Best verse defending Purgatory! Matthew 5:21-26

[kkerwin1]

I’ve experienced some success in apologetics with a simple “common sense” approach without relying on Bible verses.

1. Ask the question, “Are we now the way that we will be in heaven?”.
2. Most people will respond “No”.
3. Ask the question, “So, you believe that there is a change between how we are now, and how we will be in heaven?”.
4. Most people will realize that, if they stick to their earlier answer, they have to accept that there is a change.
5. Point out that this “change” is Purgatory.

The above five steps cause cognitive dissonance:

https://www.simplypsychology.org/cognitive-dissonance.html

The dissonance prepares their mind to learn by causing intellectual discomfort. It shows them that there is a problem in their understanding of Purgatory. Without having a problem, they will not see a need for a solution. Once you have prepared their mind to learn in this way, then you can start with Scripture.

 

[po18guy]

Add to all of this:

Revelation 21:27
But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination
or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

This puts the lie to the reformers’ idea of “snow covered dung hills” entering - simply nonsensical.

So just how, inquiring minds want to know, are we purified for entry?

 

[AugustTherese]

‘Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which on the outside look beautiful, but inside they are full of the bones of the dead and of all kinds of filth. So you also on the outside look righteous to others, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.”
Matthew 23:27-28

I’m wondering what’s the difference between whitewashed tombs and “snow-covered dung hills”.

 

[po18guy]

‘Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which on the outside look beautiful, but inside they are full of the bones of the dead and of all kinds of filth. So you also on the outside look righteous to others, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.”
Matthew 23:27-28

I’m wondering what’s the difference between whitewashed tombs and “snow-covered dung hills”.

Perfect comparison and connection!

 

[Sean77]

Not sure who or what you were responding to. It obviously did not pertain to anything I had posted either here or any other thread.

 

[po18guy]

I was addressing those who are not spouting off personal opinion.

Sorry for any offense.

 

[Sean77]

Now you are saying…

If you go back to the original quote, I was posting the passage that you were referencing. So you are arguing with Paul, not myself.

Who is being tested? I responded to your claim that it was Only the Apostles building of the Church being tested. I show you your error and now you say it’s the Christians building the Church being tested.

If you took it that I limited this passage to the apostles, you mistook my explanation. This passage applies to the apostles, elders, etc., that are preaching and teaching, specifically in the Corinthian church, but can be extended to all those who are called to preach, teach, and evangelize.

Well aren’t we still building up the Church? Wouldn’t we also be included in this testing?

Of course. That is why the passage is still relevant today. However, it still is not discussing the concept of purgatory which was the topic you were initially discussing.

 

[Sean77]

I was addressing those who are not spouting off personal opinion.

Sorry for any offense.

No worries. I have big shoulders.

 

[Sean77]

Add to all of this:

Revelation 21:27
But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination
or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

The problem with this line of thinking is that you are assuming that it is your righteousness which is making you clean. When you read through Romans, you will see that it is the righteousness of Christ imputed to us that makes us clean. Check out 2 Corinthians 5:21 as well.

 

[po18guy]

Step outside of Romans - even if just while holding your breath!

James the Less, one of the 12 chosen, teaches that the prayer of a righteous man avails much (5:16).

Your spiritual forebear, Philipp Melanchthon, wrote an apologia harmonizing James with the Pauline Epistles - therefore you should not have a problem with the concept.

If there were righteous before Christ, are you claiming that there are now none - even with the explicit forgiveness of sin?

p.s. funny how the Pope cannot be infallible, but you can. In your shoes, I would ponder that.

 

[AugustTherese]

When you read through Romans, you will see that it is the righteousness of Christ imputed to us that makes us clean

‘But the Lord said to Samuel, ‘Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him; for the Lord does not see as mortals see; they look on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.’
1 Samuel 16:7

The Pharisees were labeled hypocrites by Our Lord for being imputed with a seeming external righteousness but remaining unjustified interiorly. ‘Imputation’ empties the Cross of its transformative power and makes God out to be a liar.

 

[Sean77]

The fact of the matter is that there are certain passages that you go to because they speak directly to the heart of a specific matter. So for example, when I want to enumerate the Ten Commandments, I don’t jump to Psalm 150, I go to Exodus 20. When I want to discuss the divinity of Christ, I go directly to those passages first that speak directly and clearly to that topic. When we are discussing the means by which we are justified we go to Romans, and often Ephesians, because they directly address by what means that we are made righteous in Christ. I have no issues “stepping outside” those books. However, when I do so, I look at them through the lens of the clear passages of scripture which directly speak to that issue.

p.s. funny how the Pope cannot be infallible, but you can. In your shoes, I would ponder that.

I do not and have not claimed infallibility. I don’t need to. The Holy Spirit has gifted us with the scripture, and in this matter, it speaks very clearly. I would commence to reading Romans and Ephesians, which speak directly to the subject of justification, and ponder that in your shoes.

 

[Sean77]

The Pharisees were labeled hypocrites by Our Lord for being imputed with a seeming external righteousness but remaining unjustified interiorly. ‘Imputation’ empties the Cross of its transformative power and makes God out to be a liar.

I have no idea where you are pulling that idea from. It certainly isn’t scripture. You will have to do a much more convincing job showing through exegesis of the passages relevant to the Pharisees, why you think this is the case.

 

[po18guy]

Re-read your own words! So, the Holy Spirit guides you, but no one else? Surreal, bro’!

You can deny it, but you are claiming infallibility. You pretend to teach 1.2 billion of the faithful, without error.

That is the Pope.

The fruits of the “reformation” are division, arrogance, conceit, egotism and the ultimate destruction of unity in the Body of Christ.

That from the Holy Spirit too?

“By their fruits you shall know them.”

Too bad Paul didn’t write that.

 

[MT1926]

If you go back to the original quote, I was posting the passage that you were referencing. So you are arguing with Paul, not myself.

Sean you make me laugh. Are you actually claiming here that you have the infallible interpretation of what this verse means? Give me one reason why I should believe that your interpretation (instead of the way it’s been interpreted for 2000 years) is what St. Paul meant here?

Of course. That is why the passage is still relevant today. However, it still is not discussing the concept of purgatory which was the topic you were initially discussing.

Nope the concept I was initially discussing was your claim that purging us of our attachment to sin could not be a part of God’s Mercy.

We can drop it since you obviously don’t want to talk about something you don’t have an answer for. In fear that it will knock out the ladder beneath everything you believe.

Maybe you can answer an easier question.

How exactly does a work get tested in the fire without the person, who did the work, themselves being tested at the exact same time?

God Bless

 

[MT1926]

I would commence to reading Romans and Ephesians, which speak directly to the subject of justification, and ponder that in your shoes.

Are you seriously implying no Catholic has read Romans or Ephesians in 2000 years.

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stpaulcenter.com

If you have time how about giving this a listen and tell me where Dr. Hahn, Dr. Bergsma and Dr. Pitre got it wrong.

If you aren’t willing to admit that there is chance that they might be right then you are claiming infallibility.

 

[AugustTherese]

I have no idea where you are pulling that idea from. It certainly isn’t scripture. You will have to do a much more convincing job showing through exegesis of the passages relevant to the Pharisees, why you think this is the case.

The 16th-century man-made doctrine of ‘imputation’ promulgates the ideology that, in the realm of justification before God, man solely gets credited with the righteousness of Christ while in reality he remains a depraved sinner, hence Luther’s analogy of man being compared to a snow-covered dung hill; the snow representing the righteousness of Christ while the dung represented man in his current state of depravity. Therefore, God only sees the righteousness of Christ while pretending to neglect the reality of the depraved sinner.

This ‘imputation’ doctrine is analogous to what the Pharisees practiced during the life of Christ. The Pharisees displayed external acts and appearances of righteousness, i.e. fasting to be seen, praying to be seen, tithing to be seen etc. If God is only concerned with external appearances (the righteousness of Christ covering us) and not the interior disposition and qualities (the righteousness of Christ infused into us, transforming us), then the Pharisees could claim the exact same type of imputation doctrine that Christ condemned, calling them ‘whitewashed tombs’ because they are internally filthy and unjust in their heart.

 

[Sean77]

Re-read your own words! So, the Holy Spirit guides you, but no one else? Surreal, bro’!

You can deny it, but you are claiming infallibility. You pretend to teach 1.2 billion of the faithful, without error.

Quote me where I said I am infallible. Also, I believe that language means something. So when Paul says that I was dead in my trespasses and sins, but am now made alive together in Christ, and raised with him and seated in the heavenly places with him (all of which being in the past tense), I accept his clear meaning. This isn’t some mystical coded language. I just accept it on faith.

 

[AugustTherese]

The Holy Spirit has gifted us with the scripture, and in this matter, it speaks very clearly. I would commence to reading Romans and Ephesians, which speak directly to the subject of justification, and ponder that in your shoes.

Saint Paul’s epistles do not speak ‘very clearly’. Both Saint Peter and Saint Augustine had troubles understanding everything in them.

You claim Scripture speaks very clearly. Scripture alone clearly disagrees with you:

“So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.” 2 Peter 3:16

 

[Sean77]

The 16th-century man-made doctrine of ‘imputation’ promulgates the ideology that, in the realm of justification before God, man solely gets credited with the righteousness of Christ while in reality he remains a depraved sinner, hence Luther’s analogy of man being compared to a snow-covered dung hill;

It is a first century doctrine as evidenced by Paul. For there is no distinction

This ‘imputation’ doctrine is analogous to what the Pharisees practiced during the life of Christ.

You are completely mistaken in your characterization of the Pharisees. The Pharisees taught that we are justified by observing the Torah, in contrast to the Sadducees who emphasized the sacrificial system of the temple. The problem with the Pharisees, and the reason why Jesus called them hypocrites, is that in order to be able to claim that they were followers of the law, they created loopholes to claim righteousness. In the sermon on the mount, Jesus addresses these teachings demonstrating the hypocritical nature of the Pharisees. They said, you are righteous before the law so long as you don’t act out the physical act of adultery. Jesus had to correct that and show that coveting or lust for a woman that is not your wife makes one just a guilty before the law. They said, as long as you don’t kill your brother, you are righteous. Jesus said that if you even insult or curse your brother in your heart, you have already committed murder against him in your heart and are guilty before the law. They said you can give the support for your parents to the temple as Corban, but Jesus said that by doing so you were not honoring your father and your mother. Jesus actually upheld the sacrificial system for the reason that he was going to be the fulfillment of it, the Lamb of God that takes AWAY the sin of the world. Your characterization of the Pharisees is again putting the cart before the horse and flipping the message of Christ on its head.