Behavior at abortion clinic

[mmm1]

The idea that the “ends justify the means” is contrary to the teachings of Christ and the Church.

That’s what I was trying to post, I’m not sure if you were agreeing with me or not. Danny OC posted that the ends sometimes does justify the means, I guess by the principle of double effect. But I’m in deep water at this point in the thread.

I just remember watching a show on EWTN months ago. I forget the name of it, but the woman is involved with Project Rachel. She was talking with a man, & they were saying that we should always be careful with the words we choose. I could talk with my family over the holidays, & tell my sisters that I would never vote for a babykiller. My niece really respects me, but if she hears this, will she confide in me that her best friend is pregnant? I know this is getting off topic, but the point of their conversation was that you never know who is listening.

We want to make sure the people in our lives, especially the young people, feel comfortable approaching us with problems. I was debating pre-implantation diagnosing on-line a few years ago on a secular site. A woman was saying she & her husband had used invitro & had “selectively reduced” several embryos. Their doctor convinced them it was the right thing to do, & she had no idea it was morally wrong. The minute she said it, a woman who identified herself as a Christian prolifer asked her what it was like to murder her other babies. I physically winced at the comment. The woman who had used in vitro had no idea she had done anything wrong, but there was no chance now to explain anything to her. She did not return to the discussion after that comment. I see some of your points, but I do feel we have to be careful how we come across.

 

[Danny_OC]

but I do feel we have to be careful how we come across.

This is very true, and being slow to anger is indeed a virtue.

My thoughts are just that when a woman is actually walking from her car to the clinic door, there’s barely any time. Pro lifers need a quick and effective way to convey to her the true meaning of what she is about to do, in case she is uninformed. I think that strong words and graphic images, though far from amiable, may just be our best bet.

 

[mmm1]

Ohh ok, I see; thanks for pointing that out, I didn’t notice that before. Glad we have found a settlement!

Double Effect is actually pretty simple, certainly not above your head. It goes as follows:

An action having foreseen harmful effects that are inseparable from the good effect is morally permissible if the following criteria are met:

-the act is not in and of itself evil
-the bad effect is not intended; nor is the good, intended effect a result of the bad effect. It must be independent of it.
-the good effect outweighs the bad effect; if the situation is grave enough to merit the bad effect. Harm must be diligently minimized as well.

I believe one of the examples Aquinas gave was the morally acceptable nature of killing an attacker if it is necessary to defend your own life.
It’s the same principle that is used to justify the creation of vaccines that may unfortunately have lethal side effects in a few, but will save far more people

Thanks for taking the time to explain it! I know I’ve heard people talking about this when it comes to surgery for tubal pregnancies, but I never followed it. My eyes are glazing over a bit from confusion, but I do understand it better. Thanks…

 

[mmm1]

This is very true, and being slow to anger is indeed a virtue.

My thoughts are just that when a woman is actually walking from her car to the clinic door, there’s barely any time. Pro lifers need a quick and effective way to convey to her the true meaning of what she is about to do, in case she is uninformed. I think that strong words and graphic images, though far from amiable, may just be our best bet.

Sigh, I imagine you’re right. Especially in those instances when they’re steps from the door. I don’t mean to say that we have to concede that we’re not going to reach everyone, but this is a supernatural fight we’re in. I never think that any of the babies lost are acceptable losses, but I do take comfort that they’re with Jesus when pro-lifers’ efforts fail. I do think that a woman who goes through this & is treated with kindness can change her mind after. Women like that become very powerful witnesses for life. The women in the Silent No More campaign are very effective. They’ve been there & aren’t afraid to speak out. I’m sure I’m kidding myself, but sometimes I think even when we lose the battle we may someday win the war. (I really don’t mean to down play the loss of individual babies here) .
Anyway, you are making me see the side of some of the people who employ these tactics. I used to think they were all just really out of touch yellers who had little effect, but some of them are staging a last-ditch desperate attempt. I get that a little better now.

 

[mmm1]

Husband annoyed again. Thanks for the discussion!

 

[urban1976]

I’ve resisted replying on this thread for some time. There is a LOT of ignorance being thrown out all over. First, for anyone that says the people who go out there are judging anyone and don’t care at all for the mothers, you are either blinded to the truth or VERY ignorant. Before my children and family responsibilities, I spent a lot of time “protesting” at the death mills. Very, very, very few of the people, I’d say none of the regulars, judge those women. Pity is a far better word. There are a LOT of organizations out there to help the babies AND their mothers escape whatever in life they need to get away from.
Now, I can’t speak totally for every city, but I can speak for my own. In our town we used to have 3 different mills. The police you see out there, they weren’t there for the women going into the mills. The were off duty police that were hired by the pro life side for protection. A good sum of the “pro-choice” people that go out there can be very very nasty people to deal with. There were a couple of local ones that actually had been arrested because the police would catch them abusing the “protesters”. You could really see the work of satan out there as they could be getting really nasty and we would say the “exorcism prayer”, there is a name for it that escapes me at the moment. That is a powerful prayer. You could very noticeably see a metamorphosis take place and it would become very docile after that prayer. There are general rules you follow. One, men, keep quiet. Period. The women going in don’t respond well to them even when done very quiet and lovingly. We always tried to keep what was called a sidewalk counselor there, again always a woman, that was trained in what to say and how to say it. Yes, the farther away the woman got the louder the counselor would talk, never what I would call “yelling” but out of necessity for the woman going in to hear her she would be talking quite loudly. The rest of the group outside of the 1-3 sidewalk counselors that would be there were pretty much suppose to quietly walk and pray for all involved. Pray for the baby that is about to be torn limb from limb at no fault of their own. Pray for the mother who whether she realizes or not what she is doing, is having her baby killed. So often years later those poor women have severe psychological problems because they realize what they did. Pray for the father that may be the culprit that insisted, or may even be very against it. I had a friend that after high school got a girl pregnant and against his will she killed it. She did by the way acknowledge it was a baby and she was killing it, it just didn’t fit in with what she wanted for her life at that moment. He has never been the same. I pray for and pity my friend. He will never forget his child that he won’t know till after he dies. Lastly pray for the staff of the mill. Pray that they quit, repent, and can deal with what they’ve done in their past.
Now, if this form of strategic “yelling” is considered “not effective” then I’d say said person needs to do some more research and not make such bad judgments. Now, I don’t think those men were doing the best thing they could have done at the moment they were yelling, BUT even if misguided, at least they cared enough about the mother and the baby to try SOMETHING. Kalt, I hope as you shopped that garage sale, you at least said a small prayer for the woman they were shouting at. Perhaps one for the misguided men. Legal or not, abortion is a horrible horrible thing that I hope no one EVER learns to accept anything about. If every prolife person in america would just so much as pray earnestly every day and insist on not voting for ANYONE who supported killing, how much would be different today?

On a last note, in the coldness of the internet, I hope no one takes this as a personal attack. It is not intended as one in the slightest.

Shawn

 

[neat62]

“I’d be screaming at you if I saw you in person.”

And I wouldn’t listen to you.

If you choose to address me with respect, I will listen to what you have to say. I may not agree with you, even after you’ve given your best argument, but I will listen.

If you choose to scream, I will turn away and wonder what happened in your life that as an adult you can’t address someone you disagree with without screaming. I will figure that you need therapy and hope that somedau you get it, and will become a happier and more self-assured person. .

Good luck,.

Actually, time after time, it is those who are behaving respectfully that are spit upon, shouted at and basically harassed…while praying the Rosary, while attempting to “talk” to those entering the abortion clinics, etc. Nine times out of ten…it is those on the pro-abortion side that start yelling and screaming, shouting obscenities and making vulgar gestures to those who “peacefully and respectfully” protest against the murder of the babies.

And if there is ANYTHING worth getting angry over…ANYTHING worth shouting about…WHY NOT abortion? The murder of the weakest and most vulnerable among us…MYSELF, I find that I definitely RESPECT those who are so willing to shout and scream to SAVE an unborn child from the vicious pulling apart of their bones and crushing of their skulls!

While I find those who sit back and openly “accept” this horrific act as simply a woman’s “choice” extremely dysfunctional, highly offensive, incredibly insensitive, heartless and cruel and absolutely mentally disabled!

 

[leftistdestroye]

kalt;3611031]

And that’s the point. Our society does consider abortion acceptable. Not only acceptable, but legal. The women going in don’t only have the legal right to do this, they are protected by the police from those who think it’s wrong.

But harsh treatment was what kept it unacceptable. It needs to be reinstalled.

Think about the message that sends to the women going in, and to those who may become pregnant in the future.

If anyone thinks that screaming and otherwise behaving badly at the clinics is a good thing, think about that scene.

The police are there to protect the women from you. The authority figures in our cities are there to protect the women from the screamers.

If prolife people hadn’t behaved badly at the clinics, we wouldn’ t have the police protecting the people they (the prolifers) are saying are committing murder.

Think about the last image these women see as they enter the clinic–police there to escort them into the clinic, protecting them from those who are telling them that they’re killing a baby.

If that doesn’t send the message that the people outside the clinic are the ones the woman needs to be afraid of, I don’t know what does.

The screamers have seen to it that this is set up so that the prolifers have to fight an uphill battle now. The police are there to hold them back, as if they’re a bunch of lunatics. That makes it look like the people in the clinic, the ones who will perform the murder, are the good guys!!!

Behave yourselves, ladies and gentlemen, if you want to have any credibility with those going in.

We have no credibillity now. We are losing, Now. We will not get it overturned. Time to kick some butt. If we get enough angry people involved, the politicans will take note. Polite talk is failing. Enough is enough. Sorry, pal, but you are wrong.

 

[leftistdestroye]

kalt;3611022]

They need education. “Loser” is not educational.

But by law, we cannot get close enough to “educate” them. So not only do we need to fight the clinics, but we also need to fight the law. It is bad law, it is wrong, and it must end.

 

[leftistdestroye]

That isn’t what intent and motive mean.

Meaning: you can believe an action is not murder; but if it is murder, you still *intend *to murder if you purposefully undergo this certain action.

Meaning: these women probably are not moved by a desire to kill, but more likely a desire to avoid inconvenience.

The only way a woman getting an abortion could not *intend *to murder would be if A. abortion were not murder (which it is) or B. she didn’t know she was going to get an abortion, instead the doctor just did it.

And if your first post was correct, the men didn’t just scream “loser,” they indicated their opinion that going into the abortion clinic would make them a loser; hence they should not go in. Not a bad fact for a woman intent to murder a baby to know.

The bottom line I’m afraid is; you need to sort your priorities. Start being more concerned with preventing the gruesome lethal mutilation of an innocent baby than with preventing the possibility of hurting a woman’s feelings a little bit.

Now, I can understand if you think their methods are not effective, and avoid using them yourself. That’s fine. But you’re going far beyond that. You are bashing these men for doing it, while you stood by idly doing nothing. You seem to have more of a problem with yelling than you do with murder. I don’t even recall seeing you condemn abortion on this thread. I am also unclear as to what facts you are basing your stance “yelling achieves nothing” on. It seems you don’t even have much experience to go by; as the people here who *do *have experience have stated that yelling can work. All of your arguments on this thread are so utterly unjustifiable in every sense…

:clapping:

 

[leftistdestroye]

kalt;3611778]

And I wouldn’t listen to you.
If you choose to address me with respect, I will listen to what you have to say. I may not agree with you, even after you’ve given your best argument, but I will listen.

Yeah, but in reality, there is no talking. We are not allowed to get that close to those going in to slaughter their kid. Plus, they don’t want to listen! I don’t know if you have ever been to a protest, but there is no discussion. So in reality, if we want dialog, we HAVE to shout.

If you choose to scream, I will turn away and wonder what happened in your life that as an adult you can’t address someone you disagree with without screaming. I will figure that you need therapy and hope that somedau you get it, and will become a happier and more self-assured person. .

Ok it’s clear that you have not been to a protest, and that you are very ignorant of reality, yet choose to speak on a subject that you are clueless about.

Good luck

Good Luck, yeah, we would have more luck if people would get off of their butts and help us.

 

[leftistdestroye]

DebChris;3611788]

Regardless of our views about the horror of aborticide, we are called to demonstrate Christ’s compassion, not judgment.
We are to speak the truth in love.

It is our obligation to judge when someone is about to sin. We cannot condemn them.

 

[Danny_OC]

Sigh, I imagine you’re right. Especially in those instances when they’re steps from the door. I don’t mean to say that we have to concede that we’re not going to reach everyone, but this is a supernatural fight we’re in. I never think that any of the babies lost are acceptable losses, but I do take comfort that they’re with Jesus when pro-lifers’ efforts fail. I do think that a woman who goes through this & is treated with kindness can change her mind after. Women like that become very powerful witnesses for life. The women in the Silent No More campaign are very effective. They’ve been there & aren’t afraid to speak out. I’m sure I’m kidding myself, but sometimes I think even when we lose the battle we may someday win the war. (I really don’t mean to down play the loss of individual babies here) .
Anyway, you are making me see the side of some of the people who employ these tactics. I used to think they were all just really out of touch yellers who had little effect, but some of them are staging a last-ditch desperate attempt. I get that a little better now.

I certainly agree that after the woman has made that choice, the yelling approach is not needed and in fact harmful. And I’m not saying that anything is justifiable to say to a woman as she walks into a clinic, not at all. Hateful behavior is never permissible, under ANY circumstances. Sometimes it takes being there to know if behavior is sinful hatred or righteous anger. Anyway I was happy to have this discussion with you!

 

[leftistdestroye]

kalt;3611798]

I suggested that, since some trips to abortion clinics really begin at encounters in no-tell motels, those who are concerned with the salvation of the women should be standing outside the motels screaming at the women.

I never mentioned salvation for women. I am more concerned with the slaughter of lives. Getting knocked up at a motel, does not condemn the death of a baby.

 

[leftistdestroye]

kalt;3611808]

I may be wasting my time here, but you don’t understand the posistion of the women who are getting the abortion.

The call it a parasite, because they believe that it is a paraisitc growth, not a baby.

I know that you consider it a baby,. but these women don’t.

I know that you’re not stupid, and that you can understand what they think, even if you don’t agree with them.

The goal is to get these women to understand that it is a baby.

Ignoring the reality of the social climate, and insisting that the women know that it’s a baby when they don’t, is nonsensical.

Ok, fair enough. But we can add to this then:

1. If they(women) don’t know it’s a baby then their judgment is not fit to cross the street.
2. None of this changes the fact that it is all about them. Selfish. We have had 35 years of this debate. If they do not know it by now, they choose not to.

 

[DebChris]

I certainly agree that after the woman has made that choice, the yelling approach is not needed and in fact harmful. And I’m not saying that anything is justifiable to say to a woman as she walks into a clinic, not at all. Hateful behavior is never permissible, under ANY circumstances. Sometimes it takes being there to know if behavior is sinful hatred or righteous anger. Anyway I was happy to have this discussion with you!

I wanted to thank Urban 1976 for his posting. I know the Exorcism prayer of which you speak in which we ask that God surround us with His hedge of thorns…Often at prayer meetings we will pray the same or a similar prayer.
I prefer the word empathy to pity, but the point being made is that as much as we loathe the choice these women make, God does not go against anybody’s free will. It is good, Urban, that your group has established specific rules to follow. I have friends who likewise are on the frontlines. They express the same views as you just did. The bishop himself will silently stand and pray.
As this thread has continued, I cannot help but think back to the rampant abuses of Christ’s time. Aborticide and Infanticide were both acceptable practices of the pagan Romans. It was no more right then it is now and the consequences of protesting were graver. Prayer remains by far our most powerful weapon.

 

[neat62]

I may be wasting my time here, but you don’t understand the posistion of the women who are getting the abortion.

The call it a parasite, because they believe that it is a paraisitc growth, not a baby.

I know that you consider it a baby,. but these women don’t.

I know that you’re not stupid, and that you can understand what they think, even if you don’t agree with them.

The goal is to get these women to understand that it is a baby.

Ignoring the reality of the social climate, and insisting that the women know that it’s a baby when they don’t, is nonsensical.

Oh please…talk about insulting!! You actually believe that women are that STUPID that they are incapable of realizing that the child growing within them is a baby…sigh…

Women know full well that it is a baby…otherwise, they would all just accept the fact of the pregnancy and wait to see what it was they were about to deliver!

The problem is that SOCIETY accepts BAD behavior, making all sorts of ridiculous excuses for it, such as the above.

You want to stop abortion…START expecting better of women, period!

If a woman doesn’t want to have a BABY, or is not prepared, can’t afford one, whatever…then simply they should NOT commit the act that can cause the CONSEQUENCE of pregnacy…it’s called PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY and ACCOUNTABILITY…something we are all called to exhibit!

But instead, we make lame excuses and make it easy for women to murder their own for the sake of not “inconviencing” themselves…in other words, we allow women to behave like an uncontrollable animal, NOT THINKING before they act or not…

And the Feminists will tell you we have come far… :nope:

 

[hasikelee]

You are saying that I don’t understand what you’re saying. Obviously if I don’t agree with you, I must be wrong or stupid.

Actually, I know what you are saying, and I disagree. It’s possible, you know, to know exactly what you are saying and to know that it’s wrong.

Of course anyone can think what I post here is a lie. I’ve seen other people on the Net post some “interesting” stuff. Everyone has a right to his own opinion and can make his own judgement about another’s truthfulness. I have no objection to that.

You are bothered by that fact of Internet exchange. I’m not.

You apparently don’t like this thread and feel disappointed in the way it has turned out. I don’t think it went “nowhere”. Several people have given their opinions on the subject, which is what I asked for.

You believe that I posted this thread with an agenda, so you assume that I’m disappointed that it “went nowhere.”

You think that because you want me to change my mind, that I want others to change theirs.

You also assume a load of other things about me and my position on abortion.

Quit assuming, will you? You look silly.

Pointing out that you invalidated yourself by dismissing other posters on this thread carries no assumption. You did it, not me.

It is also clear that my prior statement where I thought you considered abortion a less serious form of killing than others is correct, as found in your continuing posts where you state butcher knives are not comparable to abortive methods.

Sorry, but you can’t retract what you put down yourself. Go back and read what you posted. You put down that anonymous posters could be lying. That means you could be lying. You dismiss everyone’s post as a “wrong opinion” that means you dismissed your own posts as mere opinions.

Because you didn’t build a strong foundation of credibility or establish some form of authority before you began accusing and dismissing, you caused your own posts to be included.

Despite my asking several times why you posted, you still won’t give a clear answer.

One thing is really clear to me. I don’t have to assume anything because you keep putting it out there loud and clear.

I keep thinking hilarious is the right word here.

 

[hasikelee]

Or they just go to a different clinic.

Fortunately, we only have one clinic in our state. Although I’m sure a determined woman could easily find a private doctor who performs abortions.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

I want to ask a question to all on the side of the OP.Do you think abortion is murder?

Yes. Do you? Because, frankly, the tactics you’re promoting only hinder the cause of saving unborn children’s lives. We can work to save the lives of unborn children in two ways:

1. Fighting to make abortion illegal
2. Convince women considering an abortion not to go through with it

That kind of yelling will only make them feel intimdated and scared. Why would a woman entering an abortion clinic feel comfortable approaching a person shouting at her as if she’s a Nazi? (And don’t say that’s not what it’s like, because that analogy was made by your side of this debate.)

My girlfriend’s mother runs a crisis pregnancy center, and she talks women into letting their children be born every day she goes into work. She is firm and clear, but also compassionate. You need both. You may think you can do both while shouting like that, but you’re wrong. The women considering an abortion will feel threatened and will be turned off to the pro-life message.

A woman getting an abortion intends to murder her baby just as much as a Nazi intends to murder a Jew. The former probably doesn’t feel as good about it as the latter; but that has absolutely nothing to do with “intent.”

I didn’t say that the action she intends to commit isn’t murder. I said that she does not view her unborn child the same way a committed Nazi officer would have viewed Jews. I said she was not being deliberately malicious. I said she may be scared, ignorant, or both; thus, she is not going to be thinking, “Yes! I am SO happy that I finally get the opportunity to have my baby gruesomely murdered!”

The analogy was totally inappropriate. In fact, I’m usually furious when the pro-abortion side accuses us of wanting to toss women who have abortions into prison; I regard it as nothing more than deliberate lies and propoganda.

But if some of the views held on this thread are often expressed elsewhere as well, maybe the pro-abortion crowd really does believe that.

They already see us as the enemy, so who cares if we now make them feel afraid? And I plan on harassing them as much as I can. I don’t give a ****, they are killing innocent lives.

This post is very telling. As I said before, there are two ways we can work to save unborn lives: work to make abortion illegal, and work to convince individual women considering abortions to have their children.

Harassing women considering an abortion, making them “feel afraid” and being satisfied if they see us as “the enemy” will seriously hinder both these goals.

Do you want to save unborn lives, or do you just want to vent your anger? You can’t do both here. You must choose. If you really believe abortion is murder, you will put aside your anger, swallow your pride, and do what will actually save lives.

I completely understand the anger that you & other posters are expressing. I am against abortion in every instance. But, Goofyjim didn’t say stand across the street. He said stand across the street & PRAY THE ROSARY. This disgusts you? I think anyone who feels sickened by someone praying the rosary across the street needs to take a deep breath & spend some time in silent prayer. It has proven to be VERY effective.

Well said. I don’t know what is wrong with some of the people on this thread…

To claim that people who disagree with the tactic of screaming outside clinics are somehow less concerned about the unborn is just false. I think Father Pavone is against these tactics, & I know the people who organized the 40 Days for Life wouldn’t allow screaming. Many lives were saved by this campaign. You could hardly call them complacent or uncaring.

Exactly. I love the idiocy of the way the question, “Do you believe abortion is murder or not?” was posed to us. It’s those who prefer screaming to actually saving lives whose pro-life stance needs to be questioned.

It is BECAUSE of our concern for life that these tactics bother us. We realize it often hurts our cause. For the times that screaming has caused a woman to not get an abortion, how many more run faster into the clinic to get away from the hateful guys outside (the women see them as hateful, anyway)? How many more go to another clinic or private doctor? How many people witness this kind of treatment, & then become escorts at the clinic? I dislike this kind of treatment because it makes pro-lifers looks bad AND, more importantly, hurts our cause.

Once again, well said. Lashing out in anger doesn’t save lives; it hinders the pro-life movement in many ways.

Praying the rosary certainly does not disgust me; it is the absence of (and more severely here) the condemnation of action in the face of murder that disgusts me.

Once again, very telling that your initial reaction is that “praying the rosary” does not constitute action, while yelling does. Seriously, now: which is likely to be more powerful?

If we don’t approach this prayerfully - and that doesn’t mean “weakly” - then we will lose. Period.

What disgusts me is the notion that it is wrong for us to do anything to try to stop murder from happening because it might hurt someone’s feelings a little bit.

We don’t oppose certain tactics because they “hurt someone’s feelings.” We oppose them because - for all the reasons mmm pointed out in the above quote - they hinder our goal of saving lives. So please, if you care about unborn children, just stop.