Best verse defending Purgatory! Matthew 5:21-26

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Sean77 said:
they created loopholes to claim righteousness
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And, this is exactly what Protestant doctrine does! Protestants claim to be just when they are not just; or, they claim, simultaneously of being both a sinner and not a sinner under the pretext of a credited righteousness that exists outside of them. Taking Saint Paul out of his Apostolic context and suggesting that Christ’s righteousness is solely imputed to us, and not infused, blasphemes the Incarnation and the radical union us Christians have with Christ in mind, body, and soul.
 
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Mr. Sean77, how you come to faith in Jesus Christ being God?
 
AugustTherese said:
And, this is exactly what Protestant doctrine does!
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This is completely fallacious and demonstrates your ignorance of our doctrine. Our doctrine demonstrates that we are breakers of the law and that God is just in his judgment of us, and that we are all condemned under the law. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift (note that it is not earned), through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation (note that Christ is the propitiation, which means the satisfaction of the just punishment of our sins) by his blood, to be received by faith. After showing how we receive grace through faith, Paul continues, Since therefore we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. He then states that we are already reconciled with God.

The doctrine of purgatory assumes that we aren’t reconciled with God and that Christ’s sacrifice did not in fact offer the propitiation for our sins, but that we must do so through our works.

Paul even shows how he himself still struggles with sin after he is saved, but is in the continual process of sanctification. However, even then it is still Christ who has justified us. As he says, Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect (not that in God’s grace our slate is clean, we will see in a moment why)? It is God who justifies (not our actions). Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died - more than that, who was raised - who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Paul is saying quite explicitly the debt is paid. Glory to Him!

Now, that being said, the next unfounded allegation you will make is that we don’t believe in works. That would also be wrong. As Paul says, that we were created in Christ Jesus FOR good works, which he had prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Again, we are saved by faith through grace by Christ, so that we can live out our original purpose.
 
Are you attempting to engage in a non sequitur in order to deflect from positively atrocious exegesis of the text?
 
Sean77 said:
The doctrine of purgatory assumes that we aren’t reconciled with God and that Christ’s sacrifice did not in fact offer the propitiation for our sins, but that we must do so through our works.
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Where did you get this from?
 
You tell me. Offer a consistent explanation for how one’s sin is atoned for yet still needs to be paid for. This is the other issue with the whole concept of purgatory which is self-contradictory.
 
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Sean77 said:
It is God who justifies (not our actions)
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Scripture alone:

For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
Romans 2:13

for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.’
Matthew 12:37

You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
James 2:22,24
 
Sean77 said:
You tell me. Offer a consistent explanation for how one’s sin is atoned for yet still needs to be paid for. This is the other issue with the whole concept of purgatory which is self-contradictory.
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I can try, but in order to do this I would need to know how you believe Jesus’ atonement is applied to us?

Is it one and done?

Do we need to do anything before it’s applied?

When is it applied?

Can we keep repeating the same sins over and over without either losing the first application or needing further applications?

Thanks
 
Sean77 said:
Offer a consistent explanation for how one’s sin is atoned for yet still needs to be paid for.
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Christ’s sacrifice redeemed mankind. Christ’s death and resurrection made satisfaction for Divine Justice in the eternal realm.

However, the fruits of redemption need to be applied to the individual. This application involves suffering through sanctification, i.e. being made holy (cf. Romans 5:3-5).

When an individual is forgiven his guilt of eternal debt, he still needs to make satisfaction for his temporal punishment. That is why you suffer in this life! When you sin and are forgiven, you are remitted of the eternal debt that Christ made satisfaction by his Sacrifice. However, you still need to make amends for sinning against God’s order of justice. You receive suffering in this life due to your sins, i.e. temporal punishment. If you have not made satisfaction for temporal punishment in this life, you are purged through suffering in the age to come, thus purifying you and satisfying the demands of justice.
 
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Purgatory is also part of Judaism. We too pray for the dead. Case closed LOL.
 
Actions speak louder than quotes.

You claim that the Catholic Church is wrong and that you and your twist on the scriptures is right. Well, 29,999 of your bible brothers say that you are wrong. Your cred is gone, bro’

Christ said nothing about the “New Testament” except using that name for the Holy Eucharist - which you reject. Christ founded a Church and promised that the gates of hell would not prevail.

You say they have.

Tell us how this does not make Christ a fake or a liar.
 
Be careful here. Judaism is an orthoprax religion more than an orthodox one, to be sure. That is, behavior trumps internal thoughts and feelings. However, the intention of one’s behavior is equally important so that if one practices the Law without sincerity but just going through the motions to achieve a reward, this is not justification because the Law is not being observed in its essence. This is all basic to the Pharisaic tradition of Judaism on which Orthodox Judaism of the present is founded. Those Pharisees whom Jesus reprimanded were the Pharisees who, in their hypocrisy, were not following the intention or spirit of the Law, which is its very essence.
 
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I am still waiting for an explanation of the doctrine of purgatory that is proven from scripture rather than assumed. Again, were you going to exegete the passage under discussion, or not?
 
po18guy said:
You claim that the Catholic Church is wrong and that you and your twist on the scriptures is right. Well, 29,999 of your bible brothers say that you are wrong. Your cred is gone, bro’

Christ said nothing about the “New Testament” except using that name for the Holy Eucharist - which you reject. Christ founded a Church and promised that the gates of hell would not prevail.

You say they have.

Tell us how this does not make Christ a fake or a liar.
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My cred is gone bro? I am not the person who just made a completely fallacious accusation without any evidence. Read the 8th Commandment much? Bro?

Again, a claim was made the 1 Corinthians 3 promotes the doctrine of purgatory. I demonstrated through clear exegesis of the text that the doctrine is not about the purgation of unatoned sin, but about the reward (or lack thereof) due to those who are called to preach and teach within the church. I have not seen any attempt on your part to demonstrate through the text that Paul was speaking otherwise. Bro.
 
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You do not follow even the biblical teaching of Christ! He taught that you would listen to Apostles - not that you would read a Catholic collection of books and then attack other Christians out of a state of confusion. He did not leave us orphans. We’ve given you the verses!

And despite your seeming confidence, you are indeed confused. Please make no mistake about that. If you believe in heaven, you should desire heaven. Since you cannot stand in God’s presence and live, just how is it that you are magically cleaned up to sit at the heavenly banquet?

Remember that nothing impure enters the Kingdom.

How?

Magic is not a Christian belief.

How are you cleaned up?

You cannot find it if you are not looking for it.

You are arguing and not looking.
 
Posting this argument to assume the Luther maintained his belief in the concept of purgatory shows ignorance of Luther. Yes. Luther was a good Catholic monk and priest. He believed in the doctrines and traditions of the church. In 1517 Luther believed in purgatory. However, it was his study of the scriptures as a doctor and professor of theology that caused him to begin the systematic study of scripture. This led to his outcry against the abuse of indulgences. And as his statements against the abuses of indulgences began to draw the ire of the papal authorities, Luther continued in his studies of the scriptures. His defenses of justification by faith at the Heidelburg disputation and beyond caused Luther to reject the concept of purgatory as unscriptural. By about 1521 Luther calls the concept of purgatory a “fabrication of the devil.” What is shocking is the poor scholarship frequently passed off as apologetics on this site.
 
Well, believing or not in purgatory won’t keep you out of heaven, but denying Jesus Christ as God will.

Do you believe in Jesus Christ as God and if so, have you been water baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and received the Holy Spirit?

Matthew 3:5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
 
Of course I believe in the Trinity (I assume that is where you were going with your question). And yes, I have been baptized in the name of the Triune God.

Coincidentally, I do not particularly care for calling baptism “water baptism” as I feel it confuses doctrine. Just my opinion there, so take it with a grain of salt.
 
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