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Cat_Herder
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But the number of Christians who accepted a pretribulation rapture, which has NOTHING to do with a/pre/post-millennial orientation, was ZERO until the nineteenth century.
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Cat_Herder
Guest
In that post you said “Israel” was the house of Jacob. Now you say not all descendants of Jacob belong to Jacob’s house. Which is it?
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moondweller
Guest
Do you not know that “Jacob” is “Israel?”
Your dodging around the facts won’t change them.
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Cat_Herder
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I am asking YOU to define what “Israel” means in Luke 1 and Romans 11. You gave a definition and then contradicted it. Who is dodging?
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moondweller
Guest
A pre-Trib. rapture has everything to do with a premillennial understanding of the prophetic Scriptures. You really need to study those Scriptures, Cat. Get yourself familiar with them.
That a doctrine is not developed by men doesn’t mean that the truth of it isn’t revealed right there in the Scriptures (ex. the Trinity). Based on a literal delineation of the O.T. prophetic Scriptures the pre-Trib. rapture is a natural/logical conclusion. IOW, let those prophecies speak for themselves and what you have is God’s promises for national Israel, not the church. Don’t spiritualize/allegorize them to conform to your own preconceived ideas (or rather those of your magisterium - teaching authority).
In reality, there is no absolute interpretation of the prophetic Scriptures when men use the allegorical method of interpretation. With such a hermeneutic you can have as many interpretations as you have interpreters. But what your magisterium does is claim infallibility, hence, their claim to unique authority. You accept their (allegorical) interpretation because you accept their claim to infallibility. But that still doesn’t change the Scriptures literally say/reveal regarding God’s revealed program for national Israel and the coming Davidic Kingdom.Jer 33:19-26 “*The word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying, Thus says the LORD, 'If you can break My covenant for the day and My covenant for the night, so that day and night will not be at their appointed time, then My covenant may also be broken with David My servant so that he will not have a son to reign on his throne, and with the Levitical priests, My ministers. ‘As the host of heaven cannot be counted and the sand of the sea cannot be measured, so I will multiply the descendants of David My servant and the Levites who minister to Me.’”
"And the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying, "**Have you not observed what this people have spoken, saying, ‘The two families which the LORD chose, He has rejected them’? *Thus they despise My people, no longer are they as a nation in their sight. Thus says the LORD, 'If My covenant {for} day and night {stand} not, {and} the fixed patterns of heaven and earth I have not established, then I would reject the descendants of Jacob and David My servant, not taking from his descendants rulers over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. But I will restore their fortunes and will have mercy on them.’"Cat, can you break God’s covenant for day and night’s appointed times? Can any man? Of course not. Hence, nor can you (nor will He) break His covenant promises with the nation of Israel. And those covenant and prophetic promises belong to national Israel, not the church. He has an entirely different program for Christ’s church, and it includes being caught up to meet her Lord in the air at the appointed time - as explicitly revealed in the Scriptures.
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Cat_Herder
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The number of pre-trib rapturists for the first 1800+ years of the church is zero and no amount of hand waiving is going to fool us into thinking that the chilialists were pre-trib rapturists.
Oh, but there is plenty of Scripture YOU interpret as allegorical…
[BIBLEDRB]1 Corinthians 11:23-30[/BIBLEDRB]
Will you please make up your mind as to what “Israel” is already?
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Cruxis117
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Truly I tell you, the Catholic Church, besides having compiled the Scriptures as they exist today, has been “familiar” with them for 2000 years. Longer than either you or I. How is it that the CC could’ve missed something that important?..Unless it didn’t exist.
The problem with a literal delineation of the O.T. scriptures, is that not all of them were literal.
Again, where is it explicitly revealed? All I see are the Second Coming of the Lord Christ Jesus in the verses you describe.
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Cat_Herder
Guest
Here’s one of these allegorical prophecies:
[BIBLEDRB]Malachi 4:1-6[/BIBLEDRB]
John the Baptist is not literally Elijah (John 3:21), and yet Jesus Himself declared John to be Elijah (Matt 11:13-15).
Another prophecy:
[BIBLEDRB]Ezekiel 44:2[/BIBLEDRB]
There is no particular gate in Jerusalem, or anywhere else on earth, that only Jesus passed through and was then shut to all others–other than the body of His Mother.
And another:
[BIBLEDRB]Malachi 1:11[/BIBLEDRB]
There is no other clean offering or pure sacrifice besides Calvary; yet Calvary was a one time event and thus not the fulfillment of this prophecy. This is why Jesus established the Eucharist, so that Calvary could be re-presented to the Father at every time and place and by every nation without having to be repeated.
So, MD, the problem is not that we don’t understand the prophecies. The problem is that you are decoupling the prophecies from their fulfillment in Jesus and demanding another fulfillment. But there shall be no other.
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panevino
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Hi moon, out of interest what’s your view of the strong (IMO) parallels of the events which occur to the “woman” in rev12 to Mary in MatthewIt’s not obvious at all, since the woman is not described literally but figuratively in verse one. So she represents something. Now what could that be???…a crown with twelve stars…the twelve tribes of Israel. ISRAEL! Oh yearh: ISRAEL :doh2:…
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Ie: matt2:7 Then Herod, privately calling the wise men, learned diligently of them the time of the star which appeared to them;.8 And sending them into Bethlehem, said: Go and diligently inquire after the child, and when you have found him, bring me word again, that I also may come to adore him…12 And having received an answer in sleep that they should not return to Herod, they went back another way into their country.13 And after they were departed, behold an angel of the Lord appeared in sleep to Joseph, saying: Arise, and take the child and his mother, and fly into Egypt and be there until I shall tell thee. For it will come to pass that Herod will seek the child to destroy him.14 Who arose, and took the child and his mother by night, and retired into Egypt: and he was there until the death of Herod:15 That it might be fulfilled which the Lord spoke by the prophet, saying: Out of Egypt have I called my son.16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying,18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping [for] her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.19 But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt,20 Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child’s life.
FYI I switched from DR to KJV about half way above
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gtrenewed
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I see now your problem in understanding spiritual things.
The bible is a collection of God’s revealed word to mankind. God’s word is revealed to be alive. God’s word exists eternally. God’s word is God. God’s word is Jesus. God’s word is outside of time. The physical bible created in time contains God’s word which is eternal and alive. As soon as you receive this word you receive God. Since everything was in God’s mind eternally and always and outside of time the bible always existed and was revealed in time as a physical object. God says that His thoughts are above our thoughts and His ways are above our ways.
The word is God. The physical is not the whole.
Humans are not the authors they are the instruments. While it reflects personality, divine inspiration does not allow for error, the expressed word is perfect. Otherwise, the ot prophecies could not have been so expertly woven together with multple levels of meaning over differing centuries.
The word of God is not another person it is God who exists as three persons in one. It is all a mystery we accept by faith.
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gtrenewed
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Your question must have a hidden agenda since I answered it the first time. Or are you asking where the literal name Jesus is in the ot and if so I would ask why?
Since the ot reveals the redemptive word of God, the redeemer is mentioned in every book of the bible.
The redeemer is Jesus, redeemer talked about in ot, equals Jesus referred to in ot.
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paul_c
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yes. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1
But scripture and the word are not synonyms. God incorporates far more than is written in the Bible, even the Catholic bible, which has 7 more books than the one you use.
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Cat_Herder
Guest
God created both the physical and the spritual. Hence He is not going to say one thing in the Bible and another in the cosmic laws.
[BIBLEDRB]Romans 1:20[/BIBLEDRB]
If by all of this you mean that the Bible is God and is to be worshiped with the adoration that Muslims give to their Koran, then I can’t go with you there.
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googie
Guest
These verses in Heb10:26-27 are referring to someone who “received” the knowledge of the truth, but obviously did not “accept” it, and therefore there is no other sacrifice for his/her sin. Blessings.
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gtrenewed
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I referrenced the catching up in 1Thessalonians which is also included in the larger “doctrine” of the rapture. Scripture reveals that the believer is not subject to God’s wrath, but this does not mean we escape judgement. However the judgement the believer undgergoes is not heaven or hell for that has already been decided and is in the lambs book of life but our works are judged.
From an evangelical point of view there is salvation and then there is sanctification. We are saved by grace through faith as a free gift of God when we believe the gospel. Sanctification is the growing up in the faith and is demonstrated by works among other things. Evangelicals believe that a true christian will be sanctified but that whether we see it or not if they truly believed they are saved.
Some would argue that a catholic is looking for the easy way out. To maintain a chance for heaven the formula is simple - go to mass, receive the sacraments, do a good work here aned there, and at least there is purgatory to get me in.
Neither “easy way out” characterization is accurate. Part of evangelical sanctification is growing in the knowledge of scripture which contain the promises of God which include the catching away. I sense that both sides could be talking about the same event from a different perspective. This intermediate coming of Jesus and rapture and His second coming and catching away could be the same event. It is like driving towards a mountain. When you are far way it looks like one big mountain with details not clearly seen. As you get closer you suddenly see the varying landscape more clearly. What is seen as two differing events separated by time may actually happen quickly together so that the catching away and rapture and second coming are one event.
However, I also do not equate the tribulation with the wrath of God. I sense that we could be here for the tribulation but surely will be gone for the final wrath. I am preparing that way for if it comes in my lifetime I want to have God’s word on my heart so to believe for extraordinary miracles during tribulation. Enduring to the end whether now or then takes the grace of God and knowing who He is and how much He loves us and what He has in store for me.
I also feel that what we control here and now is more important. However, I would suggest that growing in the knowledge of the Lord through scripture should be included as important.
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gtrenewed
Guest
Scripture is the word of God but not all of the word of God but all of God’s word are in harmony.
How do you know which bible I use?
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gtrenewed
Guest
Agreed.
Never said this. We worship in spirit and truth not an object produced by man.
Scripture says that God watches over His word. When I was ministering in a nursing home one patient warned me not to let go of my bible. To that I replied, it is not this book that will protect me but God’s word stored in my heart.
The physical book contains spirit and truth which is alive.
Of course at certain masses the physical book with the gospel is carried high in procession, has incense waved over it, and is kissed by the priest or deacon.
What do you think this means? Is it worship of a book?
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paul_c
Guest
Which is exactly the Catholic point. There is more to God’s word than just what is in scripture. There is also Tradition. And yes Tradition and scripture are in harmony.
so which Bible do you use?
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paul_c
Guest
First of all, Judgement means the deciding of whether you go to heaven or hell. note Matthew 25 31-46
31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,
32 and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’
37 Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’
40 And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’
41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’
44 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’
45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’
46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.
and this from Romans 2:
1 Therefore, you are without excuse, every one of you who passes judgment. For by the standard by which you judge another you condemn yourself, since you, the judge, do the very same things.
2 We know that the judgment of God on those who do such things is true.
3 Do you suppose, then, you who judge those who engage in such things and yet do them yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?
4 Or do you hold his priceless kindness, forbearance, and patience in low esteem, unaware that the kindness of God would lead you to repentance?
5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek.
10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek.
11 There is no partiality with God.
Note, in both of these passaged, both the righteous believers and the sinful are judged, with the righteous being rewarded with heaven, the evildoers are condemned to hell.
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paul_c
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This is one of the huge errors of the evangelicals. True, you need to be saved and then sanctified, but unless you achieve both, you will not go to heaven. Belief alone is only the first step of getting to heaven. You also need to be baptized (John 3, Acts 2), partake of the sacraments particularly the eucharist (John 6, 1Corithians 11), follow the commandments (Matthew 19), love God and neighbor, and do works of mercy (matthew 25). Many will be condemned according to Matthew 7 21-27
21 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, 10 but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’
23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’
24 “Everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock.
25 The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. But it did not collapse; it had been set solidly on rock.
26 And everyone who listens to these words of mine but does not act on them will be like a fool who built his house on sand.
27 The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. And it collapsed and was completely ruined.”
This is hilarious. Aren’t you the one who believes that the only thing required to get to heaven is to believe that Jesus will save you?
Honestly, Evangelicals put much more emphasis on this than do Catholics. If you were really confident in your faith, you wouldn’t worry about the end times.
We are all tested with the good and the bad in life. That is how our character is judged and how we decide whether we will love or not in life’s extreme moments. If that includes the wrath, so be it.
Of course it is. I have been reading the bible daily since I was 13 and I now read 5 chapters a day, plus whatever extra I need for apologetics. Plus I get 3 readings a day at mass . Evangelicals are not the only ones to read the Bible… It IS a Catholic book after all…
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