Behavior at abortion clinic

[kalt]

No, they don’t think about that child at all. It’s all about them. And I am not so sure. Many women call a fetus, a parasite, so, yeah, some do think that. And, I know that for sure.

I may be wasting my time here, but you don’t understand the posistion of the women who are getting the abortion.

The call it a parasite, because they believe that it is a paraisitc growth, not a baby.

I know that you consider it a baby,. but these women don’t.

I know that you’re not stupid, and that you can understand what they think, even if you don’t agree with them.

The goal is to get these women to understand that it is a baby.

Ignoring the reality of the social climate, and insisting that the women know that it’s a baby when they don’t, is nonsensical.

 

[Danny_OC]

but I guess if we could really teach kids to say no to sex and teaching them to believe that our bodies serve for more purpose than personal pleasure and recreation, well, we’d be making moral judgements. And secularists just don’t want that.

so true unfortunately… we are now learning that our attempt at a pluralist society is unsustainable.

 

[kalt]

I wonder if you would figure this of Jesus when he cleared the temple of the moneychangers

Are you equating yourself with Jesus!!

 

[Danny_OC]

Are you equating yourself with Jesus!!

Wouldn’t dare. My point is to show you that you should not judge one as a mental case because he shows anger (as these conditions would also cause you to judge Jesus as a mental case).

Jesus himself showed anger at others; probably to the point where they felt reallll bad. Who are we to say that this is immoral?

 

[kalt]

Thank you for this - this is so true. This is what I hear so much about the criticism and misunderstanding of abstinence education - that a pithy statement saying abstinence is the only 100% foolproof method of avoiding pregnancy is equal to an education about saying “no” to sex.

It is so much more than that - but I guess if we could really teach kids to say no to sex and teaching them to believe that our bodies serve for more purpose than personal pleasure and recreation, well, we’d be making moral judgements. And secularists just don’t want that.

This is what I’m talking about when I say that you have to pay attention to the social climate. To ignore the messages that women are getting from our society is foolhardy.

You have to know what you’re up against. The pro-life message is contrary to just about everything else these people hear in their lives, from their first sex ed class to the latest nightly news broadcast.

 

[kalt]

Wouldn’t dare. My point is to show you that you should not judge one as a mental case because he shows anger (as these conditions would also cause you to judge Jesus as a mental case).

Jesus himself showed anger at others; probably to the point where they felt reallll bad. Who are we to say that this is immoral?

This is the 2nd time you’ve made a direct comparison and then denied it when challenged about it.

 

[Danny_OC]

This is the 2nd time you’ve made a direct comparison and then denied it when challenged about it.

Really? Explain to me how exactly the grammar of what I said indicates that I am equating myself to Jesus. As a matter of fact, it does not. Let’s focus on the issue at hand, and the arguments I actually made, instead of being aimlessly picky over how I say it; shall we?

 

[Jennifer123]

You have to know what you’re up against.

This is why I cringe when I see Christian playing into the hands of the secularists, as these two men may have done. I don’t fault their anger and wouldn’t go so far as to say their efforts were entirely counter-productive, God will show them their fruits in good time, but we have to know the tactics of the enemy, and they love it when we act as they suspect we will based on their faulty beliefs about “Christians”.

Be wise as serpents and innocent as doves. This is why I implore us all to be knowledgeable of the world, of what’s happening in the media, know the tactics of the COD, so we can “speak the language” of the culture so as not to be mislead by the increasingly biased media machine.

 

[DebChris]

Thank you for this - this is so true. This is what I hear so much about the criticism and misunderstanding of abstinence education - that a pithy statement saying abstinence is the only 100% foolproof method of avoiding pregnancy is equal to an education about saying “no” to sex.

It is so much more than that - but I guess if we could really teach kids to say no to sex and teaching them to believe that our bodies serve for more purpose than personal pleasure and recreation, well, we’d be making moral judgements. And secularists just don’t want that.

At the Eucharistic Conference I heard a speaker who gives talks to young people about abstinence. She does not talk about sex as something dirty. Instead she uses John Paul II’s Theology of the Body Everything that God made is good. On the sixth day when He created man, he said it was very good.
She focuses on the beauty of the body and its goodness. When young people are taught about their value, they are more likely to protect themselves. They are less likely to engage in premarital sex. A expensive emerald is not worn everyday.

This is why I cringe when I see Christian playing into the hands of the secularists, as these two men may have done. I don’t fault their anger and wouldn’t go so far as to say their efforts were entirely counter-productive, God will show them their fruits in good time, but we have to know the tactics of the enemy, and they love it when we act as they suspect we will based on their faulty beliefs about “Christians”.

Be wise as serpents and innocent as doves. This is why I implore us all to be knowledgeable of the world, of what’s happening in the media, know the tactics of the COD, so we can “speak the language” of the culture so as not to be mislead by the increasingly biased media machine.

I have been taught from my earliest years that we are to live by the Golden Rule. “to treat others as we expect them to treat us” This not mean we agree with the words or actions of others. It does mean being respectful (“unconditional politeness”} at all times. “If you want respect, you must first show respect,” was a lesson constantly hammered by my father. When we show respect in all circumstances, those who disagree with us are more likely to at least stop and take the time to listen to what we have to offer.

 

[mmm1]

This disgusts me

I completely understand the anger that you & other posters are expressing. I am against abortion in every instance. But, Goofyjim didn’t say stand across the street. He said stand across the street & PRAY THE ROSARY. This disgusts you?

I think anyone who feels sickened by someone praying the rosary across the street needs to take a deep breath & spend some time in silent prayer. It has proven to be VERY effective. We have to remain calm & rational in this fight, & realize we are never going to win it ourselves but with the power of God. I thought Micheal John’s posts (who was a seminarian) were so true.

Many posters have expressed rage at the women going in. This kind of thing, & not understanding who the women are, does not help our cause. Some posters profess to care about the women & girls, & then express rage.

A few women know it’s a baby & happily go in to destroy baby after baby. That is rare. Most have been told since junior high that it is a clump of cells. In 7th gr. their boyfriends were given condoms in heath class. All their friends & family members tell them it’s a clump of cells & abortion is no big deal. A few sense it’s wrong but are scared to death. A 15 year kid raised in the culture of death is not guilty of murder. The scared 22 year old is not the same as a Nazi.

To claim that people who disagree with the tactic of screaming outside clinics are somehow less concerned about the unborn is just false. I think Father Pavone is against these tactics, & I know the people who organized the 40 Days for Life wouldn’t allow screaming. Many lives were saved by this campaign. You could hardly call them complacent or uncaring.

It is BECAUSE of our concern for life that these tactics bother us. We realize it often hurts our cause. For the times that screaming has caused a woman to not get an abortion, how many more run faster into the clinic to get away from the hateful guys outside (the women see them as hateful, anyway)? How many more go to another clinic or private doctor? How many people witness this kind of treatment, & then become escorts at the clinic? I dislike this kind of treatment because it makes pro-lifers looks bad AND, more importantly, hurts our cause.

Sorry so verbose, but I’m sick of claims that people that are opposed to certain tactics means they are not concerned for the unborn. Was Dr. Martin Luther King not commited to his cause when he preached non-violence? Many thought so. I think Haskilee’s earlier post about praying & being ready with resources for the women on both sides of the door was beautiful.

 

[Danny_OC]

Praying the rosary certainly does not disgust me; it is the absence of (and more severely here) the condemnation of action in the face of murder that disgusts me. What disgusts me is the notion that it is wrong for us to do anything to try to stop murder from happening because it might hurt someone’s feelings a little bit.

 

[Danny_OC]

I completely understand the anger that you & other posters are expressing. I am against abortion in every instance. But, Goofyjim didn’t say stand across the street. He said stand across the street & PRAY THE ROSARY. This disgusts you?

I think anyone who feels sickened by someone praying the rosary across the street needs to take a deep breath & spend some time in silent prayer. It has proven to be VERY effective. We have to remain calm & rational in this fight, & realize we are never going to win it ourselves but with the power of God. I thought Micheal John’s posts (who was a seminarian) were so true.

Many posters have expressed rage at the women going in. This kind of thing, & not understanding who the women are, does not help our cause. Some posters profess to care about the women & girls, & then express rage.

A few women know it’s a baby & happily go in to destroy baby after baby. That is rare. Most have been told since junior high that it is a clump of cells. In 7th gr. their boyfriends were given condoms in heath class. All their friends & family members tell them it’s a clump of cells & abortion is no big deal. A few sense it’s wrong but are scared to death. A 15 year kid raised in the culture of death is not guilty of murder. The scared 22 year old is not the same as a Nazi.

To claim that people who disagree with the tactic of screaming outside clinics are somehow less concerned about the unborn is just false. I think Father Pavone is against these tactics, & I know the people who organized the 40 Days for Life wouldn’t allow screaming. Many lives were saved by this campaign. You could hardly call them complacent or uncaring.

It is BECAUSE of our concern for life that these tactics bother us. We realize it often hurts our cause. For the times that screaming has caused a woman to not get an abortion, how many more run faster into the clinic to get away from the hateful guys outside (the women see them as hateful, anyway)? How many more go to another clinic or private doctor? How many people witness this kind of treatment, & then become escorts at the clinic? I dislike this kind of treatment because it makes pro-lifers looks bad AND, more importantly, hurts our cause.

Sorry so verbose, but I’m sick of claims that people that are opposed to certain tactics means they are not concerned for the unborn. Was Dr. Martin Luther King not commited to his cause when he preached non-violence? Many thought so. I think Haskilee’s earlier post about praying & being ready with resources for the women on both sides of the door was beautiful.

Let me clarify my stance.

I’m fine with people who dislike the screaming tactic and refuse to use it. Completely fine!!! In fact I commend them for standing outside an abortion clinic and praying the rosary.

What I cannot and will not stand for is people telling ME that I cannot yell at someone who is ON HER WAY TO MURDER A BABY. If the silently praying has not worked when she is a few steps away from the door, it probably isn’t going to work in the next 2 seconds. So you better believe I’m justified in yelling!!! If what you say is true, that they think its just a clump of cells, then exactly what we need is someone yelling at her that it is a human life she is on her way to end!!!

Was Dr. Martin Luther King not commited to his cause when he preached non-violence?

Woah I’ve never preached violence. And do recall that Dr. King’s words were not exactly always polite. And he was right in not always being polite.

 

[mmm1]

Praying the rosary certainly does not disgust me; it is the absence of (and more severely here) the condemnation of action in the face of murder that disgusts me. What disgusts me is the notion that it is wrong for us to do anything to try to stop murder from happening because it might hurt someone’s feelings a little bit.

Praying the rosary is not the absence of action. I submit to you that it is the most powerful kind of action. Most posters complaining about the screaming are just saying that it’s counterproductive, not condemning. We care about the unborn, so we don’t want actions to backfire. Higher fences, more escorts, more laws & police protection. Certainly we can’t do just anything to stop the murder. Many posts like this scream out the ends justifies the means, which isn’t true.

‘I can scream & intimidate as long as it works’. We are called to be Christ for others. To love the abortionist as well as the scared 16 yr. old being dragged by her mom. I can be angry with the abortionist, but I have to calm down & act like a Christian.

 

[Danny_OC]

Many posts like this scream out the ends justifies the means, which isn’t true.

‘I can scream & intimidate as long as it works’. We are called to be Christ for others.

Again I implore anyone who thinks that the ends never justify the means to examine Thomas Aquinas’ Doctrine of Double Effect.

 

[mmm1]

Let me clarify my stance.

I’m fine with people who dislike the screaming tactic and refuse to use it. Completely fine!!! In fact I commend them for standing outside an abortion clinic and praying the rosary.

-OK, DannyOC. Thanks for clarifying that, I really don’t mean to be arguing with you. I just wanted to make a few (long) points that people who don’t agree with these tactics are also pro-life. I honestly feel better that you said that. I do believe prayer, especially the rosary is very powerful.

What I cannot and will not stand for is people telling ME that I cannot yell at someone who is ON HER WAY TO MURDER A BABY. If the silently praying has not worked when she is a few steps away from the door, it probably isn’t going to work in the next 2 seconds. So you better believe I’m justified in yelling!!! If what you say is true, that they think its just a clump of cells, then exactly what we need is someone yelling at her that it is a human life she is on her way to end!!!

-I wouldn’t tell someone they couldn’t scream. I might try & convince those guys that it isn’t helpful, but I’d probably just really wish they wouldn’t. I wouldn’t condemn them & I do appreciate that they’re involved & doing something. I read months ago that 2 guys were standing on a platform on top of their car & counceling people over a fence. I think it was in Harrisburgh. The guy with the woman came over & knocked the guy off the platform. I think he was about 70 & was badly injured. My memory is sketchy, but the police did not help the man at 1st. They started to harrass his friend who was a witness. They refused to question or arrest the man who attacked the pro-lifer. He finally was sent to the ER with serious injuries. I fired off several angry e-mails to the police chief that was linked in the article I read. I was angry, & appreciated that they were there, trying.

Woah I’ve never preached violence. And do recall that Dr. King’s words were not exactly always polite. And he was right in not always being polite.

Sorry, I did not mean to imply that you preach or condone violence. A few posts I read (not necessarily yours) did have an ends justifies the means tone to them, though, & I think that can be misinterpreted by some. I forget the guys name on pg. 9, leftisdestroy, something like that, very angry posts that could insight people on the fringe. They are rare, but out there. So, I was scared by a few posts like that, but never meant to imply that you are violent. I am sorry that I wrote that in a way that you thought I was condemning you or calling violent. My husband is calling me to dinner & annoyed w/ my computer time, but I will check this thread later. I hope I didn’t offend you & appreciate your efforts.

 

[Danny_OC]

Sorry, I did not mean to imply that you preach or condone violence. A few posts I read (not necessarily yours) did have an ends justifies the means tone to them, though, & I think that can be misinterpreted by some. I forget the guys name on pg. 9, leftisdestroy, something like that, very angry posts that could insight people on the fringe. They are rare, but out there. So, I was scared by a few posts like that, but never meant to imply that you are violent. I am sorry that I wrote that in a way that you thought I was condemning you or calling violent. My husband is calling me to dinner & annoyed w/ my computer time, but I will check this thread later. I hope I didn’t offend you & appreciate your efforts.

Hey no harm done, and I too can certainly be a bit more crass on forums than I mean to be.

 

[DebChris]

Praying the rosary is not the absence of action. I submit to you that it is the most powerful kind of action. Most posters complaining about the screaming are just saying that it’s counterproductive, not condemning. We care about the unborn, so we don’t want actions to backfire. Higher fences, more escorts, more laws & police protection. Certainly we can’t do just anything to stop the murder. Many posts like this scream out the ends justifies the means, which isn’t true.

‘I can scream & intimidate as long as it works’. We are called to be Christ for others. To love the abortionist as well as the scared 16 yr. old being dragged by her mom. I can be angry with the abortionist, but I have to calm down & act like a Christian.

St. Paul admonishes us to “be angry but do not sin.”
The idea that the “ends justify the means” is contrary to the teachings of Christ and the Church.

 

[mmm1]

Again I implore anyone who thinks that the ends never justify the means to examine Thomas Aquinas’ Doctrine of Double Effect.

I haven’t read anything by Thomas Aquinas. From what I’ve heard, I’m intimidated that his stuff is over my head. I’ve heard of double effect before, I may have even learned it in college years ago when my brain was clearer, but I have to admit that at this point I have no clue what it means. I don’t mean to make you waste any time to explain it to me, just to let you know you’re over my head. Only 1 basic philosophy course under my belt, way too many years ago…

Also, in my previous post, I think it was #156, I tried to intersperse my quotes with yours, but I don’t really know how to do that. I hope you got the part about my being thankful that you clarified your position. I really was misinterpreting it. I maintain that certain tactics can backfire, but I can also be way too timid. In the real world I’m an absolute coward & afraid to speak up.

 

[KCtheMommy]

Oh we have a woman who protests this way. She will pound on car hoods and shake her fist.

Here is the thing to keep in mind: after doing it for close to 10 years, she can recognize and guess who will respond to what. And the truth is, some people do respond to this. She and her protest group probably turn around 15-25 girls a month with this method.

It’s not one that I’ve ever employed myself, but I can’t deny what I have seen with my own eyes: as the woman walks past the prayer group she never wavers, as she walks past the counsel/help group, she never wavers, as she starts to walk past a lady screaming not to tear her child apart and waving aborted children in her face, she stops and listens.

I’m also not saying this is a method to be used all the time. It appears to work with women who are being escorted by males and who are submissive or passive. The bluntness seems to drag them out of their submissive state, as if blinking after hypnosis. Also, having a very strong, loud group of protestors seems to make the male back off…I’ve seen women practically tied to the male escorts so they can’t run away.

Single women approaching on foot who are already “showing” (e.g. several months along) are the ones most receptive to a counseling method. They are eager for someone, anyone to take their hand and help them.

Or they just go to a different clinic.

 

[Danny_OC]

I haven’t read anything by Thomas Aquinas. From what I’ve heard, I’m intimidated that his stuff is over my head. I’ve heard of double effect before, I may have even learned it in college years ago when my brain was clearer, but I have to admit that at this point I have no clue what it means. I don’t mean to make you waste any time to explain it to me, just to let you know you’re over my head. Only 1 basic philosophy course under my belt, way too many years ago…

Also, in my previous post, I think it was #156, I tried to intersperse my quotes with yours, but I don’t really know how to do that. I hope you got the part about my being thankful that you clarified your position. I really was misinterpreting it. I maintain that certain tactics can backfire, but I can also be way too timid. In the real world I’m an absolute coward & afraid to speak up.

Ohh ok, I see; thanks for pointing that out, I didn’t notice that before. Glad we have found a settlement!

Double Effect is actually pretty simple, certainly not above your head. It goes as follows:

An action having foreseen harmful effects that are inseparable from the good effect is morally permissible if the following criteria are met:

-the act is not in and of itself evil
-the bad effect is not intended; nor is the good, intended effect a result of the bad effect. It must be independent of it.
-the good effect outweighs the bad effect; if the situation is grave enough to merit the bad effect. Harm must be diligently minimized as well.

I believe one of the examples Aquinas gave was the morally acceptable nature of killing an attacker if it is necessary to defend your own life.
It’s the same principle that is used to justify the creation of vaccines that may unfortunately have lethal side effects in a few, but will save far more people