Behavior at abortion clinic

[sosayi1960]

kalt;3611808]

Ok, fair enough. But we can add to this then:

1. If they(women) don’t know it’s a baby then their judgment is not fit to cross the street.
2. None of this changes the fact that it is all about them. Selfish. We have had 35 years of this debate. If they do not know it by now, they choose not to.

It’s not always a question about selfishness. If you can’t trust women to make a choice, how can you trust them with a baby?
Currently, in the news a man from Austria fathered 7 children with his own daughter. My God its deplorable. I can understand terminating one of those pregnancies.

It sure is easy pointing fingers and being self-righteous.
My God, how easy everything is in Fantasyland.
Even the name Destroyer implies a hedonistic attitude toward dissent.

The energy should be used to prevent pregnancy, promote alternatives to abortion.

Let the decision stand!

 

[Danny_OC]

In response to Fone Bone 2001

Yes. Do you? Because, frankly, the tactics you’re promoting only hinder the cause of saving unborn children’s lives. We can work to save the lives of unborn children in two ways:

1. Fighting to make abortion illegal
2. Convince women considering an abortion not to go through with it

That kind of yelling will only make them feel intimdated and scared. Why would a woman entering an abortion clinic feel comfortable approaching a person shouting at her as if she’s a Nazi? (And don’t say that’s not what it’s like, because that analogy was made by your side of this debate.)

My girlfriend’s mother runs a crisis pregnancy center, and she talks women into letting their children be born every day she goes into work. She is firm and clear, but also compassionate. You need both. You may think you can do both while shouting like that, but you’re wrong. The women considering an abortion will feel threatened and will be turned off to the pro-life message.

This is a lot of theory. We have people with experience on this thread saying that yelling can work, and is beneficial, under some circumstances. I will trust that over the wishy washy notion that “yelling will only make them feel intimidated.”

I didn’t say that the action she intends to commit isn’t murder.

All the more reason to let her know on her way in that she is indeed on her way to murder a baby! If physical distance or other factors means yelling is the only way to get that fact across, so be it!

Once again, very telling that your initial reaction is that “praying the rosary” does not constitute action, while yelling does. Seriously, now: which is likely to be more powerful?

Don’t badger me with semantics; you know what I mean. I believe in the power of the rosary as much as any Catholic.

So please, if you care about unborn children, just stop.

I wonder if you have any proven methods that are effective when the amiable approach has failed and she is literally 3 steps from the door and maintaining her momentum towards it… (rhetorical)

Again I just want to reiterate something: Hateful behavior is never under any circumstances justifiable. But a shout is not an intrinsically hateful act. It can be necessary to overcome some circumstance (distance/other things going on/very little time) or it can be an acceptable demonstration of righteous anger. And also as I’ve said, it is necessary to have an understanding of the Doctrine of Double Effect to see when an act that does do some harm is still right and just

 

[Danny_OC]

… I can understand terminating one of those pregnancies.
…

How about saying this to the face of the child of God that was born from one of these pregnancies?

“You should have been murdered.”

Wake up. Abortion is evil. It cannot be justified.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

Currently, in the news a man from Austria fathered 7 children with his own daughter. My God its deplorable. I can understand terminating one of those pregnancies.

I can’t even comprehend that, it’s so disgusting. But at least as disgusting as sevenfold incest is that those children’s manner of conception removes their very right to live. They are people like anyone else, and their right to live should not be questioned. It’s a very slippery slope you’re on here. If we are allowed to define which kinds of people are disposable (in this case, according to you, those conceived by incest), then what’s next?

This is a lot of theory.

Nope. Just cold hard reality.

We have people with experience on this thread saying that yelling can work, and is beneficial, under some circumstances.

Then I suppose we should get more specific. Of course I’m not opposed to direct communication with women entering abortion clinics, but I also have people with experience that I know (I already mentioned her in my previous reply) who have found far more effective ways to save lives. Also:

I will trust that over the wishy washy notion that “yelling will only make them feel intimidated.”

First of all, if a person is used to yelling like that as a part of this kind of work, then I’d seriously question in the first place their ability to assess the results of their tactics.

And sometimes people are wishy-washy. It doesn’t matter if your intention isn’t to intimidate - although others in this thread on your side (like leftistdestroye) apparently relish the opportunity to intimidate them - they will in all likelihood feel intimidated. You seem averse to considering the subjectivity inherent in the situation, but we have to, because it is relevant, and lives are at stake.

All the more reason to let her know on her way in that she is indeed on her way to murder a baby! If physical distance or other factors means yelling is the only way to get that fact across, so be it!

If only it were that easy. “Oh, by the way, you do know that you’re about to murder your child, right?”

“Oh, really? Dang, I didn’t know that! Guess I just kind of missed that somehow. Well, I’m not having an abortion now. Thanks, bye!”

Somehow that doesn’t seem realistic to me.

Don’t badger me with semantics; you know what I mean. I believe in the power of the rosary as much as any Catholic.

I believe you. Still, I don’t think it was just a matter of semantics. Look at what you typed:

Praying the rosary certainly does not disgust me; it is the absence of (and more severely here) the condemnation of action in the face of murder that disgusts me.

I don’t think the implication of that sentence is just a matter of semantics (nor do I assume that it is indicative of your overall view, however).

I wonder if you have any proven methods that are effective when the amiable approach has failed and she is literally 3 steps from the door and maintaining her momentum towards it… (rhetorical)

I wonder if you have a backup plan for what happens after yelling has failed, lives have been lost, and more hearts have been hardened against life. (rhetorical)

Again I just want to reiterate something: Hateful behavior is never under any circumstances justifiable. But a shout is not an intrinsically hateful act.

Absolutely. I don’t mean to imply that you think hateful behavior is acceptable (although I wish I could say the same for all others on your side in this thread); you clearly don’t. And of course I acknowledge that a shout is not intrinsically hateful.

But the fact is that if a woman entering an abortion clinic is scared and/or ignorant, she will in all likelihood perceive it that way. I’ve heard a man yell at an escort - NOT the woman, but listen to this - “I hope you wash the blood off your hands before you go home and kiss your children and eat dinner tonight.”

Now, does that escort deserve that condemnation? I don’t deny it at all. Did hearing that scare the woman he was escorting, make her a little frightened of us pro-lifers on the sidewalk? I can’t imagine it wouldn’t.

So it doesn’t matter if the act itself of yelling is objectively hateful; if it is perceived as hateful, that only hinders the goal of actively saving lives.

And as this thread shows, some people - again, clearly not you, judging from your posts - don’t even do it to save lives, but just to vent. And I understand that completely, but when I find myself upset about the evils of abortion, the doorstep of an abortion clinic is not the place to be.

And the way such yelling will be perceived is also relevant in another way: remember that we also want to get abortion in this country outlawed. The secular media often perpetuates stereotypes of pro-lifers as mean, nasty, yelling, hateful people. Is it true? Of course not. But inadvertently giving them ammo for their propoganda will make it harder and harder to get abortion outlawed. After all, what politician wants to listen to people regarded as monsters?

So it’s not that I’m concerned with our reputation for its own sake, or with always being nice. Rather, it’s that these tactics hinder the goal of saving innocent unborn lives.

How about saying this to the face of the child of God that was born from one of these pregnancies?

“You should have been murdered.”

Wake up. Abortion is evil. It cannot be justified.

Well put, Danny.

 

[Danny_OC]

As a relative newcomer to this whole thing, I can’t argue very strongly one way or the other for what general types of tactics will generally work best; I’m just going by what other people on this thread are saying. I’ve so far read some pretty sober testimonies that they’ve seen the more confrontational method work.

I understand that you don’t see the yelling as wrong, but instead a tactic that will not win the war most effectively. This is a lot better than the opinion that some on this thread appear to be espousing; that yelling at someone is not even justifiable if it is an attempt to stop abortion (this is the main notion that I wanted to argue against here).

But I still don’t know if I can agree that yelling is not an effective tactic to consistently employ. I feel that if it is strategically considered, it can certainly have its place. Let’s say we do win them over to our side, and they do realize that abortion truly is murder… won’t they be wondering why we didn’t yell more? And if we are going to apply the Golden Rule, shouldn’t we do the father of this baby (charitably assuming he doesn’t want the abortion to happen) the justice of our best attempt to stop his son or daughter from having a pair of scissors jammed into his/her brain? I feel that acting amiably here is almost dishonest.

 

[Danny_OC]

“I hope you wash the blood off your hands before you go home and kiss your children and eat dinner tonight.”

Now, does that escort deserve that condemnation? I don’t deny it at all. Did hearing that scare the woman he was escorting, make her a little frightened of us pro-lifers on the sidewalk? I can’t imagine it wouldn’t.

Wow, powerful words. So true though. You are right, this probably would scare the woman. It is unfortunate to have to do this… but I think that a woman who hears this will be profoundly impacted. Rarely are words like this spoken, despite how very true they are. I do believe many women are conflicted as to whether or not to go through with the murder of their children; this could be a strong push in the right direction, and the only time she’ll hear it is on her way into the clinic. All the rest of the time it will be her desire to live as she wishes that permeates her consciousness. Now it will be cold, hard, fearsome truth. I commend this man for his courage to say something like that.

 

[neat62]

It’s not always a question about selfishness. If you can’t trust women to make a choice, how can you trust them with a baby?
Currently, in the news a man from Austria fathered 7 children with his own daughter. My God its deplorable. I can understand terminating one of those pregnancies.

It sure is easy pointing fingers and being self-righteous.
My God, how easy everything is in Fantasyland.
Even the name Destroyer implies a hedonistic attitude toward dissent.

The energy should be used to prevent pregnancy, promote alternatives to abortion.

Let the decision stand!

This post is appalling…talk about self-righteous…

You are willing to correct ONE wrong/evil, by committing another…that in itself is deplorable!

And you know there are alternatives to the heinous murder of the unborn…namely, ADOPTION and even simpler…ABSTINENCE!

The solution is pretty simple, but SELF ABSORBED people, who believe that they should be allowed to do whatever they please without CONSEQUENCE, support outrageous laws that allow for the killing of the most vulnerable and needy among us and they do so because THEY are the HEDONISTIC, SELF-RIGHTEOUS, and SINFUL…I hestitate to even say, “human”…beings!

 

[dixieagle]

This is the type of information that is needed. I did not know about Project Gabriel. The Catholic Church (not the Cathedral) in Galveston has a plaque on the side of the church inviting women in a crisis pregnancy to come for help. The only stipulation made is that the woman choose life for her child. We should be reaching out to these women (and men) with the compassionate love of Christ, not accusation.

My 26 year old daughter, in Austin, and her husband (the Catholic evolutionary biologist I have referred to in other threads) have been very involved in the Gabriel Project for years. They, working through their parish, take a very hands-on approach to expectant moms in difficult circumstances, bringing diapers, baby clothes, furniture, whatever is needed. My daughter has often cooked and brought meals to the moms and their families, she and her dh visit them in the hospital and afterwards, encourage them with regard to continuing their educations and serve as mentors in any way possible. They also maintain an ongoing relationship as long as is desired by the mom. Most of the women are single, though some have been married and in impoverished circumstances.

Instead of giving each other gifts this past Christmas, dd and her dh gave a special gift to one of these couples who were working hard and had little.

They are also involved in pro-life ministries in other ways, as well; Adoration, pro-life rallies, constantly praying. DD works at a Catholic agency that provides transitional housing for homeless women and their young children, providing guidance and steering them towards jobs, training or education, helping to ensure that they never find themselves in a position where they would feel they have to consider abortion.

She and her husband exemplify, to me, all that is good about the pro-life movement, in which we have all been involved since before Roe v. Wade. One thing you will NEVER find them doing is screaming at women entering a clinic. They would shake their heads in astonishment that anyone could believe this could ever be effective.

We must never forget “What would Jesus do?” I have a feeling that shouting and screaming would have no place in how He would try to reach these women’s hearts.

God bless.

 

[porthos11]

I think Fr. Corapi has the best suggestion.

Open an adoration chapel next door or across the abortion clinic, and expose the Blessed Sacrament. Get people to adore 24/7. The evil will flee.

 

[SoUnhappy80]

I used to go protest at a abortion clinic that was near a university that I went to.
Our personal approach was the “favored” protest by the clinic staff because we didn’t harrass them or the ladies going in. And we were told by a staff member that we were far more effective swaying ladies going in than other protesters.

What was our approach you ask?
We would sit about 10-15 feet from the entrance and pray the Rosary out loud in a group or we would sing some P&W songs. If the ladies stopped and talked to us, we talked back. Otherwise, we just added them to our list of petitions. More than once I remember seeing ladies walk in and walk out about 10 minutes later, thanking us for our presence that made them rethink their decision. We carried numbers for a good crisis pregnancy center that we would give them, along with the location of a 240hour adoration chapel.

I had an abortion when I was young and stupid. Worst mistake of my life and lots of pressure to do it. All I can say is when I got there I had people yelling at me and actually trying to shove things into the car against it. True, it really made me want to get inside and away from them. I think that if I had good people like you there maybe with signs saying we are here to talk if you want and that’s it, or whatever, maybe my husband or I would have gone over and not done what we did. I wish you were there when i was :crying:

 

[SoUnhappy80]

!

The solution is pretty simple, but SELF ABSORBED people, who believe that they should be allowed to do whatever they please without CONSEQUENCE, support outrageous laws that allow for the killing of the most vulnerable and needy among us and they do so because THEY are the HEDONISTIC, SELF-RIGHTEOUS, and SINFUL…I hestitate to even say, “human”…beings!

Wow, you seem full of hate. If I am not human, what am I?

Question - do you say this to women who regret abortion - as most end up doing? You know nothing of their situation so don’t judge them in this way. Pray that they come to God. I can’t believe what I hear coming out of some "christians’ mouths sometimes.

'Here is another example from Leftistdestroye “Getting knocked up at a motel, does not condemn the death of a baby.”

Where’s the Christianity with that statement? I get you feel carried away, but watch your mouth please :tsktsk: I don’t see who you are bennefitting by writing such things and by insluting women thinking of getting abortions, you are not getting them to change their minds - on the contrary, you are driving them away.

If you found out a woman had an abortion and you were saying these things to her, would it change your tone if you found out she had been raped? I had a man in college try to get into my apartment and I found out the next day he was wanted for several rapes. If one of those women made the decision to abort, even if we feel it’s a wrong choice - would you feel bad if you were outside the clinic and told her to grow up and not abort the baby she conceived in a “cheap motel room”, or calling her an inhuman devil freak when she turns around and told you she was raped on her school camput and her parents are forcing her, or whatever. Not every woman who has an abortion is an inhuman weirdo who conceived a baby in a “cheap motel room”. Even the Pope says he prays for women and what they go through - do you see him as an example or not?

 

[DebChris]

My 26 year old daughter, in Austin, and her husband (the Catholic evolutionary biologist I have referred to in other threads) have been very involved in the Gabriel Project for years. They, working through their parish, take a very hands-on approach to expectant moms in difficult circumstances, bringing diapers, baby clothes, furniture, whatever is needed. My daughter has often cooked and brought meals to the moms and their families, she and her dh visit them in the hospital and afterwards, encourage them with regard to continuing their educations and serve as mentors in any way possible. They also maintain an ongoing relationship as long as is desired by the mom. Most of the women are single, though some have been married and in impoverished circumstances.

Instead of giving each other gifts this past Christmas, dd and her dh gave a special gift to one of these couples who were working hard and had little.

They are also involved in pro-life ministries in other ways, as well; Adoration, pro-life rallies, constantly praying. DD works at a Catholic agency that provides transitional housing for homeless women and their young children, providing guidance and steering them towards jobs, training or education, helping to ensure that they never find themselves in a position where they would feel they have to consider abortion.

She and her husband exemplify, to me, all that is good about the pro-life movement, in which we have all been involved since before Roe v. Wade. One thing you will NEVER find them doing is screaming at women entering a clinic. They would shake their heads in astonishment that anyone could believe this could ever be effective.

We must never forget “What would Jesus do?” I have a feeling that shouting and screaming would have no place in how He would try to reach these women’s hearts.

God bless.

Thank you for your post. Every year, our diocese sets aside a day when we form Life Chains. Almost everybody in our parish participates, standing in silence on the busiest street in town.

When I write congressmen or letters to the editor, I always include what I have been saying since I was in high school.
Without Life there is No Liberty.

 

[leftistdestroye]

Fone Bone 2001;3618551]

This post is very telling. As I said before, there are two ways we can work to save unborn lives: work to make abortion illegal, and work to convince individual women considering abortions to have their children.

Harassing women considering an abortion, making them “feel afraid” and being satisfied if they see us as “the enemy” will seriously hinder both these goals.

Do you want to save unborn lives, or do you just want to vent your anger? You can’t do both here. You must choose. If you really believe abortion is murder, you will put aside your anger, swallow your pride, and do what will actually save lives.

Well I’ll tell ya. At the protests, where I do presently act polite, we are ignored and spit at. You are telling me that that will or is making progress?? They are used to us and just ignore us now. I say we let them know that we are there. In 35 years, we have not achieved a reduction, the numbers hold. Sure, there was a reduction recently as reported, but that was because of the morning after pill, not us. You had your turn, now it’ ours. Stigmas worked well enough in the past, time to reinstate it.

 

[leftistdestroye]

=sosayi1960;3618604]

It’s not always a question about selfishness. If you can’t trust women to make a choice, how can you trust them with a baby?
Currently, in the news a man from Austria fathered 7 children with his own daughter. My God its deplorable. I can understand terminating one of those pregnancies.

It sure is easy pointing fingers and being self-righteous.
My God, how easy everything is in Fantasyland.
Even the name Destroyer implies a hedonistic attitude toward dissent.

Let the decision stand!

The most common reasons for abortion are, in fact, selfish reasons. My opinion, there is no valid reason for abortion. And destoryer says that I have had it with the murder of innocent babies. You want to sit on your but, talk nicey nice, and accomplish nothing, the be my guest. And if one kills her child, you can bet your butt that I am gunna point a finger! And we will tell tham that this will no longer be tolerated! So you keep comfortable and let me deal with it.

The energy should be used to prevent pregnancy, promote alternatives to abortion.

And by all means, I agree.

 

[leftistdestroye]

SoUnhappy80;3622455]

'Here is another example from Leftistdestroye “Getting knocked up at a motel, does not condemn the death of a baby.”

Where’s the Christianity with that statement? I get you feel carried away, but watch your mouth please :tsktsk:

We have bigger issues to fight like abortion, than my mouth that may offend wimps.

I don’t see who you are bennefitting by writing such things and by insluting women thinking of getting abortions, you are not getting them to change their minds - on the contrary, you are driving them away.

That is BS. It is the nicecy nice talk that allowed this to happen. It was complacency, and polite silence that watched 40 million babies die. 40 million dead, and it is my words that did it? Wrong?

If you found out a woman had an abortion and you were saying these things to her, would it change your tone if you found out she had been raped? I had a man in college try to get into my apartment and I found out the next day he was wanted for several rapes. If one of those women made the decision to abort, even if we feel it’s a wrong choice - would you feel bad if you were outside the clinic and told her to grow up and not abort the baby she conceived in a “cheap motel room”, or calling her an inhuman devil freak when she turns around and told you she was raped on her school camput and her parents are forcing her, or whatever. Not every woman who has an abortion is an inhuman weirdo who conceived a baby in a “cheap motel room”.

Yep! It’s not the babies fault.

Even the Pope says he prays for women and what they go through - do you see him as an example or not?

Oh, I do pray for them.

 

[SoUnhappy80]

SoUnhappy80;3622455]

We have bigger issues to fight like abortion, than my mouth that may offend wimps.

Are you calling me a wimp? HOW VERY CHRISTIAN OF YOU

That is BS. It is the nicecy nice talk that allowed this to happen. It was complacency, and polite silence that watched 40 million babies die. 40 million dead, and it is my words that did it? Wrong?

Sorry, but it’s what you are saying that is B.S. Have you had an abortion? I have - don’t tell ME what would have worked on ME and other women that have/had been in my situation. I know better than you what women go through and what would work with them - and it’s NOT your way

Yep! It’s not the babies fault.

Wow, you sure are good at putting words in people’s mouths. exactly - it’s the baby’s fault. That’s EXACTLY what I said . I doubt if you were shouting at a woman and she walked right up to you and said she was walking home from the library one night, got raped, and found out she was pregnant and here out of fear and then proceeded to walk to the buildin gthat you would call her a insensitive inhuman cheap motel baby murderer after knowing her situation and if you do, you are just as “coldhearted” as those you are poking fun of and insulting.

Oh, I do pray for them.

well, at least that’s nice

And on a final note - thank God there are not people such as this at Rachel’s Vineyard. I doubt it would be as successfull as it is today with insulting people saying these kinds of things.

 

[leftistdestroye]

SoUnhappy80;3622750

Are you calling me a wimp?

If what I said offended you, then yes, I am.

Sorry, but it’s what you are saying that is B.S. Have you had an abortion? I have - don’t tell ME what would have worked on ME and other women that have/had been in my situation

I am telling you what HAS NOT worked. We still have and have had over 1 million abortions a year for 35 years. Nothing stopped you, did it?

Wow, you sure are good at putting words in people’s mouths. exactly - it’s the baby’s fault. That’s EXACTLY what I said .

Well, that is NOT what you said, and besides, rape is less than 1%. I do not plan to pull each one aside, find outher story, and yell at them individually. I say its a baby! It is alive! Dont do it! its murder! The reasons do not concern me, the life of the life does.

 

[neat62]

Originally Posted by leftistdestroye
SoUnhappy80;3622455]

We have bigger issues to fight like abortion, than my mouth that may offend wimps.

Are you calling me a wimp? HOW VERY CHRISTIAN OF YOU

Actually, I read it as his calling those who have abortions “whimps” who can’t take it, but have NO problem with crushing their babies bones and tearing them apart.

That is BS. It is the nicecy nice talk that allowed this to happen. It was complacency, and polite silence that watched 40 million babies die. 40 million dead, and it is my words that did it? Wrong?

Sorry, but it’s what you are saying that is B.S. Have you had an abortion? I have - don’t tell ME what would have worked on ME and other women that have/had been in my situation

Hmm…well this can be debated…because just last week, I met a woman at a walk for pro-life in which she did state…“I wish someone yelled at me and informed me of the true horrors of abortion, because I wouldn’t have done it! But instead, NO ONE said anything and I thought it was okay…I was young and naive.”

Then she went on to tell me how she married soon after and now has five children, but that not a day goes by that she doesn’t wish she had the one she so selfishly murdered.

Yep! It’s not the babies fault.

Wow, you sure are good at putting words in people’s mouths. exactly - it’s the baby’s fault. That’s EXACTLY what I said .

Well…you pretty much incinuated that it must be the baby’s fault, cause after all…those who commit the act that may cause pregnancy have NO IDEA as to what they are doing…

Oh, I do pray for them.

well, at least that’s nice

Sure…its really easy to assume that because you don’t agree with his position that he’s simply “not nice”…huh? He’s shared why he believes speaking out loudly is important…because for over 35 years the current “treat them with kit gloves” hasn’t worked!

How can we actually get society to fully understand the true horror of abortion if we are not prepared to expose it for what it is? We want society to consider it immoral, yet we offer NO reasons why it should be…sigh…

 

[SoUnhappy80]

SoUnhappy80;3622750

If what I said offended you, then yes, I am.

Wow - Yes, it did offend me.

I am telling you what HAS NOT worked. We still have and have had over 1 million abortions a year for 35 years. Nothing stopped you, did it?

If you are talking about people screaming at me and trying to break into my car and throw things are me, then no that did not work, not can I see how anyone would see it would.

Well, that is NOT what you said, and besides, rape is less than 1%. I do not plan to pull each one aside, find outher story, and yell at them individually. I say its a baby! It is alive! Dont do it! its murder! The reasons do not concern me, the life of the life does.

The mother’s life is matters too. For every one you bring to you by yelling at them they are murderers, there are 3 or 4 you could have helped if you asked them their story and they just walked in the door already feeling depressed and now worse. As the posters said previously, we get such a cold reception from the ones that are supposed to be on God’ side and when you walk in, you get comforting nurses and counselors. It may be twisted, but the fact is, you are driving the women away from the TRUTH and pushing them to the ones that want to take their money and babies - and the mothers are relieved because no one is screaming and calling them horrible names. It may not be what you like, but it’s how it is.

It may not have sounded like that’s what I meant, but I did mean that. Sorry if it came off wrong. Thanks for responding.

 

[SoUnhappy80]

Actually, I read it as his calling those who have abortions “whimps” who can’t take it, but have NO problem with crushing their babies bones and tearing them apart.

Thanks, make me feel like c-r-a-p more.

Then she went on to tell me how she married soon after and now has five children, but that not a day goes by that she doesn’t wish she had the one she so selfishly murdered.

And do you think that most women after abortion don’t think this? You’re wrong if you think they walk out of there not giving a dang and not wishing they hadn’t done it later. Stop jumping on me and trying to make me feel horrible. I already do that myself. How hypocritcal - you say there’s forgiveness but then you tell me how I tore my baby limb for limb. Which is it - am I forgived or not??? Do you enjoy hurting women who are already hurting?.

Well…you pretty much incinuated that it must be the baby’s fault, cause after all…those who commit the act that may cause pregnancy have NO IDEA as to what they are doing…

Show me where I said this - NOWHERE did I say it was the baby’s fault. Please show me my EXACT words where I said this.

Sure…its really easy to assume that because you don’t agree with his position that he’s simply “not nice”…huh? He’s shared why he believes speaking out loudly is important…because for over 35 years the current “treat them with kit gloves” hasn’t worked!

From what I am reading, unfortunately I do not see your posts as “nice”. As someone said above, maybe because it’s on the cold internet where you can’t see emotion - but if you could see me now, you would see you are reducing me to tears. I feel like some are happy to make someone that feels like dirt to feel even lower. COLOR]