BirthControl

[ElizabethAnne]

lydiabeeuk:

i’d like to hear about what it’s like living out this teaching on contraception? Married couples out there - honestly - is it hard to do?, do you ever feel you would be closer as a couple if you could have sex more often?,

is it true that it’s only about 4 days in the month u have to avoid if u are using Natural contraception?

My husband and I have been charting my fertility signs (using NFP) for almost two months (we were married in September). The charting itself is easy and doesn’t take much time. The number of days varies based on the woman’s cycle. It can be more one month and less another. One poster cited 8 days a month. That plus or minus a couple of days is normal.

It’s important to note that NFP isn’t a contraceptive. Contraceptive means “against conception.” NFP does not work against conception. It is a natural way of determining fertility and using that information to plan a family. It can be used to conceive or postpone pregnancy, depending on the couple’s discernment of God’s will in their family.

Married couples using NFP to delay pregnancy choose to abstain on days where the wife is fertile. These couples do not have sex with less frequency than contracepting married couples. They “make up” for the last time, and have sex just as often as couples who do not abstain.

Is it difficult to abstain? It sure can be. But if there really is a good reason to not have children, then there really is a good reason to not make love. But this process has really allowed my husband and I to communicate about our love life and appreciate the great gift of sex that God gave us as a married couple!

God bless.

 

[ElizabethAnne]

Karin:

Really than can you explain why most “welfare families” never get out of the welfare loop and their children also stay in the loop and their kids and so on and so on.
A large majority of these people can work and refuse to work or they refuse to work and keep having kids that I as a tax payer have to pay for…I for one am getting sick of these people looking for a handout and not wanting to help themselves.

These are not the people I was referring to as they obviously cannot hold down a full-time job. They lack the desire to do so, which is definitely a requirement.

It seems that you are personally opposed to welfare. According to you a “large majority” of welfare families are abusing the system. I think it is unfair to say that a majority of people on welfare are just lazy. Many work more than one job and still don’t make enough to survive. That’s why the Church works to provide affordable housing and food pantries to those hard-working people. We are called by God to assist the least of our brothers.

You seem to think the only way to fix welfare is to stop those lazy people from having more children. How will that get them out of the system? Will it make them get up and go to work? If welfare is being abused the way you suggest, I do not believe regulated birth control to fix it. The solution just isn’t that simple, and the problems it would cause would be far worse. Once we start giving the government the right to decide how many children a class of people can have, we start down a dangerous path. On our way to becoming China perhaps?

 

[Karin]

ElizabethAnne:

.

It seems that you are personally opposed to welfare. According to you a “large majority” of welfare families are abusing the system. I think it is unfair to say that a majority of people on welfare are just lazy. Many work more than one job and still don’t make enough to survive. That’s why the Church works to provide affordable housing and food pantries to those hard-working people. We are called by God to assist the least of our brothers.
** No, not opposed to “welfare” opposed to people that abuse they system though. Yes there are people out there that work 2 or more jobs and still can not make ends meat… these people I do not mind helping or let me clarify…I think that anyone that is honestly trying to get out of the welfare system or make ends meat deserves our help!!!**

You seem to think the only way to fix welfare is to stop those lazy people from having more children. How will that get them out of the system? **Oh I have a solution for that also (getting them out of the system) but it is not PC **

Will it make them get up and go to work? **Take away their funds (monthly checks) if after say 2 months they do not have a job …that will get them to work. **

 

[JimO]

Karin:

Well somebody either needs to control the ones that need controlling or teach them NFP…I dont see that occuring to often though. And if forcing these woman to take ABC so “handouts” can be curtailed I say go for it…

Did you know that the founder of Planned Parenthood, Margaret Sanger, felt the same way? In fact, she thought that those unfit to be parents, either because of education, financial ability, and even race, should not be permitted to have them. She advocated that government permits be issued to parents to have children and that the number (never more than three) should be determined based on the “condition” of the parents.

Attaching any kind of condition on whether people should be allowed, encouraged or discouraged from having children is dangerous thinking. A child growing up in a poor home is inconsequential compared with being allowed to exist in the first place and suffering on this earth is nothing compared to Eternity.

 

[Karin]

JimO:

Did you know that the founder of Planned Parenthood, Margaret Sanger, felt the same way? In fact, she thought that those unfit to be parents, either because of education, financial ability, and even race, should not be permitted to have them. She advocated that government permits be issued to parents to have children and that the number (never more than three) should be determined based on the “condition” of the parents.

Attaching any kind of condition on whether people should be allowed, encouraged or discouraged from having children is dangerous thinking. A child growing up in a poor home is inconsequential compared with being allowed to exist in the first place and suffering on this earth is nothing compared to Eternity.

Actually I did know that.
I say everyone should be allowed to have children…I have no issue with that…my issue lays in the fact that there are people that keep having kids that can not afford to feed or cloth or get them medical care and I as a taxpayer am forced to help support them…that I think is wrong!

 

[JimO]

Karin:

…my issue lays in the fact that there are people that keep having kids that can not afford to feed or cloth or get them medical care and I as a taxpayer am forced to help support them…that I think is wrong!

I understand and sometimes feel the same way, but then I think that no soul is an accident even if they create hardships for us all here in this life. Each soul is so precious in the sight of God that I think we will see things so differently in heaven when we understand how much God loves each one of us.

 

[HappyCatholic01]

No offense, but is your faith in God that lacking that you think he will provide you with more than you can handle, children or otherwise?

And WHO ARE YOU to determine who is fit to be a parent? I daresay people “working at McDonalds” would take umbrage at this fact…

If the WORST thing that happens to most people is (in their minds) death, then I say “lucky them.”

Why would you fear death? A chance to go be with our Lord in favor of this sad, tragic, sinful life on earth?

 

[HappyCatholic01]

PNRC:

I was not trying to down blue-collar workers but, those working for 5.15 (or whatever it is) an hour I doubt can afford to raise children in a way that would be fitting.

No offense dude, but Hitler would be proud.

This line of thought has ties to eugenics, genocide, and many other horrible notions.

Let’s kill all the mentally challenged peopel, and senior citizens with Alzheimers (my grandmother), and anyone else that YOU, on what authority I have no idea, have deemed acceptable.

Where do YOU draw the line?

 

[HappyCatholic01]

lydiabeeuk:

i’d like to hear about what it’s like living out this teaching on contraception? Married couples out there - honestly - is it hard to do?, do you ever feel you would be closer as a couple if you could have sex more often?,

is it true that it’s only about 4 days in the month u have to avoid if u are using Natural contraception?

I’m not married, but say it isn’t nearly as hard as dying with a mortal sin on your soul…

NOTHING ON EARTH is worth disobeying God. NOTHING. The question of difficulty SHOULDN’T EVEN enter our minds. It is simple. If God says do it, we do it. If He says don’t do it, we don’t. No doubt. No rationale needed. Just obedience, and you’re good to go!

 

[HappyCatholic01]

Karin:

Really than can you explain why most “welfare families” never get out of the welfare loop and their children also stay in the loop and their kids and so on and so on.
A large majority of these people can work and refuse to work or they refuse to work and keep having kids that I as a tax payer have to pay for…I for one am getting sick of these people looking for a handout and not wanting to help themselves.

Did I miss the part where God said these rules apply “only when…”?

Why do we try to relationalize these things?

 

[kaymart]

PNRC:

I was not trying to down blue-collar workers but, those working for 5.15 (or whatever it is) an hour I doubt can afford to raise children in a way that would be fitting.

That is the silliest reason to use Artifical Birth Control. If you are making that amount, consider waiting to marry, if bad luck befalls you during your Marriage its call NFP-I know popping a pill or putting on a condom is easier, with NFP you need to use your brain a little but it works and is much safer. The problem is people are either too lazy or too (you know what) to use this very effective method. And one more point—Has making Artificial Birth Control avalible to the poor really cut down the illegetimate and welfare births??? Check out a Womens Clinic (not abortion) where 99 percent of the poor pregnant girls, some for their 2nd or 3rd time, are unmarried or never married Almost half do not have a “partner” or even know who is the Daddy, so tell me is it working?

 

[Traditional_Ang]

PNRC:

Why do you Catholics forbid Birthcontrol? Somepeople would simply make bad partents ant raise bad children and others don’t have the money to support them (People working at McDonalds) and I could go on with the list of reasons some people would be wise in not having children.

PNRC:

The act of seual union between a husband and wife is SACRAMENTAL - That means that, assuming that neither partner is doing anything to block the action of the Holy Spirit, the act confers Sanctifying Grace on both partners and allows them to participate in and mirror the union between Christ and the Church.

In the Nicene Creed, we call the Holy Spirit “The Lord and giver of Life”. That means the Holy Spirit’s activity is always life-giving and brings about life.

Contraception blocks that action by making the Couple unable to participate in the life giving action of the Holy Spirit, and therefore blocks the Sanctifying Grace which would otherwise pour into the marital relationship.

Why do you think that Catholics who contracept have the same divorce rate as the rest of the world, while those who don’t have a divorce rate of about 4%?

Could that difference be due to the fact that those couples who follow the Church’s teachings and don’t use Artificial Contraception are receiving life giving, marriage-saving Sanctifying Grace every time they engage in sexual relations while those who disobey the Church and use Artificial Contraception aren’t receiving that marriage-saving Sanctifying Grace?

Could the Church have been right for all of those 2,000 years? or, are you trying to say that the Church was wrong because the fashion is now to use Artificial Contraception?

The answer here should be self-evident, esp. after you look at the comparative divorce rate and study how the Holy Spirit transmits Grace in the Sacrament of Marriage.

In Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

mercygate:

I’d say more like 8 days a month.

Yes, it’s hard in some ways. But not as hard as having a child when your circumstances (health, financial, other serious factors) are sufficient to justify not bringing another life into the world.

No, it’s not all that hard. You learn a lot about mutual respect and what love really means.

Scriptural warrant:

Romans Chapter 1

[14] I am under obligation both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish:
[15] so I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome.
[16]For I am not ashamed of the gospel: it is the power of God for salvation to every one who has faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
. . .

[19] For what can be known about God is plain to them [even barbarians], because God has shown it to them.
[20] Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they [even barbarians] are without excuse;
[21] for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened.
[22] Claiming to be wise, they became fools,
[23] and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles.
[24] Therefore **God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, **
[25] because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen.
[26] For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural,
[27] and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error.
[28] And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, **God gave them up to a base mind and to improper conduct. **
. . .
[32] Though they know God’s decree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them but approve those who practice them.

---

This passage links sexual perversions with idolatry, and Paul names the most conspicuous transgressions.

Paul here affirms that the natural law, which points directly to the nature of God, is completely knowable even to barbarians and without supernatural grace. This natural law reveals that “natural relations” between a man and woman are directed toward procreation. To engage in sexual relations while interposing a barrier between the husband and wife is “unnatural” and “exchanges the truth about God for a lie and worships and serves the creature rather than the Creator.”

mercygate:

I hope you don’t mind if I list this again. I used one I heard from
The Theology of the Body on EWTN, but this one wshould work on Protestants who are open to listening to the Scriptures.

As the Anglican in the group, I have to apologyze for the pernicious act the Anglican Communion took when they opened the door to the use of Artificial Contraception by believing Christians in the 1931 Quadrilateral.

I believe that mistake led to all of their other errors.

I thank God that Pope Paul VI didn’t listen to the people in the Vatican who wanted him to soften the Church’s stance and that he decided to exercize his prophetic office when he released Humanae Vitae.

May he rest in Peace.

In Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Karin:

Celia-
Either way you and I will never agree on this topic…that is fine and I can understand where you are coming from I just do not agree with it. So I suggest we agree to disagree on this matter.

Karin:

We have to be very careful not to conflate the problems of Transgenerational Welfare and Welfare Cheating with Contraception or Abortion. That causes people to make decisions that are wrong in both the eyes of the Church and the eyes of God.

I believe that the problems you’re describing are most easily dealt with by the application of some fairly basic Scriptural Principals that we’ve chosen to ignore in our present Welfare System:

1. He or she will will not work should not eat! (It doesn’t say does not but “will not” means that people have to be willing to work for their food and shelter)
2. From each according to their abilities,; To each according to their needs (It’s in the Book of Acts - Karl Marx didn’t invent this one)
3. Women who are young enough to be sexually active and to have children must not be on the dole but must be encouraged to marry and must be chaste until then.
4. Children are best raised by fathers and mothers who are married to each other - Single women who choose to get pregnant should give their babies up for adoption by married couples, who should adopt rather than use Artificial Fertilization and other such methods to conceive.

Could you see how this would work better than the present fraud prone system? If we could get something like the above in place, could you se how forced Contraception or Sterilization would just be wrong?

In Christ, Michael

 

[mattrue]

Read - Christpher West - “the Good News About Sex And Marriage”

Sex Is For Married Couples That Give Themselves To One Another And Using Birth Control Is Not 100% Giving Of Oneself.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Karin:

Actually I did know that.
I say everyone should be allowed to have children…I have no issue with that…my issue lays in the fact that there are people that keep having kids that can not afford to feed or cloth or get them medical care and I as a taxpayer am forced to help support them…that I think is wrong!

Karin:

It’s wrong if tax money is being extorted from you to pay for the purpose of taking care of the same non-mobile people who aren’t doing anything to provide for themselves and their families.

It’s also wrong for you to make such a deal of it that you would be willing to require that people sin in order to save your wallet.

In the end we aren’t LIBERTARIANS. We’re CATHOLICS, and our Lord requires us to help people who are in need and not to grumble about it.

I’m learning that the hard way as I’m now polydisabled and find myself on the other end of the exchange.

I’m not going to bother with the details.

I just ask you to read this, and ask what it is the Lord judges:

*"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’

Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’

And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’

Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’

Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’

He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’

And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." Matt. 25:31-46. NAB.*

Remember that many people on welfare or receiving help with medical bills are intact families. Pretend for a minute that the family receiving food stamps and getting help with medical bills is the Holy Family. Are you so sure you’d want to be heard to resent our Lord that much?

Just a thought.

In Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

mattrue:

Read - Christpher West - “the Good News About Sex And Marriage”

Sex Is For Married Couples That Give Themselves To One Another And Using Birth Control Is Not 100% Giving Of Oneself.

Mattrue:

This book gets quoted with some frequency on the EWTN series I cited earlier, and they like it a lot. Mercygate had found an interpretation of a scripture that I hadn’t seen before, and one that was clearly in line with the plain meaning of the scripture.

I just believed it would be effective with those who accepted the authority of Sacred Scripture but not the Authority of the Church.

I feel that, in those cases, we need to alert each other that they’ve founbd something we thought might be helpful. It’s called “Praising the good”, and I think we need to try to do it more.

In Christ, Michael

 

[Karin]

Traditional Ang:

Karin:

We have to be very careful not to conflate the problems of Transgenerational Welfare and Welfare Cheating with Contraception or Abortion. That causes people to make decisions that are wrong in both the eyes of the Church and the eyes of God.

I believe that the problems you’re describing are most easily dealt with by the application of some fairly basic Scriptural Principals that we’ve chosen to ignore in our present Welfare System:

1. He or she will will not work should not eat! (It doesn’t say does not but “will not” means that people have to be willing to work for their food and shelter)
2. From each according to their abilities,; To each according to their needs (It’s in the Book of Acts - Karl Marx didn’t invent this one)
3. Women who are young enough to be sexually active and to have children must not be on the dole but must be encouraged to marry and must be chaste until then.
4. Children are best raised by fathers and mothers who are married to each other - Single women who choose to get pregnant should give their babies up for adoption by married couples, who should adopt rather than use Artificial Fertilization and other such methods to conceive.

Could you see how this would work better than the present fraud prone system? If we could get something like the above in place, could you se how forced Contraception or Sterilization would just be wrong?

In Christ, Michael

Michael …these are wonderful ideas so how do we as a country get these things impelmented???

 

[Karin]

Traditional Ang:

Karin:

It’s wrong if tax money is being extorted from you to pay for the purpose of taking care of the same non-mobile people who aren’t doing anything to provide for themselves and their families.

It’s also wrong for you to make such a deal of it that you would be willing to require that people sin in order to save your wallet.

In the end we aren’t LIBERTARIANS. We’re CATHOLICS, and our Lord requires us to help people who are in need and not to grumble about it.

I’m learning that the hard way as I’m now polydisabled and find myself on the other end of the exchange.

I’m not going to bother with the details.

I just ask you to read this, and ask what it is the Lord judges:

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’

Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’

And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’

*Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ *

Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’

He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’

And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." Matt. 25:31-46. NAB.

Remember that many people on welfare or receiving help with medical bills are intact families. Pretend for a minute that the family receiving food stamps and getting help with medical bills is the Holy Family. Are you so sure you’d want to be heard to resent our Lord that much?

Just a thought.

In Christ, Michael

Michael-
I am sure that the HOly Family would not be sitting on their bums with their hands out …I am sure that they would be working towards getting off the wefare dole.
I have ,** once again**, no issues with people that actually need the welfare system…I have issues with people that are capable of working and refuse to since it is easier to get a check from the welfare dept. for doing nothing.

 

[alcmattingly]

Did you know that when they started testing the first run of this pill that it was tested on both men and women? The men’s testacles shrank so they stopped testing men. We wouldn’t want any shrunken testacles. Two women died. They continued testing on women. Equal rights? I think not.
The FDA admits that this pill is so dangerous that if it was on the used for any other reason other than pregnancy preventative (like to treat headaches for example) it wouldn’t be approved because it is so dangerous.
The Church has held its ground on issues like this for many reasons, She does have 2000 years experience so I think She knows what she is talking about. And, by the way, US Catholics are not the only group of people who oppose birth control. I will pray for you.