Beards and Gay Marriage

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You would be right to say that “PC” as a term is of relatively recent invention. However, as I’ve tried to show, the practice of leftist political correctness long predates the invention of the term, just as the existence and practice of Christianity somewhat predates the invented term “Catholic” to signify the universal Church of Christ.

Almost everywhere you look today, the term “politically correct” is associated with the latest loony fad coming from the left.
 
You would be right to say that “PC” as a term is of relatively recent invention. However, as I’ve tried to show, the practice of leftist political correctness long predates the invention of the term, just as the existence and practice of Christianity somewhat predates the invented term “Catholic” to signify the universal Church of Christ.

Almost everywhere you look today, the term “politically correct” is associated with the latest loony fad coming from the left.
I pretty much agree with you but to be fair I believe that the right tried to demonize PC so the left pushed it into their face. For me politically correct means neither the right nor the left. Both are equally intrinsically evil.
 
I don’t think the left or the right are intrinsically evil unless they associate with intrinsically evil causes. Lunacy can prevail on either side. For the most part it is prevailing on the left right now more so than on the right.

But the worm turns. 🤷
 
And similarly, gay marriage always is immoral because it always causes harm. Always. Each and every time.
It can’t be difficult to show harm if every gay marriage causes it. So can you give some examples. You wouldn’t last time I asked, maybe this time…

And please, no ‘in my opinion…’ or ‘isn’t it obvious that…’ or ‘anyone can see…’ etc. Let’s have some concrete examples.
Here is a source which proposes that incest is actually genetically attractive to us:
That rather limited amount of detail is just confirming my previous post. Particularly in regard to the Westermark effec. I recommend that you read the article to which I posted.

GSA is rare between people raised together in early childhood due to a reverse sexual imprinting known as the Westermarck effect, which desensitizes them to later close sexual attraction. It is hypothesized that this effect evolved to prevent inbreeding.

So notwithstanding that you’d be attracted to someone with similar traits (assuming you were brought up separately), there is an automatic fail safe to minimise sexual attraction between those who have been brought up as siblings. Again, it’s automatic. There is no logic behind it, no internal moral debate. It’s genetic.
It is precisely this pandering to public opinion that allows them to write into the law that the Church of England can break the law at the same time as ordering the rest of British society to comply with it.
I don’t think you read the bill correctly. The C of E is not being allowed to break the law. Gay marriages will be defined as a secular arrangement and the C of E are entirely free to carry on performing the religious ceremonies and opt out (should they wish) in performing gay marriages. A lot of them have said they’ll have no problem in performing them.

And incestual marriages remain illegal. If there is a movement to have those type of marriages allowed, then I’m sure we’ll hear about it and we can discuss it then. Otherwise, you are complaining about something that effectively no-one wants (although PR found one single example from a few years back) and is illegal as it stands in any case.

Trying to fine tune a philosophical argument to show that family members will be lining the streets demanding equal marital rights is a non-sequitur. How about you concentrate less on the slippery slope and more on actual problems that you feel will result from gay marriages.

Show me what harm has been done.
 
It can’t be difficult to show harm if every gay marriage causes it. So can you give some examples. You wouldn’t last time I asked, maybe this time…

And please, no ‘in my opinion…’ or ‘isn’t it obvious that…’ or ‘anyone can see…’ etc. Let’s have some concrete examples.
I think that has been previously discussed and agreed it is a faith based belief.
 
I don’t think the left or the right are intrinsically evil unless they associate with intrinsically evil causes. Lunacy can prevail on either side. For the most part it is prevailing on the left right now more so than on the right.

But the worm turns. 🤷
They are intrinsically evil because the policies that they peruse, policies which are not the same issues that drive their respective bases into frenzies of hate for the opposite side. The truly evil policies are the ones that benefit the elite money classes, financial corporations, multinational corporations and corrupt politicians at the expense of everyone else. While we may argue over political correctness they are laughing all the way to the bank.
 
It can’t be difficult to show harm if every gay marriage causes it. So can you give some examples. You wouldn’t last time I asked, maybe this time…
Just like you can’t show a single concrete example of how it harms your relationship if you cheat and your wife never finds out.

Yet you still believe it’s wrong.
 
I think that has been previously discussed and agreed it is a faith based belief.
Since when do two individuals “agreeing” to a perspective make it “previously discussed and agreed?”
They are intrinsically evil because the policies that they peruse, policies which are not the same issues that drive their respective bases into frenzies of hate for the opposite side. The truly evil policies are the ones that benefit the elite money classes, financial corporations, multinational corporations and corrupt politicians at the expense of everyone else. While we may argue over political correctness they are laughing all the way to the bank.
This is as much a “faith based belief” as any.
 
Just like you can’t show a single concrete example of how it harms your relationship if you cheat and your wife never finds out.

Yet you still believe it’s wrong.
The two are not comparable. The spouse does not ever need to find out but the adulterer knows. The damage is to the relationship. The cheating spouse has abused the marital relationship, the adultery can be forgiven by God but the relationship has been damaged forever. If you need CC teaching to verify this you neither understand human nature nor covenant marriage.
 
Trying to fine tune a philosophical argument to show that family members will be lining the streets demanding equal marital rights is a non-sequitur. How about you concentrate less on the slippery slope and more on actual problems that you feel will result from gay marriages.

Show me what harm has been done.
The problem with assuming a “sentience” perspective on harm is that it restricts your definition of harm to that which you palpably feel to be harm.

In the case of a spouse being cheated on, you have a difficult time explaining how harm could have occurred if the cheated on spouse is not aware of the harm.

A frog in a pot slowly being heated is never aware that its “goose is being cooked” because its sensory system is slowly being compromised.

Likewise when morality is slowly being compromised and replaced by a requirement to “feel” or be aware of harm in some sensory way, a moral being could have its “goose cooked” in the very fact that its moral sensibilities are being compromised and replaced by a kind of gross moral hedonism.

The frog in the pot does not realize its long term interests are being rapidly lost precisely because its sensory system is being damaged in a manner that makes it inefficacious for warning the frog. Reliance on its sensory system alone as an indicator of harm is what makes the frog vulnerable to a disabling of that system.

Human beings have, beyond sentience, reason as a method of determining real harm. We don’t need to rely solely on sensory awareness. We can judge harm to our interests even where that harm is not palpable in some sensory way.

The spouse being cheated on is being harmed because her/his interests - in a relationship that s/he has totally committed him/herself to on the assumption that the other person has as well - have been compromised.

That is harm that doesn’t even register on your metric because your calibration requires some form of palpable harm to be felt or sensed. This is an indicator, by the way, that your metric for determining harm is grossly inadequate.

I would argue that your “harm must be sensed” requirement, by itself, is an indicator that your moral senses are compromised. You only know or aware of harm when it, literally speaking, comes up and bites you on the behind. Absent a chunk being physically taken out of your backside, you have no explanation for or awareness of a great deal of what constitutes real harm.

The fact that “gay” individuals rely totally on sensory based hedonism to define what makes them who they are belies the fact that they have done harm to their own interests by replacing real long-term, though intangible, moral interests with fulfillment of pleasure seeking.

Interests such as having a happy marriage, a wonderful family with responsible, well-adjusted children, etc. are compromised by an insistence that their interests must be based upon uncompromised satisfaction of pleasure/emotion, conveniently forgetting that happy marriages and families are made by hard work, sacrifice and eschewing self-interest for the sake of others.

A moral position that says, “My pleasure satisfaction will be my prime focus and any moral principles will be subordinated to that end,” will hit a conflict wall very quickly.

Again, the real harm is one of compromise to moral formation / fine tuning that will end up leaving the hedonistic individual with a moral disability. Like the frog in the pot, their “harm meter” will be slowly disabled precisely because they cannot transcend their own emotional/sensory state to recognize real harm when it faces them. Their sole indicator for harm can easily be “stewed” such that harm recognition (their own discomfort) will be deceptively unable to warn of real danger.

A culture where mothers casually kill their own babies by the millions, sex and children sought as commodities, and pleasure fulfillment is the principal motivation for action is a culture that is on the verge of being “cooked” - just very oblivious to that fact.

Gay marriage will likely not do much more harm to our culture, the harm has already been done - to marriage, to moral sensibilities and to individual consciences. Gay marriage is simply the buzzer alerting all that the frog is cooked and ready to be devoured.
 
Since when do two individuals “agreeing” to a perspective make it “previously discussed and agreed?”
Peter, until the poster refutes it and addresses the question I and Bradski asked, I am going to assume the poster agrees. If I am wrong she can correct me. If you wish to discuss it further that is your option.
This is as much a “faith based belief” as any.
I am delighted we agree that individuals can have faith based beliefs.
 
Peter, until the poster refutes it and addresses the question I and Bradski asked, I am going to assume the poster agrees. If I am wrong she can correct me. If you wish to discuss it further that is your option.
No, actually. You can only assume another person agrees when they actually state their agreement, otherwise their position remains unknown to you. Presumption is not a becoming trait.
 

Trying to fine tune a philosophical argument to show that family members will be lining the streets demanding equal marital rights is a non-sequitur. How about you concentrate less on the slippery slope and more on actual problems that you feel will result from gay marriages.

Show me what harm has been done.
Let me outline the argument – which was made early on, but worth repeating:

Part I:
  • The state has an interest in stability and in protecting norms that cultivate a prosperous society.
  • When a man and woman decide to share their lives together, children might result.
  • Children do well when they are raised by a mother and a father in a stable environment.
  • From the state’s perspective, a stable family unit (Mother/Father/Children) is a norm worth protecting – and promoting – because stable families foster growth and prosperity.
Part II:
  • When marriage becomes redefined as an emotional connection between two people, the norm of Mother/Father/Children becomes devalued.
  • And when that norm becomes devalued, its place as The Cornerstone of Society is weakened.
  • When the family unit becomes devalued and weakened, then permanence and exclusivity become arbitrary; roles like Motherhood and Fatherhood become optional; and the only possible result is instability.
Skeptical? Take a look at the impact of no-fault divorce.
 
No, actually. You can only assume another person agrees when they actually state their agreement, otherwise their position remains unknown to you. Presumption is not a becoming trait.
I don’t mean to be impolite so I will just think to myself that she is in agreement and await her definitive answers to the questions posed by myself and Bradski

I hope you are just as keen to speak up when you see other impoliteness on the CAF.
 
Gay marriage will likely not do much more harm to our culture, the harm has already been done - to marriage, to moral sensibilities and to individual consciences. Gay marriage is simply the buzzer alerting all that the frog is cooked and ready to be devoured.
Interesting post and thinking, I also think the same applies to adultery which I say only to reconcile that the same applies in the formation of conscience. If this is true which I believe so, then how would we conclude this wouldn’t continue to cause harm in some similar degree. The solution could only be in understanding and knowledge or dismissal of this which perpetuates the dilemma and possibly creates further deviation from natural orientation. Especially if genetics are involved which day by day I am coming to believe regardless of existing data. For example adultery and genetics…

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.webmd.com%2Fsex-relationships%2Fnews%2F20101201%2Fis-infidelity-genetic&ei=NZq-U7iID6H88AHOu4DQAw&usg=AFQjCNEqHIZ7_7fnYmTuXvryRuNZ1uOUJA
 

Gay marriage will likely not do much more harm to our culture…
This might be the only time I’ve disagreed with something you’ve posted…

I think we’re in the early stages of the harm caused by marriage revisionists.

The harm to come – the slippery slope that Bradski and others want to avoid discussing – is that marriage (valued by the state as merely a liberty interest) cannot be denied to others who seek to achieve happiness with multiple partners, siblings, children, parents, etc., etc.
 
Let me outline the argument – which was made early on, but worth repeating:

Part II:
  • When marriage becomes redefined as an emotional connection between two people, the norm of Mother/Father/Children becomes devalued.
  • And when that norm becomes devalued, its place as The Cornerstone of Society is weakened.
  • When the family unit becomes devalued and weakened, then permanence and exclusivity become arbitrary; roles like Motherhood and Fatherhood become optional; and the only possible result is instability.
Skeptical? Take a look at the impact of no-fault divorce.
To be consistent you have to also include men and women who marry with no intention of having children and all sterile opposite sex marriages for any reason.

The impact of no-fault divorce may be tragic but how does that concern same sex individuals who want a strong monogamous marriage? Divorce destroys the bonds of marriage whereas same sex couples want to bond in a life long covenant marriage. In effect divorce is anti-marriage and SSM is pro marriage.

I don’t know if you realize it or not but you are being discriminatory for reasons that do not concern same sex couples or society on the assumption that SSM will further weaken and devalue marriage when in reality the intention of SSM is to strengthen marriage.
 
To be consistent you have to also include men and women who marry with no intention of having children and all sterile opposite sex marriages for any reason.
Imho this is correct, there is no moral need, its a want with a desire to complete what is disordered morally. The desire to resolve loneliness and ascend in love doesn’t require marriage and consummation. What is the greatest act of love, consummation?
I don’t know if you realize it or not but you are being discriminatory for reasons that do not concern same sex couples or society on the assumption that SSM will further weaken and devalue marriage when in reality the intention of SSM is to strengthen marriage.
Not in my mind, both above have the same outcome which not only weakens and devalues marriage but ultimately life itself. Personally in my mind it has nothing to do with the tendency of male-male, female-female or male-female. All are a consequence and a responsibility to each. My friend few would argue the greatest act of love is sacrifice.
 
Imho this is correct, there is no moral need, its a want with a desire to complete what is disordered morally. The desire to resolve loneliness and ascend in love doesn’t require marriage and consummation. What is the greatest act of love, consummation?

Not in my mind, both above have the same outcome which not only weakens and devalues marriage but ultimately life itself. Personally in my mind it has nothing to do with the tendency of male-male, female-female or male-female. All are a consequence and a responsibility to each. My friend few would argue the greatest act of love is sacrifice.
Thank you for your thoughtful response. There is nothing at all in your response that I disagree with or argue with which does not mean that we share the same perspectives and beliefs.

For example “disordered morally” is faith based belief. From your response as well as other comments you have made I know you believe it to be true with every fiber in your body and I admire that.
 
Thank you for your thoughtful response. There is nothing at all in your response that I disagree with or argue with which does not mean that we share the same perspectives and beliefs.

For example “disordered morally” is faith based belief. From your response as well as other comments you have made I know you believe it to be true with every fiber in your body and I admire that.
Thank you, your very kind. Here’s a link which is somewhat in line with the thinking.

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.chastitysf.com%2Fq_secondmrg.htm&ei=aq–U5mgJ6fh8gHnhIGQDQ&usg=AFQjCNHrJQ8Sx_RQSXhVPheYmoLvWlFEhw

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCIQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FThe_Imitation_of_Christ&ei=DMK-U5q2MceH8gGnhYHoBQ&usg=AFQjCNHeyDsMvDDKsubRO0gyDUQK25Ez-w
 
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