating the Father’s perfect masterpiece (Jesus, His Son) with his mother who was human as far as I can tell. She was not divine, correct? Then how can she be human and not born with sin nature?

 

[ahimsaman72]

hlgomez:

Ahishaman,

Truly you’re confused and I pray to God with the intercession of all the saints that your mind will be cleared by all you confusion regarding Catholic doctrines.

What we are saying here is this:

The original sin is washed away right after baptism. We inherit it, but didn’t do it. Mama Mary was preserve from original sin which all human beings inherit from Adam and Eve. That’s why she is so pure a vessel for the incarnation of the Word of God. The Word became flesh of the flesh of Mary, and bones of the bones of Mary. Pure and undefiled flesh and blood which runs thru the veins of the Immaculate Virgin runs thru the veins of the Word of God made Flesh. We don’t have that purity of the flesh and blood because of original sin. But it is restored 100% thru baptism. That’s why it is called by the Early Church Fathers as “regeneration (or baptism)”. It cleanses us, both of original sin and the sins (not original sin) that we commit in this life prior to baptism. This is true to people who are baptised in later age. But we are not perfect enough not to commit sin. We are still hounded day and night with temptations to sin.

However, the other posters in this board is trying to point out that other people cannot sin (not original sin) because of certain conditions existing in their bodies. But the Blessed Virgin Mama Mary was kept from commiting sin (plus her preservation from original sin) because of the overflowing of grace in her. Hope this clarifies your confusion.

All Angels and Saints in heaven, please pray for us!

Pio

Dear Pio,

We Baptists believe baptism does not effect any graces on the believer. It does not wash away any sin. Christ’s death on the cross has already done that. It is simply a public affirmation of the grace that has already been bestowed on the individual who repents, confesses and believes the gospel as stated in Rom. 10:9,10.

I agree that we didn’t “do” any original sin, but that it was inherited. I am quite confused as to the Marian dogmas. I am guilty of that. I cannot see the sense in it. Guilty as charged.

I understand your position on baptism, while of course disagreeing with it.

 

[hlgomez]

Do you really think we need someone “pulling for us” when we need something? Do you really think we need to go to the VP to get our foot in the door and get us some “pull”. We’re dealing with the Savior of the universe here, not Donald Trump.

If this is your point, then you don’t need to ask others to pray for you. It’s nonsense according to you.

Pio

 

[ahimsaman72]

dumspirospero:

Mary was conceived and born without original sin, yet she retained her free will. That is why she is sometimes referred to as the 2nd Eve. However, Mary did not give into sin as Eve did.

Of course this is Catholic teaching. I understand the teaching. I just absolutely disagree with it. I cannot find this teaching anywhere outside the Catholic church and its proclaimed dogmas. You can’t quote any other sources because there are none. I don’t accept the teaching nor the “authority” behind the teaching.

 

[dumspirospero]

Exactly. Mary is the perfect example of how we should live our lives and how we should approach Christ in our lives and in our prayers.

hlgomez:

Ron,

Authentic Marian devotion always always leads to Christ.

If you love your mom dearly and we are best friends, will you envy if I say I love your mom to the point that I call her as my “mother” too?

Pio

 

[ahimsaman72]

hlgomez:

If this is your point, then you don’t need to ask others to pray for you. It’s nonsense according to you.

Pio

I don’t ask others generally to pray for me.

Asking humans that are alive on the earth is permissable and spoken of throughout Scripture and encouraged. Nowhere in Scripture do you find people praying to saints in heaven, however.

 

[ahimsaman72]

dumspirospero:

Exactly. Mary is the perfect example of how we should live our lives and how we should approach Christ in our lives and in our prayers.

Now, here’s the statement of the day. IF catholic teaching about Mary were as you state here, then I would agree. HOWEVER, we both know there’s a big difference in teaching that she is “Queen of Heaven” and being a good example of Christian living. Come now, friend.

 

[dumspirospero]

Baptism does wash away Original Sin and once baptized, if it was a Trinitarian Baptism, no matter if it took place in a Baptist Church, you are a member of the one true Church…the CAtholic Church.

Christ’s death on the cross was to wash away OUR sins. I am a convert from Baptist. The Baptist Religion didn’t do anything for me. There wasn’t enough…I needed more, so I converted to the one True Church. Yes, it is harder to be a Catholic. THere are more traditions and beliefs you acquire…and it is hard at times to live a good Orthodox Catholic lifestyle…but oh the rewards are so great. Being a part of the Church that Christ started is one reward that only Catholics can share.

ahimsaman72:

Dear Pio,

We Baptists believe baptism does not effect any graces on the believer. It does not wash away any sin. Christ’s death on the cross has already done that. It is simply a public affirmation of the grace that has already been bestowed on the individual who repents, confesses and believes the gospel as stated in Rom. 10:9,10.

I agree that we didn’t “do” any original sin, but that it was inherited. I am quite confused as to the Marian dogmas. I am guilty of that. I cannot see the sense in it. Guilty as charged.

I understand your position on baptism, while of course disagreeing with it.

 

[dumspirospero]

When you pray to Saints, you don’t pray to them as if they are God…you are praying for their intercession on your behalf. Take St. Jude for instance, the Patron Saint of lost causes and desperate situations…you would pray for his intercession on behalf of your parent if they were in the hospital with terminal cancer. Is that so hard for you to understand our beliefs? These Saints were Canonized due to the miracles attributed to them.

ahimsaman72:

I don’t ask others generally to pray for me.

Asking humans that are alive on the earth is permissable and spoken of throughout Scripture and encouraged. Nowhere in Scripture do you find people praying to saints in heaven, however.

 

[dumspirospero]

One can not tell you the truth if you are unable to recognize it…just like Pilate asked Claudia “What is Veritas (Truth)”, and she replied to him, if you can not see it, then I will not be able to tell you.

ahimsaman72:

Of course this is Catholic teaching. I understand the teaching. I just absolutely disagree with it. I cannot find this teaching anywhere outside the Catholic church and its proclaimed dogmas. You can’t quote any other sources because there are none. I don’t accept the teaching nor the “authority” behind the teaching.

 

[hlgomez]

We Baptists believe baptism does not effect any graces on the believer. It does not wash away any sin. Christ’s death on the cross has already done that. It is simply a public affirmation of the grace that has already been bestowed on the individual who repents, confesses and believes the gospel as stated in Rom. 10:9,10.

Ahimshaman,

Let’s focus of whta Christ Jesus said:

John 3:3,5 - Jesus says, “Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” When Jesus said “water and the Spirit,” He was referring to baptism.

Acts 10:47 - Peter says “can anyone forbid water for baptizing these people…?” The Bible always links water and baptism.

Mark 16:16 - Jesus said “He who believes AND is baptized will be saved.” Believing is not enough.

Gal. 3:27 - whoever is baptized in Christ puts on Christ. Putting on Christ is not just symbolic. Christ actually dwells within our soul.

Titus 3:5 - He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit. This is a powerful text which proves that baptism regenerates our souls and is thus salvific. Regeneration is never symbolic.

Further, if what you said that Christ has already “done that” then why does one still needs to be baptised? Why would Christ commands His disciples to baptize “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” and be “born of water and Spirit (baptism) to enter the Kingdom of God”? Truly Christ already has “done that”(and I mean forgiveness of sins) but we need to do our part.

Let me quote some of what the early Church believes.

Justin Martyr: Then they are led by us to a place where there is water, and they are reborn in the same kind of rebirth in which we ourselves were reborn: ‘In the name of God, the Lord and Father of all, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit,’ they receive the washing of water. For Christ said, ‘Unless you be reborn, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven’" (*First Apology *61:14–17 [A.D. 151]).

Ambrose of Milan: “The Lord was baptized, not to be cleansed himself but to cleanse the waters, so that those waters, cleansed by the flesh of Christ which knew no sin, might have the power of baptism. Whoever comes, therefore, to the washing of Christ lays aside his sins” (*Commentary on Luke *2:83 [A.D. 389]).

AMEN and AMEN!

Pio

 

[hlgomez]

I don’t ask others generally to pray for me.

But this is simply not true to so many others among Protestants.

Asking humans that are alive on the earth is permissable and spoken of throughout Scripture and encouraged. Nowhere in Scripture do you find people praying to saints in heaven, however.

What else can I say? Hurray! Scriptures doesn’t explecitly narrates so many Saints that “entered” heaven. But wait: read what happened in the book of Revelations. John sees that “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8).
“[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3–4).

Moreover, after the 1st century, and evenduring the 1st century, the Holy Catholic Church, thru the writings of the Early Fathers (thanks to God for them) have preserved in their writings what the Church believes.

Here are some:
Hermas: “But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’” (*The Shepherd *3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).

Clement of Alexandria: “In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]” (*Miscellanies *7:12 [A.D. 208]).

Origen: “But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep” (*Prayer *11 [A.D. 233]).

St. Cyril:"Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition . . . " (*Catechetical Lectures *23:9 [A.D. 350]).

Pio

 

[ahimsaman72]

dumspirospero:

When you pray to Saints, you don’t pray to them as if they are God…you are praying for their intercession on your behalf. Take St. Jude for instance, the Patron Saint of lost causes and desperate situations…you would pray for his intercession on behalf of your parent if they were in the hospital with terminal cancer. Is that so hard for you to understand our beliefs? These Saints were Canonized due to the miracles attributed to them.

I understand the beliefs I just don’t agree with them. “Understand” is not the correct term to use.

 

[dumspirospero]

What religion are you might I ask?

ahimsaman72:

I understand the beliefs I just don’t agree with them. “Understand” is not the correct term to use.

 

[ahimsaman72]

hlgomez:

But this is simply not true to so many others among Protestants.

What else can I say? Hurray! Scriptures doesn’t explecitly narrates so many Saints that “entered” heaven. But wait: read what happened in the book of Revelations. John sees that “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8).
“[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3–4).

Pio

The Revelation passage is future tense.

And quoting early church fathers does not help.