BirthControl

[yochumjy]

mercygate:

Although this is a much touted claim in pro-life circles, I seriously question the frequency of the abortificatient effect, which is secondary.

Besides, I know a young medical doctor * who was religiously * taking the pill following the birth of her second child, and got pregnant just 4 months after the second child was born while on the pill**!

So much for the abortifacient effect – not to say the contraceptive effect.

No one said it was perfect (in any direction). The account of one person hardly disproves any abortifacient effect. And frequency is irrelavent. Do you wish to tell God “It’s okay Lord, I’m pretty sure that we only killed a few of your children with the pill”. Killing the unborn is wrong, irregardless of the frequency.

 

[mercygate]

yochumjy:

No one said it was perfect (in any direction). The account of one person hardly disproves any abortifacient effect. And frequency is irrelavent. Do you wish to tell God “It’s okay Lord, I’m pretty sure that we only killed a few of your children with the pill”. Killing the unborn is wrong, irregardless of the frequency.

Of course you are absolutely correct.

I quibble over the abortifacient argument because the claims are often launched as if this were the primary and intended mechanism of the drug; and it is not. Such a characterization gives the impression that we don’t know what we are talking about and dilutes the credibility of the pro-life cause before an already-hostile audience.

 

[yochumjy]

mercygate:

Of course you are absolutely correct.

I quibble over the abortifacient argument because the claims are often launched as if this were the primary and intended mechanism of the drug; and it is not. Such a characterization gives the impression that we don’t know what we are talking about and dilutes the credibility of the pro-life cause before an already-hostile audience.

Does it matter that it isn’t primary and intended? If the pill has abortifacient qualities, then it is abortifacient. In fact, it is my understanding that science isn’t fully cognizant of how it really works. The level of hormones in the pill is not large enough to make the body believe it should not release an egg, which is the only way it is not abortifacient. The pill has been listed as an abortifacient in medical literature, what is the problem with calling it as such? If we loose credibility by relying on science, there is another more important issue at hand.

 

[mercygate]

Karin:

Really than can you explain why most “welfare families” never get out of the welfare loop and their children also stay in the loop and their kids and so on and so on.
A large majority of these people can work and refuse to work or they refuse to work and keep having kids that I as a tax payer have to pay for…I for one am getting sick of these people looking for a handout and not wanting to help themselves.

This is a thread about the theology and anthropology of the Catholic position on human conception. The point you make here would better fit in a thread on Catholic social teaching, which might be entitled: “Must we bear one another’s burdens?”

 

[StratusRose]

Karin:

FYI: I was responding to an earlier post by ElizabethAnne.
I think that these people should stop being given handouts. As to ABC …perhaps if these people insist on remaining on welfare (and being lazy and not getting a job) and having more kids they should be forced to have a shot or something so they can not have anymore kids till they can afford them…this is just my 2 cents.

How compassionate of you. This sounds a lot like what Margaret Sanger said.

 

[Karin]

StratusRose:

How compassionate of you. This sounds a lot like what Margaret Sanger said.

Really…that is interesting . So you are all for giving handouts to people that only have kids to get more $$$???
And as to compassion…I have tons of it but I do put my foot down when these people do nothing to help themselves and keep wanting the taxpayers to foot the bill because they can not keep their pants on!

 

[mercygate]

Karin:

Really…that is interesting . So you are all for giving handouts to people that only have kids to get more $$$???
And as to compassion…I have tons of it but I do put my foot down when these people do nothing to help themselves and keep wanting the taxpayers to foot the bill because they can not keep their pants on!

Take this to another thread!

 

[yochumjy]

Karin:

Really…that is interesting . So you are all for giving handouts to people that only have kids to get more $$$???
And as to compassion…I have tons of it but I do put my foot down when these people do nothing to help themselves and keep wanting the taxpayers to foot the bill because they can not keep their pants on!

There is an issue with giving money with no accountability, but you don’t have the right to force people into sterilization over it. You never answered my reply on creating a new culture of STDs because your forcing birth control on people, who will ultimately respond to that forcing in some way. The answer is accountability not new government regulations. You are letting your anger (which is understandable) get in the way of the best solution, instead of a knee-jerk reaction.

 

[Karin]

yochumjy:

There is an issue with giving money with no accountability, but you don’t have the right to force people into sterilization over it. You never answered my reply on creating a new culture of STDs because your forcing birth control on people, who will ultimately respond to that forcing in some way. The answer is accountability not new government regulations. You are letting your anger (which is understandable) get in the way of the best solution, instead of a knee-jerk reaction.

**I was asked not to persue this…sorry, so I will not discuss this here **

 

[yochumjy]

**I was asked not to persue this…sorry, so I will not discuss this here **

Actually, the “handouts” part is off topic, but you apparently think that giving out birth control is proper use of controlling the poor. Artificial birth control makes STDs ultimately rise since it makes people feel safe and or “in control” of some part of their lives. The poor that want to live off the government need to be put in control of their lives with repercussions, not have things forced upon them while they continue to live off the government.

ABC is no answer, it does not foster a relationship based on gift of self. We are all called to relationships of gift of self. It is what Christ did for us, it is what he calls us to.

 

[Karin]

yochumjy:

Actually, the “handouts” part is off topic, but you apparently think that giving out birth control is proper use of controlling the poor. Artificial birth control makes STDs ultimately rise since it makes people feel safe and or “in control” of some part of their lives. The poor that want to live off the government need to be put in control of their lives with repercussions, not have things forced upon them while they continue to live off the government.

ABC is no answer, it does not foster a relationship based on gift of self. We are all called to relationships of gift of self. It is what Christ did for us, it is what he calls us to.

Well somebody either needs to control the ones that need controlling or teach them NFP…I dont see that occuring to often though.
And if forcing these woman to take ABC so “handouts” can be curtailed I say go for it…I do not see ABC raising the STD occureneces but I could be wrong…if you are using the ABC to curtail births due to lack of funds how is that going to effect the rise of STD’s?

 

[Karin]

yochumjy:

Actually, the “handouts” part is off topic, but you apparently think that giving out birth control is proper use of controlling the poor. Artificial birth control makes STDs ultimately rise since it makes people feel safe and or “in control” of some part of their lives. The poor that want to live off the government need to be put in control of their lives with repercussions, not have things forced upon them while they continue to live off the government.

ABC is no answer, it does not foster a relationship based on gift of self. We are all called to relationships of gift of self. It is what Christ did for us, it is what he calls us to.

Also in regards to the OP…I think that certain people should be allowed if they choose to practice ABC…NFP is not for everyone or every couple and not everyone is Catholic.

 

[Celia]

Karin:

Well somebody either needs to control the ones that need controlling or teach them NFP…I dont see that occuring to often though.
And if forcing these woman to take ABC so “handouts” can be curtailed I say go for it…I do not see ABC raising the STD occureneces but I could be wrong…if you are using the ABC to curtail births due to lack of funds how is that going to effect the rise of STD’s?

So…you think women should be forced (and I’d love to know how you plan to implement that little manuever - shove it down their throat? Hold 'em down and stick 'em?) to take dangerous birth control pills and shots and God knows what else, because your tax dollars are in jeopardy? Every life is precious, whether the child’s parents are on welfare is irrelevant. I’m seriously disgusted by this post.

And by your logic, I never would have been born. Thank God my parents were not so short sighted. They weren’t on welfare but they did need public assistance when we were younger.

Using the pill contributes to the rise in STD’s because the pill/patch/shot other ABC methods do not protect against STD’s. People will think it is ok to have sex because they won’t get pregnant. They don’t think about the diseases. So then your taxes will be going for their free health care instead of feeding their kids. I know which one I’d rather pay for.
Artificial birth control has never and will never solve anything.

 

[StratusRose]

Karin:

Really…that is interesting . So you are all for giving handouts to people that only have kids to get more $$$???
And as to compassion…I have tons of it but I do put my foot down when these people do nothing to help themselves and keep wanting the taxpayers to foot the bill because they can not keep their pants on!

I was at the grocery store on Tuesday and a woman who looked cracked out on various drugs asked me if I could help her. She claimed that she had left her wallet at home and needed money for gas. I knew she was lying. You know what I did? I gave her my last $5. Why? Because she asked me for it. If she had asked for my jacket I would have given it to her also. It doesn’t matter what she asked for or what her intentions were, all that mattered is that I showed her compassion and I am sure that Jesus saw that. If she really did rake me over (to which I am not concerned it was only 5 bucks) Jesus will deal with her as He sees fit.

As for taxes, we have to pay taxes no matter what. If we got rid of the welfare program we would still have to pay them. I am so tired of people complaining about their precious tax dollars. How do you even know that the specific amound from your paycheck went directly to the welfare program? Maybe it went to pay a teacher’s salary. No one knows. Some people are legitimately on welfare, some are not. It’s not up to me who decides who gets welfare and who doesn’t. But if it were up to me I’d make lazy people who pop out babies get a job and cut them off. But I wouldn’t make them get sterilized. That is opening up a whole new can of worms. It’s not up to you or me to decide that.

 

[Karin]

Celia:

So…you think women should be forced (and I’d love to know how you plan to implement that little manuever - shove it down their throat? Hold 'em down and stick 'em?) to take dangerous birth control pills and shots and God knows what else, because your tax dollars are in jeopardy?
**Implement it …before you give them their check they need to get their shot or pill…dont take the ABC then no $$! **

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Every life is precious, whether the child’s parents are on welfare is irrelevant.
Totally agree…but why should I be forced to pay for these kids that are not even mine???

And by your logic, I never would have been born. Thank God my parents were not so short sighted. They weren’t on welfare but they did need public assistance when we were younger.
There is a difference …I am only talking about people that stay on welfare and keep having kids to get a bigger check each month.

Using the pill contributes to the rise in STD’s because the pill/patch/shot other ABC methods do not protect against STD’s.
If the people are married…this is a non-issue.

People will think it is ok to have sex because they won’t get pregnant.
**Once again if they are married why is this an issue? **

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They don’t think about the diseases. So then your taxes will be going for their free health care instead of feeding their kids. I know which one I’d rather pay for.
**IMHO it is cheaper to treat an STD than feed a child for 18 years or longer **

 

[Celia]

I’m sorry I don’t know how to do the quote by quote thing so I’ll do my best to answer all your points.

• But you wouldn’t know if they actually took the ABC or not, first of all. Would they then be submitted to drug tests? That seems awful humiliating. And forced sterilization - we won’t give you money to eat unless you take these health-compromising pills/shots etc.

-Because Jesus said love your neighbor as you do yourself. Is that always fair? And easy? No. But he didn’t say it would be.

-How do you know who is having kids for more money and who is doing it because they love children and felt called to have another one, that maybe they could make it? People that abuse the system rampantly should be given harsher penalties, but I hardly think forcing them onto drugs is the answer. Especially drugs of an abortifacient nature.

-what about the people that aren’t married? I would venture to say that a good number aren’t. Unwed single moms and such. People that are lucky enough to have two solid parents in loving monagamous marriages are not usually on public assistance. At least not for an extended length of time.

-Just because it’s cheaper, is it better? I’d rather people have kids than STDs!

 

[Karin]

Celia:

I’m sorry I don’t know how to do the quote by quote thing so I’ll do my best to answer all your points.

• But you wouldn’t know if they actually took the ABC or not, first of all. Would they then be submitted to drug tests? That seems awful humiliating. And forced sterilization - we won’t give you money to eat unless you take these health-compromising pills/shots etc.
  Sure you would they would go into the welfare office and take it right there in front of you. **As to drug tests being humiliating…no more so than a person on parole that has to take random pee tests. **

-Because Jesus said love your neighbor as you do yourself. Is that always fair? And easy? No. But he didn’t say it would be.
There is a difference between love your neighbor and support them!

-How do you know who is having kids for more money and who is doing it because they love children and felt called to have another one, that maybe they could make it?
If they could make it then they would not be on welfare to begin with. There is a difference between a family that had say 4 kids and the main bread winner lost their job and needs help till they get a new one and a family that has always been on welfare (most for generations) that just keep having kids that the state is supporting.
-People that abuse the system rampantly should be given harsher penalties, but I hardly think forcing them onto drugs is the answer. Especially drugs of an abortifacient nature.
I am all ears…share some of those other things that could be done for these type of people (abuse the system)

-what about the people that aren’t married? I would venture to say that a good number aren’t. Unwed single moms and such.
Then they should not be having kids to begin with or am I wrong that the Church teaches sex is for marriage only? And of that is the case perhaps the Church should step in and teach them right from wrong and support them?

-People that are lucky enough to have two solid parents in loving monagamous marriages are not usually on public assistance. At least not for an extended length of time.
**Hmmm…I guess you have not been to NJ or NY. This has not been my experience **

 

[Celia]

• So criminals on parole are equal to people that have had a lot of kids? And the government gets to decide who has had enough? Sounds a little 1984, don’t you think?
• I don’t think so. You support yourself because you love yourself. So you feed and take care of yourself. Our neighbor needs to be taken care of too. Even if they are taking advantage. They’ve gotta eat, gotta have someplace to live. Why make the children suffer.

-The state would have no idea why these people decided to have more children and to force drugs on them because they make bad decisions is wrong. Period.

-Well, I’m not a social worker or other government worker, but several warnings to start with about suspicions in their particular families allocation of funds and then a one-on-one plan with a social worker to help people get back on their feet, kids and all. I think a lot of times these people don’t *want *to be in these situations, but they feel stuck. They need help, and career training, not government forced abortion drugs.

-Of course they shouldn’t be having kids out of wedlock. But people make mistakes, should we just leave them in the dust to fend for themsleves? The church has many outreach programs to teach NFP, (ccli, popepaulvi, etc.)and help poorer citizens. But you can’t force people to accept it. Sometimes prayers and financial assistance is all they can do.

- I’ve lived in New York state my entire life. Since birth and I’m still here. And I lived in a low-income apartment complex my entire childhood. I’ve lived on and next door to people accepting assistance. It has been my experience that a lot of families that have single parents are on assistance. I would be surprised if the ratio of two parent families was higher than that of singles.

 

[Karin]

- So criminals on parole are equal to people that have had a lot of kids?Not at all…I was just explaining that a pee test is not humiliating And the government gets to decide who has had enough? The goverment can say…you are abusing the system we are not giving you any extra $$

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• I don’t think so. You support yourself because you love yourself. So you feed and take care of yourself. Our neighbor needs to be taken care of too. Even if they are taking advantage. They’ve gotta eat, gotta have someplace to live. **Your point…go get a job then (oh wait why work when I can get a check each month and not do anything?) or perhaps stop having kids that you know you can not afford to raise. **You seem to think I am targeting people on welfare that really need it…I am not I am targeting families that for generations remain on welfare!

-The state would have no idea why these people decided to have more children and to force drugs on them because they make bad decisions is wrong. **Once again I am speaking of families that for generations remain on welfare…we all know why they are on welfare that long…they are lazy and expect handouts they feel it is their right! THAT IS WRONG!!! **

• They need help, and career training, not government forced abortion drugs. ANd they do get help ($$$, Career training, schooling etc.) how much more must we do for these people? When is enough, enough??

-Of course they shouldn’t be having kids out of wedlock. But people make mistakes, should we just leave them in the dust to fend for themsleves? No offer assistance for a limited time and then they can fend for themselves…
The church has many outreach programs to teach NFP, (ccli, popepaulvi, etc.)and help poorer citizens. But you can’t force people to accept it. Sometimes prayers and financial assistance is all they can do. **And that I see is working wonders **

- I’ve lived in New York state my entire life. Since birth and I’m still here. And I lived in a low-income apartment complex my entire childhood. I’ve lived on and next door to people accepting assistance. It has been my experience that a lot of families that have single parents are on assistance. I would be surprised if the ratio of two parent families was higher than that of singles. **And here in NJ it is my experinence that two parent families are on welfare for generations more often…but then these are also two parent families that are not legally married otherwise their monthly check amount would be less…so just how many of these single gals are really single or perhaps they have a man on the side **

Celia-
Either way you and I will never agree on this topic…that is fine and I can understand where you are coming from I just do not agree with it. So I suggest we agree to disagree on this matter.

 

[Celia]

Karin:

Celia-
Either way you and I will never agree on this topic…that is fine and I can understand where you are coming from I just do not agree with it. So I suggest we agree to disagree on this matter.

Fine with me. I was starting to get a headache. ( At this point we’re just lobbying the same basic points back and forth anyway with different language) I just hope you’ll reconsider what birth control is and what it does and how just the fact that forcing people to take drugs is wrong. There’s more avenues to solve the problem than birth control, in my eyes. And just because they aren’t being implemented doesn’t mean that they’re not out there - I doubt every way to help these people has been tried. Bottom line, it’s against basic human rights to tell people they can’t procreate and give them potentially dangerous drugs to try to insure this. Even if they are abusing the system. It’s wrong what they are doing but two wrongs don’t make a right.