Best verse defending Purgatory! Matthew 5:21-26

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AugustTherese said:
Then, why does anyone suffer, especially Christians?
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That is a great question. You are asking for a theophany which I don’t think any man can give, so I won’t speak for God on that one. I can point to scripture which says that we suffer because sin still exists in the world, this suffering being the result of sin. With regard to specifically why Christians suffer, Jesus seems to indicate that we suffer because the world in its sinful state hates Christ, and as followers of Christ we can only expect to receive that same hatred. And, Peter seems to indicate that our suffering often provides great witness to disbelievers who see the paradox between believers who live according to their faith, and the unjust and undeserved persecution that they endure. That’s the best I can offer.
 
AugustTherese said:
If Christ bore the penalty for our sin, then why do we still suffer? Merely answering by stating it is a paradox will not suffice.
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You are making a category error. The fact that sin still exists means that the sinful world is frequently unjust, hence even the righteous suffer. And you are also failing to make a distinction between the temporal realm which is still under sin, and the reality in the resurrection. I highly recommend you look up the idea of the two kingdoms to make sense of your question.
 
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Some people simply like to argue. One should have a foundation slightly more firm than the sand of personal opinion when engaging in such activities.
 
Completely agree, that is why we were examining scripture to determine if the sand you speak of stands before the flood.
 
Sean77 said:
And you are also failing to make a distinction between the temporal realm which is still under sin, and the reality in the resurrection.
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Temporal realm still under sin? Sounds like you’re treading on the Church’s teaching on temporal punishments, of which still need to be satisfied after death.
 
Sean77 said:
Again, the context of the mercy that Paul is speaking of is within the passage of Ephesians 2 itself. If you are bringing an outside definition of mercy, you are reading into the text something that Paul is not communicating.
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I wasn’t making a response to the passage in question, that’s why I didn’t quote it. I was making a response to your comment about purgation could not be God’s mercy.

If you want to respond to my comment in that context we can discuss it.
Sean77 said:
Going back to the text, Paul is saying that we have already been raised to life with Christ and seated in the heavenly places with Christ…
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And like I said about the other verse you quoted St. Paul is speaking of Baptism here. We were raised up when we were baptized.

Once again you are reading to much into the verse. Even though you quoted the rest of the verse you still ignore it…
Sean77 said:
so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
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This says HE MIGHT, this is not a guarantee. Shouldn’t St. Paul have said He will or He already did. If the action is in the past and complete why do we have to wait for the coming ages.
Sean77 said:
The last comment you make about justice is irrelevant. You are speaking of discipline in the temporal realm, not judgment after death.
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Which is what purgatory is. Purgatory isn’t about a second chance at judgement. Only the saved get this blessing of being purged of all temporal punishments for sin. Like I said earlier the only reason you object is because you don’t understand the teaching.

It’s pretty simple Sean, at this very time in your life do you have an attachment to any sins?

If yes what would happen to you if you were to die at this very moment? Since the Bible tells us no sin or attachment to sin can enter heaven?

God Bless
 
AugustTherese said:
Temporal realm still under sin? Sounds like you’re treading on the Church’s teaching on temporal punishments, of which still need to be satisfied after death.
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No, they are quite different. Before making that assumption, I would actually encourage you to read up on the subject.
 
Sean77 said:
Therefore, the work of the apostles will be tested (the work itself) to see which built properly upon the foundation of Christ.
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Why on earth or in heaven would the works of the Apostles be tested?

Jesus gave the Apostles the promise of the Holy Spirit. Jesus told the Apostles they had the authority to bind and loose. Jesus told the Apostles who hears you hears me.

How could An Apostle build improperly on the foundation of Christ?

That would be like saying The Holy Spirit dropped the ball or Jesus was joking when He said who hears you hears me.

You can’t honestly expect us to accept that interpretation?
 
MT1926 said:
Why on earth or in heaven would the works of the Apostles be tested?
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I am not sure I understand your question. I would take it up with Paul who stated that their work would be tested.

Follow Paul’s argument from Chapter 1 to Chapter 3, where the verses in question are located. If you read the paragraph preceding Paul is speaking about the different works that each of the teachers initially mentioned in Chapter one are doing in planting the church in Corinth. Paul planted, Apollos watered, and though their jobs are different they will each receive the wages for their labor.

Paul then switches metaphors to building. Paul laid the foundation, someone else is building upon it. Let each one (referring to the workers who are tending the Church of Corinth, take care on how they build upon that foundation. Why? Because their work will be made manifest (manifest meaning apparent to all). As he says, fire (typically used as a metaphor for testing or persecution - it could mean either) will reveal the quality of their work. You are saying that this reference to fire is purgatory or punishment of sins. Paul is saying something quite different, that the fire is being used to show the quality of the work.

The paragraph after continues along the construction theme showing that the church in Corinth is being built into God’s temple, and he issues a warning against the contentious brothers within the church that would do something to destroy the temple. He then points them to be humble workers as Paul, Apollos, and Peter are.

I would highly recommend you in your studies to carefully follow the flow of the discussion when evaluating a proof text, examining the passages before and after.
 
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The killer verse for defending purgatory is Matthew 16:18.

All derives from that.
 
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Well if your seeking Gods truth with all your heart and willing to be lead by Christ anywhere that leads, He will show you the truth.

I myself never thought in a million years I’d be Catholic, but yet here I am. Be open to God, and he will lead you brother. 🙂

You are here for a reason, lead by the Holy Spirit.
 
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Scripture has been turned into a joke.

Really.

Are you a JW?

They were founded on the exact same bible and you have zero authority to claim that they are wrong. You can only disagree. And disagree. And disagree. Truth is not served, but argumentation certainly is. They are just as likely right as you are.

The LDS was founded on the same scripture and you cannot refute Mormonism using the bible.

You think they are wrong. They think you are wrong.

Problem.
 
Which interpretation is it Sean?

First you said"…
Sean77 said:
Therefore, the work of the apostles will be tested (the work itself) to see which built properly upon the foundation of Christ. And the work of each one will be manifest (the nature of the Church itself being their witness).
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Now you are saying…
Sean77 said:
Paul laid the foundation, someone else is building upon it. Let each one (referring to the workers who are tending the Church of Corinth, take care on how they build upon that foundation. Why? Because their work will be made manifest (manifest meaning apparent to all)
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Who is being tested? I responded to your claim that it was Only the Apostles building of the Church being tested. I show you your error and now you say it’s the Christians building the Church being tested.

Well aren’t we still building up the Church? Wouldn’t we also be included in this testing?
Sean77 said:
I would highly recommend you in your studies to carefully follow the flow of the discussion when evaluating a proof text, examining the passages before and after.
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Once again you are accusing me of something I never did. I never proof texted this verse I simply pointed out your illogical conclusion that St. Paul was talking about the Apostles works building on the foundation being tested. The fact that you changed your interpretation is proof positive.

Like I said in my first post, I don’t need to proof text scripture. It’s common sense, which like a sinless nature few of us have these days. The majority of us have a sinful nature and will continue to sin til the day we die. That sinful nature cannot enter heaven. If it isn’t purged in this life then it has to be purged in the next.

Think and pray about this first and then go back and answer the questions above.

God Bless
 
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EvangelistVictor said:
25 Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are on the way to court with him, or your accuser may hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny .

The judge here is God the Father. The guard could be Jesus or the Angels. Prison is purgatory. Its not hell, because after you’ve paid the last penny or purging and purifying of your sins, your released, and can enter into heaven. In hell, there’s no release, but eternal damnation in the inferno.
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I do wonder if this would be a valid reading in a Protestant’s eyes. I’ve only recently been convinced of the Catholic Church’s validity and authority, and I’m not yet able to enter RCIA. In any case, the (unfortunately) still-present Protestant in me might respond that this doesn’t imply Purgatory, but that Jesus was stressing the importance of living well and living the Christian life while still here on earth, because after death, you are either damned or saved. The Protestant—or at least Baptist, as this is the denomination I have most experience with—way of thinking is that there will be no opportunity to pay every last penny
 
StephenBales said:
still-present Protestant in me might respond that this doesn’t imply Purgatory
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Remember, Protestants will 100% deny purgatory, so in their minds, no scripture proves it, even when shown the evidence of it like in this verse.

What prison is Jesus talking about if its not purgatory? The only logical sence for prison is purgatory, because you can get out and later be free. Also, in prison, your behind bars, and cannot work. How you suppose to pay back what you owe, unless its a purging of venial sins committed. After those venial sins are burned away by fire, the debt is paid and your free to enter holy heaven where no unclean thing can enter.
 
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Oh precisely, I agree. I’ve come around to pretty much all the Catholic opinions over my formerly Protestant convictions, I’m with you. I’m just trying to imagine how a Protestant might respond
 
Please get a Catholic bible if you do not have one. Read 2 Maccabees 12:45 and following regarding prayer for the dead who died under godly circumstances, but with sin on their souls. A collection was taken up and prayers for them were offered in the temple - that they might be loosed from their sins - after death.

1 Corinthians 3:10-14 states clearly that a man’s work will be tested on that day. Even if his work is tested and burns in the fire, he will be saved, but only as though passing through fire.

Let’s review:
  1. After death.
  2. Before heaven.
  3. Works will be judged.
  4. The works may stand or burn.
  5. Yet he will ultimately be saved.
  6. But only as if passing through fire.
  7. God’s fire refines, purifies, purges impurities.
Hmmm…
 
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