Look at protestant churches that have embraced homosexuality. There are many Catholics that believe homosexuality is correct as witnessed on this forum and also by the fact that millions support liberal politicians.Can you and others who have made such claims be more specific as to how you reached the conclusion that “the gay lobby has recruited millions of Christian and Catholics to their cause?” Do you have any non-biased sources to back it up?
I appreciate your honesty in clearing up where you purportedly obtain your information.Look at protestant churches that have embraced homosexuality. There are many Catholics that believe homosexuality is correct as witnessed on this forum and also by the fact that millions support liberal politicians.
That is also why no scientific discovery is considered valid unless it has been replicated, and can be replicated again and again. There have been many cases were the desire to prove one’s owns theories has led to bad results. Ideally, one needs blinds and controls.And dis/proving a hypothesis is how science is done. Make a “prediction” (hypothesis) based on previously known information. Conduct experiments or analyze data. Then conclude that the results either give credence to your hypothesis or don’t support your hypothesis.
As someone who was involved in research at the university level I can state that there is a lot of competition to get research grants and most professors tenures depend on this ability so they are under a lot of pressure. As far as other non university researchers, they too are under a lot of pressure to make a profit. Therefore, it is no wonder a certain, even sizable percentage, of researcher can fall prey to interpreting results to favor their sponsor given that they have given them millions of dollars for free basically and provided them with financial security and legitimacy as a professional.That is also why no scientific discovery is considered valid unless it has been replicated, and can be replicated again and again. There have been many cases were the desire to prove one’s owns theories has led to bad results. Ideally, one needs blinds and controls.
Sometimes there’s not enough interest or money to replicate the result. (Science is expensive. Even a piece of plastic that looks like a Walmart food container costs way more than it should since it’s “used for science”. And then there are people who bemoan the fact that any money was spent on research of sexuality.)That is also why no scientific discovery is considered valid unless it has been replicated, and can be replicated again and again. There have been many cases were the desire to prove one’s owns theories has led to bad results. Ideally, one needs blinds and controls.
In seeking truth, one needs to consider the source.My post contained nothing about propagating homosexuality as normal or endorsing pro gay science. It did not mention homosexuality or gay science. Nothing in my post was about Courage. It did not mention Courage. The post was based on fact which could be gotten in several places on the internet.
I can understand your frustration when a site you dislikes prints the truth. Not one thing in what I posted is false. What confuses me is that Instead of reading it and commenting on what NARTH is all about you chose to make ad hominem attack instead. Do you believe in NARTH and wish to defend NARTH?
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[bolded my me]If science proves that there is a SSA gene, or hormone or any other physiological origin, then we as Catholics would still regard it the same way we regard persons with genetic/hormonal dispositions to overeating, alcoholism, etc. That is to say, we acknowledge that the prompt to engage in the particular behavior is not voluntary.
However, that does not the take away the individual’s responsibility to bear their cross, seek help and avoid temptations to sin. Also, of course repenting when they fall- all of us do. Even if that means 1000 times…one can’t use the excuse of having a gene to justify not having to try and avoid temptation to act on SSA, same a someone struggling with porn/masturbation. Also it does not mean that person can’t actually prompt that behavior themselves! Not everyone who acts on SSA feels it is beyond their control. This is evident in “curious” individuals who actually prefer opposite sex partners, but want to know “what it’s like”
An example of how one can prompt a behaviour is lust. Thoughts can come to our mind when we are not asking for it (ie if when in prayer) but if we watch a movie or listen to a song that purposefully incites lust, we are placing ourselves in danger by our direct action. The more obvious example would be if one daydreams and holds the lustful thoughts in their heads.
Also, it’s tricky to say God “made” someone that way. God ALLOWS us to suffer, to be under the influence of evil (lust, anger, desire to adulterate, SSA, desire to binge eat etc) and the “Scientific” and “behavioral” and “social” etc origins can be researched and explained to no end. But I believe we have to really remember that things boil down to spiritual wars as well. Not to say we should not use science to study and thus hopefully come up with useful physiological, psychological, behavioural tools, but we make the mistake of dismissing the spiritual warfare and thus the spiritual armour we need.
SSA as most have said, it not itself a sin… But acting on it, even in thought, by welcoming lustful thoughts, is considered sin. My concern with any studies that strive to prove that SSA is not the person’s fault, is they many times, reporting sources want to imply that if one is born that way and it can be proven scientifically, then God must be okay with the living out of it. Since they have that “Gene”, then they should not have to refrain from acting out because it would be way too hard. I don’t minimize this is all!! But our morals as Catholics are not based on how we feel, or how challenging certain actions are.
Also as Catholics, we believe that CHOOSING sin is choosing to walk away from God. So if someone acts out on their SSA …they can go to church and love God and pray and He surely is there and loves them…but that has nothing to do with the behavior being wrong and him being displeased about that (applicable to every sin, ie pre-marital sex OR use of contraception.). So gene or no gene…acting on anything contrary to what we are commanded/instructed to do is dangerous.
Great convo!
I totally agree. No finding of biological components to anything will be a threat to the Church. Ironically, it might end up more of a threat to the gay activist who suddenly could be seen as having a genetic defect, or homosexuality the object of genetic testing and pre-emptive abortion.But it seems if one (wrongly) perceives biological findings to be a threat to Church teachings when it doesn’t contradict the Church at all, biology/researchers will made turned into pro-gay pariahs with an “agenda”.
Then why is the cure rate by prayer so low.Romans 1. I have posted this a dozen times at least.
I have also stated more than once that children can be misled into believing they are homosexual because of sexual abuse, poor parenting or suggestion. I have also stated this more than a dozen times, good grief.
So we should only defer to professionals who agree with you because everyone else has been brainwashed by the gay agenda?From one professional to another I would prefer if you did not promote very speculative studies or questionable mechanisms as anything but. Since we are not experts in this field we should defer to professionals like Dr. Whitehead. Paz.
So, how many years of daily mass, corporal works of mercy, praying the rosary multiple times a day and Eucharistic adoration should it be cured within?Certainly people can have SSA and worse and be with God. That does not mean that is God’s will.
Why do you feel the need to tell people that their SSA is not a problem.? Do we Catholics do that with any other disordered on non correct desire? Of course not. Furthermore, when you tell others as a Christian that their SSA is innate you are using the authority as Christ’s representative to mislead this people to a life of suffering. I understand completely that you still have SSA. Nonetheless, that does not mean that it is permanent for everyone one. In fact it is not permanent for you either, and I’m sorry you can’t see that. It is also not up to you to get rid of these desires only trusting in Christ and being patient. I will tell you that forgiveness of others and complete submittal to His Will is important. While I had SSA I was relieved of it. Would the devil like to trap me again? Of course. However, I have faith of what God has made in me and this has severly defeated the devil’s plan to confuse me. I still struggle with normal but still very serious sins such as lust. However, I will not make excuses for it and will be patient that He will heal me in time.
The English version isn’t the authoritative version, it also sometimes has technically correct, but wrong in modern English usage such as using the original use of disinterested which is almost entirely out of use.Psychological genesis mean origin, no reinterpretations of English needed.
Homosexuality wasn’t deliberately included in the DSM I, it was a carry over from a prior work which had it as a carry over from a prior work which had it as a carry over from a prior work which had it because of bad Freudian psychology and American puritan morality. The removal was more scientific than the inclusion which wasn’t that hard.The problem is the bulk of mental health professionals are held by and beholden to APA which is vested in expressed homosexuality. Ever since homosexuality was removed as a disorder in the DSM (by political pressure), there has not been any bias free and balanced investigation of the etiology of same sex attraction and management / treatment modalities for unwanted SSA. The APA has already dictated that homosexuality is not changeable and attempts to change is commonly and inherently harmful. Would any practicing mental health professional under APA risk doing or saying anything openly that is a departure from the official line?
You mentioned Jones and Yarhouse, focusing on the failures of sexual orientation change therapy, ignoring that their study do not prove that categorical change in sexual orientation is possible for everyone or anyone, but rather that meaningful shifts along a continuum that constitute real changes appear possible for some. They also noted that attempts to change do not appear to be harmful on average or inherently harmful. There is some capacity for some people to shift their sexual orientation in a way that has personal meaning to them.
Given a culture surrounding a same sex attracted person with suggestions and prompts right and left to go ahead and act on his or her homosexual inclination, a gay affirming APA, gay themed tv programs, a current President joining in, with public congratulations to sports figures who come out, etc., is it a wonder that failure in changing homosexual behavior and orientation is high?
Ask yourself if you are letting yourself swept away by the culture too. You seem to discount prayer and change therapy as helpful aids to struggling homosexuals. Indeed, there are lots of naysayers who come onto this site, even Catholics, who badmouth the good work of the few who remain standing, counter cultural if you will, like Dr. Rick Fitzgibbons, Dr. Nicolosi and company, the Courage apostolate, Catholic Therapists, JONAH, mormonandgays.org, and other organizations in this list.
George Bernard Shaw:
*People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.
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I don’t agree that a person with same sex attraction need to avoid close friendships with members of his / her sex.
There is nothing wrong unless the same sex friend is also a sexual and romantic partner.
By all means, keep and enjoy your friend or friends. Who would begrudge you this?
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I think failing to admit to your future spouse that you aren’t attracted to them is a sin of omission as it can have serious affects on the health of the marriage.Without doubt, honesty is always essential. However, this lie you describe is not limited to homosexuality. Many married people struggle attraction to another woman, or other women, pornography, some immoral sexual practice, some immoral and illegal sexual practice… Yes, honesty with the spouse remains essential.
The Latin version is the authoritative one and in that version it means it is of the mind which is not the as induced after birth.Homosexuality’s origin as psychological is clear in the catechism.
But just in case to leave no doubt to the contributors here the Spanish version clearly says “psychological origin”.
“Su origen psíquico permanece en gran medida inexplicado.”
vatican.va/archive/catechism_sp/p3s2c2a6_sp.html
With all due respect it is pure conjecture that they have isolated any genes that can cause a person to sin. Preliminary and suggestive studies are not definitive and should not be assumed to as such.If science proves that there is a SSA gene, or hormone or any other physiological origin, then we as Catholics would still regard it the same way we regard persons with genetic/hormonal dispositions to overeating, alcoholism, etc.
This has been happening for many years, since the 70’s actually. In fact this is a large reason why so many protestant religions have embraced homosexuality and why many Catholics have done so as well. Furthermore, teaching that homosexuality was created by God plants a seed of doubt as it is illogical to say the least and can cause a person’s faith to fail. After all we are logical beings. Therefore, instead of acquiescing to pseudo research we should be err on the side of caution and look to Church doctrine and the Bible direction. Paz.My concern with any studies that strive to prove that SSA is not the person’s fault, is they many times, reporting sources want to imply that if one is born that way and it can be proven scientifically, then God must be okay with the living out of it. Since they have that “Gene”, then they should not have to refrain from acting out because it would be way too hard. I don’t minimize this is all!! But our morals as Catholics are not based on how we feel, or how challenging certain actions are.
Inclination towards a certain type of sin is not sin.With all due respect it is pure conjecture that they have isolated any genes that can cause a person to sin. Preliminary and suggestive studies are not definitive and should not be assumed to as such.
This has been happening for many years, since the 70’s actually. In fact this is a large reason why so many protestant religions have embraced homosexuality and why many Catholics have done so as well. Furthermore, teaching that homosexuality was created by God plants a seed of doubt as it is illogical to say the least and can cause a person’s faith to fail. After all we are logical beings. Therefore, instead of acquiescing to pseudo research we should be err on the side of caution and look to Church doctrine and the Bible direction. Paz.
Your concern is realistic, I agree some, perhaps many, would like to believe that God is ok with the behavior. There are others like myself that are motivated to learn about SSA origin due to discrimination and the many religious people who view SSA and homosexuality acting out as one and the same. Granted today there is more knowledge yet many continue to perpetrate the ignorance, perhaps unconsciously, by their actions. Not only on this thread but many others also, people with SSA have been encouraged to seek out a discredited therapy to “cure” their SSA. What is not well understood is that when there is no choice there is nothing to cure. To encourage people they should go for the (imaginary) cure is tantamount to telling them that SSA and acting out are the same. When I bring this out I often receive ad hominem arguments about gay agendas and anti-church messengers.SSA as most have said, it not itself a sin… But acting on it, even in thought, by welcoming lustful thoughts, is considered sin. My concern with any studies that strive to prove that SSA is not the person’s fault, is they many times, reporting sources want to imply that if one is born that way and it can be proven scientifically, then God must be okay with the living out of it. Since they have that “Gene”, then they should not have to refrain from acting out because it would be way too hard. I don’t minimize this is all!! But our morals as Catholics are not based on how we feel, or how challenging certain actions are.
Great convo!
No one here is claiming God can’t “fix” them, what people are saying is that it is a cross to bear, that suffering has a redemptive power and that God doesn’t not that he can’t.Plenty of people are cured of SSA by Christ Himself all the time, but the gay lobby and the MSM doesn’t want anyone to known this.
Furthermore, those with an attitude that SSA was created by God and or being homosexual “has it’s advantages” are shooting themselves in the foot from being healed. After all, there can be no healing without recognizing that we have a problem.
Finally, while it may be true that some treatment programs have failed it is false conclusion to believe Christ cannot heal this condition. What is no doubt happening is that the person who is treated is being swayed by our miserable culture that classifies him/her as a homosexual 24/7 and cause their faith to be weak. I have experienced this myself. We as a society are sick and until we recognize that every boy or girl that does not fit our definitions of masculinity/femininity must be by inference homosexual we will continue to make it difficult for people to be healed.
God doesn’t always remove that which burdens us. Again we can look to St. Paul.No one here is claiming God can’t “fix” them, what people are saying is that it is a cross to bear, that suffering has a redemptive power and that God doesn’t not that he can’t.
That was kind of the point of what I said.God doesn’t always remove that which burdens us. Again we can look to St. Paul.
And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.