Bishop Brown answers my letter and sends one the same day to SJB pastor, 2-10-05

[Veritas]

It would seem that the real issue is not the kids’ enrollment in the school, but the public scandal caused by the two “parents” who publicly (and proudly?) flaunt Church doctrine.

What a great opportunity for the pastors to explain Church teaching to the congregation! I would hope that the clergy don’t cause confusion in their congregation by not teaching properly and thereby implying that it’s “no big deal.”

Are we to punish a child for the orientation of the parents?

No

Do you also believe that the children of hetersexual couples whose marriages are canonically irregular should also be expelled from school?

Strawman. Not a valid comparison because irregular marriages don’t (or very rarely) cause public scandal.

What if a parent is an alcoholic or is in prison for robbery?

Strawman. Not a valid comparison, unless of course the parent continually shows up drunk to Mass. A parent in prison does not necessarily flaunt church teaching. But if a parent continually, publicly, and unrepentantly robs the collection plate, does the parish ignore that? (Or if you want to restrict the issue solely to Church doctrine, the parent spits out the Communion host every Sunday in front of the congregation. . .) If a teacher shows up drunk to teach your kids, do you avert your eyes?

 

[miguel]

Great points.

 

[GloriaPatri4]

jim orr:

Bishop Brown answered my letter and sent one the same day, Feb 10, to the pastor of St. John the Baptist Church “to express my appreciation and support for the way you and your staff have conduced yourselves amid the controversy brought about by the revelation that the child of a same-sex couple had been admitted to your parish school.”

Have any of the parents and or parishioners at SJB heard of, or seen, Bishop Brown’s letter to pastor Benzoni and know how the families there have received it?

Dear Jim,

**Thanks for posting this. No, I don’t think any of us were aware of the bishop’s letter to Fr. Benzoni. We are aware of a letter that Fr. Horan sent to the attorney who has been advising the group of parents/parishioners. The letter basically states that the “Considerations Regarding Proposals…” doesn’t apply to the situation at St. John the Baptist. Fr. Horan pointed out that the document is not a papal statement, it’s only a clarification and it doesn’t represent the definitive Church position on such matters. **

**I guess the only way for Bishop Tod Brown and Father Horan to recognize the validity of a church document is if it specifically addresses them and the Diocese of Orange by name. **

It doesn’t surprise us at all that the bishop is supportive of the situation at St. John the Baptist. The bishop is probably very pleased that these kinds of things (homosexual activists) are being infiltrated into the schools in his diocese. If Bishop Brown condones same sex marriage which is evidenced by his memo sent to all the priests in the Diocese of Orange in favor of same sex marriage why would he not condone active homosexual couples flaunting their lifestyle in front of children?

**St. John the Baptist church and school biggest supporters are Bishop Brown and Gay Rights groups. YOU GO, GAY RIGHTS CHURCH!!:dancing: **

 

[catholicwife]

This is for you Katherine2

St. Louis Archbishop Warns of Upcoming Persecution
2/11/05 In an interview with LifeSiteNews.com, St. Louis Archbishop Raymond Burke said that as Catholics continue to speak out on life and family issues they will face persecution. “There is going to be a persecution with regard to this, that’s clear,” said the archbishop.

The media has painted the St. Louis Church leader as a mean-spirited bully, yet in person he is soft-spoken and kind with a keen sense of the truth and an urgency to convey it for the salvation of souls. Rather than using high-sounding platitudes which coast over the heads of many, Archbishop Burke speaks plainly the teaching of the Church on matters of central importance, without fear of being labeled politically incorrect.

During the debate in the US about refusing Communion to Catholic politicians who support abortion, Burke issued a pastoral letter explaining that although the refusal by a pastor or bishop to distribute holy Communion to anyone is a “source of great sorrow…[w]hat would be profoundly more sorrowful would be the failure of a bishop to call a soul to conversion, the failure to protect the flock from scandal and the failure to safeguard the worthy reception of Communion.”

With regard to voting by Catholics, the archbishop stated clearly in a meeting held by the diocesan pro-life office, “When we go to vote, we must take into consideration all of the stands politicians make. But procured abortion, that has to be our first question.”

Archbishop Burke has been equally clear and courageous on the hot topic of same-sex “marriage.” Rather than avoiding the reason behind the gay “marriage” push — the societal acceptance of homosexuality — Burke addressed it head-on, warning that the tendency to avoid the issue is dangerous. In his diocesan paper he wrote, “There is a tendency to accept same-sex relationships because we do not want to deal with the embarrassment and hurt of recognizing same-sex attraction as disordered. The fact that our American culture more and more fails to make any distinction between same-sex attraction and heterosexual attraction does not justify our failure to make the distinction, respecting God’s gift of human life in its integrity and helping others to attain the perfection to which we are called as true children of God.”

After concelebrating the massive vigil Mass preceding the US March for Life a few weeks ago, Archbishop Burke told LifeSiteNews.com that his motivation to continue to speak out on life and family comes from “Christ Himself” and “the natural moral law” which the archbishop said “is not the question of a belief of a particular religion, but is part of the patrimony of the whole human race.”

The archbishop acknowledged that speaking the truth was intimidating. “It’s intimidating because we live, as our Holy Father says, in a society of a culture of death where people want to convince us that everything should be convenient and comfortable and they don’t like to hear a voice which says ‘this isn’t right,’” he said.

But with being outspoken on the truth will come persecution, a fact the archbishop is willing not only to acknowledge but to accept. “Bishops will be persecuted,” he said, and “also priests and lay people.”

Even now those proclaiming the truth are called homophobic and hateful. Yet the archbishop explains, “It’s what it means to be a sign of contradiction. We just have to accept that and we have to remain tranquil in proclaiming the truth with charity, but insisting on the truth.”

“If we look to the example of our Lord, we have to take up the cross for the defense of life,” he said.

 

[catholicwife]

jim orr:

The bishop’s reply to my letter of 1-27-05 was written by Vicar General, Fr. Heher in which he said the following:

"Clearly, you have a different take on the situation at Saint John the Baptist School in Costa Mesa than the Bishop of Orange. I am forwarding to you a copy of the letter Bishop Brown sent to Fr. Benzoni, the pastor, which outlines his belief in how Fr. Benzoni and the parish staff were faithful to the current teachings of the Church.

"To be more specific in regard to your concerns:
Are we to punish a child for the orientation of the parents? Do you also believe that the children of hetersexual couples whose marriages are canonically irregular should also be expelled from school? What if a parent is an alcoholic or is in prison for robbery? As long as the parents are willing to abide by the rules of the school, they can apply to send their children to our Catholic schools (see SJB diversity policy enclosed.) At the center of this is a child whom we can educate in our faith.
In the whole course of this controversy, there never was a moment of doubt about the Church’s teaching on sexuality and the sanctity of marriage. The pastor did an excellent job of educating his parishioners. As the Bishop’s letter makes clear, he acted in accord with the most recent Church documents on these matters.

“I am proud to be a Catholic and I know that Bishop Brown is as well. History will judge if Bishop Brown is ‘a spiritual leader who is uplifting.’ I believe he has set the proper course and Fr. Benzoni is following his lead.”

"In the Lord,

“Fr. Mike Heher
Vicar General”

I will be drafting a reply tomorrow. Is the contents in the Vicar General’s letter similar to what you parents at SJB have been getting from the diocese?

P.S. I just noticed a typo in my lead post. In the third line, it should be “conducted” not “conduced.”

And the heresy rolls on … :whacky: :whacky: :whacky: :whacky: :whacky: :whacky: :whacky:

 

[fix]

jim orr:

The bishop’s reply to my letter of 1-27-05 was written by Vicar General, Fr. Heher in which he said the following:

"Clearly, you have a different take on the situation at Saint John the Baptist School in Costa Mesa than the Bishop of Orange. I am forwarding to you a copy of the letter Bishop Brown sent to Fr. Benzoni, the pastor, which outlines his belief in how Fr. Benzoni and the parish staff were faithful to the current teachings of the Church.

"To be more specific in regard to your concerns:
Are we to punish a child for the orientation of the parents? Do you also believe that the children of hetersexual couples whose marriages are canonically irregular should also be expelled from school? What if a parent is an alcoholic or is in prison for robbery? As long as the parents are willing to abide by the rules of the school, they can apply to send their children to our Catholic schools (see SJB diversity policy enclosed.) At the center of this is a child whom we can educate in our faith.
In the whole course of this controversy, there never was a moment of doubt about the Church’s teaching on sexuality and the sanctity of marriage. The pastor did an excellent job of educating his parishioners. As the Bishop’s letter makes clear, he acted in accord with the most recent Church documents on these matters.

“I am proud to be a Catholic and I know that Bishop Brown is as well. History will judge if Bishop Brown is ‘a spiritual leader who is uplifting.’ I believe he has set the proper course and Fr. Benzoni is following his lead.”

"In the Lord,

“Fr. Mike Heher
Vicar General”

I will be drafting a reply tomorrow. Is the contents in the Vicar General’s letter similar to what you parents at SJB have been getting from the diocese?

P.S. I just noticed a typo in my lead post. In the third line, it should be “conducted” not “conduced.”

What a joke. This is the argument he makes? It will only fly with the “social justice” only crowd. Public scandal is public scandal.

 

[sleepless]

This is for Katherine2, SJB and the Diocese of Orange:

Please read the document “The Overhauling of Straight America:Waging Peace Part Two” by
Marshall Kirk and Erastes Pill

It clearly defines the plot we see unfolding at the local catholic school.

Sleepless

 

[fix]

sleepless:

This is for Katherine2, SJB and the Diocese of Orange:

Please read the document “The Overhauling of Straight America:Waging Peace Part Two” by
Marshall Kirk and Erastes Pill

It clearly defines the plot we see unfolding at the local catholic school.

Sleepless

I doubt it would change minds. I am sorry to say, but what as infiltrated the Church is more than a dulled conscience by some in charge. It goes much deeper.

 

[katherine2]

fix:

What a joke. This is the argument he makes? It will only fly with the “social justice” only crowd. Public scandal is public scandal.

So far, its flown with everyone except a small, wack-o fringe of 18 people in the parish.

 

[jim_orr]

Following is the letter from Bishop Brown to Pastor Martin Benzoni of St. John the Baptist Church and School.

10 February 2005

Dear Father Benzoni,

I am writing you to express my appreciation and support for the way you and your staff have conducted yourselves amid the controversy brought about by the revelation that the child of a same-sex couple had been admitted to your parish school.

• Your first concern has always been for the pastoral well-being of all your parishioners, especially those who are enrolled in your parish school and religious education programs. This is clearly evident in the diversity policy of your school.
• While some believe any direct involvement of men and women of homosexual orientation is a threat to the teaching of the Church about the sanctity of sexuality and marriage, you and your staff have treated the adults in question with the “respect, compassion and sensitivity” which is called for in the recent statement of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, “Considerations Regarding Proposals to Give Legal Recognition to Unions Between Homosexual Persons.”
• While some protested that you and I were doing otherwise, you have been steadfast in articulating and following the teachings of the Church on these matters, which I too wholeheartedly affirm, of course. You have even directed your parishioners to internet links that allow them to find and read pertinent Church documents on marriage, sexual ethics, homosexuality and the like, including the document mentioned above.
• To your parishioners and staff you communicated clearly and sensitively what was going on and why you did what you did; through your efforts, many more Catholics are now aware of the Church’s teachings and pastoral practice. You made yourself personally available to any parishioner who had concerns or questions.

I believe the efforts you and your staff have made are exemplary and I support you completely. Christians were first known for the love they had for one another; your love for your parishioners is clear in your pastoral practice and in the way you articulate the teachings of the Catholic Church. May God continue to bless your pastoral ministry.

In the Lord,

Tod David Brown

Bishop of Orange

 

[God_saves]

katherine2:

the voice of hate:

I

Katherine: You seem to be quite an authority on hate. Is that because you practice it so well?

 

[jim_orr]

katherine2

You are the only one using words like “hate” and “hateful” and attribute them to other people’s motives. How can you know that that is their motive? Aren’t you the one being judgmental and being hateful? That is how you are coming across to me.

The people in this topic discussion are trying to understand what is going on and why in the world this has happened. I think it is very clear to any Catholic or other Christian that what is occurring at St John the Baptist School is NOT the will of God being carried out, but the will of something else and they are trying to find a way to undo the evil in that will. You are not helping the situation, but are part of the evil that is occurring. You seem to be an intellgent person; continue if you wish, but be constructive, not destructive if you truly are a faithful Christian who believes in the Creed and the authority of the Pope.

 

[sleepless]

jim orr:

katherine2

You are the only one using words like “hate” and “hateful” and attribute them to other people’s motives. How can you know that that is their motive? Aren’t you the one being judgmental and being hateful? That is how you are coming across to me.

The people in this topic discussion are trying to understand what is going on and why in the world this has happened. I think it is very clear to any Catholic or other Christian that what is occurring at St John the Baptist School is NOT the will of God being carried out, but the will of something else and they are trying to find a way to undo the evil in that will. You are not helping the situation, but are part of the evil that is occurring. You seem to be an intellgent person; continue if you wish, but be constructive, not destructive if you truly are a faithful Christian who believes in the Creed and the authority of the Pope.

 

[sleepless]

jim orr:

katherine2

You are the only one using words like “hate” and “hateful” and attribute them to other people’s motives. How can you know that that is their motive? Aren’t you the one being judgmental and being hateful? That is how you are coming across to me.

The people in this topic discussion are trying to understand what is going on and why in the world this has happened. I think it is very clear to any Catholic or other Christian that what is occurring at St John the Baptist School is NOT the will of God being carried out, but the will of something else and they are trying to find a way to undo the evil in that will. You are not helping the situation, but are part of the evil that is occurring. You seem to be an intellgent person; continue if you wish, but be constructive, not destructive if you truly are a faithful Christian who believes in the Creed and the authority of the Pope.

Amen!!!

Sleepless

 

[catholicwife]

jim orr:

Following is the letter from Bishop Brown to Pastor Martin Benzoni of St. John the Baptist Church and School.

10 February 2005

Dear Father Benzoni,

I am writing you to express my appreciation and support for the way you and your staff have conducted yourselves amid the controversy brought about by the revelation that the child of a same-sex couple had been admitted to your parish school.

• Your first concern has always been for the pastoral well-being of all your parishioners, especially those who are enrolled in your parish school and religious education programs. This is clearly evident in the diversity policy of your school.
• While some believe any direct involvement of men and women of homosexual orientation is a threat to the teaching of the Church about the sanctity of sexuality and marriage, you and your staff have treated the adults in question with the “respect, compassion and sensitivity” which is called for in the recent statement of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, “Considerations Regarding Proposals to Give Legal Recognition to Unions Between Homosexual Persons.”
• While some protested that you and I were doing otherwise, you have been steadfast in articulating and following the teachings of the Church on these matters, which I too wholeheartedly affirm, of course. You have even directed your parishioners to internet links that allow them to find and read pertinent Church documents on marriage, sexual ethics, homosexuality and the like, including the document mentioned above.
• To your parishioners and staff you communicated clearly and sensitively what was going on and why you did what you did; through your efforts, many more Catholics are now aware of the Church’s teachings and pastoral practice. You made yourself personally available to any parishioner who had concerns or questions.

I believe the efforts you and your staff have made are exemplary and I support you completely. Christians were first known for the love they had for one another; your love for your parishioners is clear in your pastoral practice and in the way you articulate the teachings of the Catholic Church. May God continue to bless your pastoral ministry.

In the Lord,

Tod David Brown

Bishop of Orange

Wow. I don’t even what to say. :banghead:

Thanks so much for posting the letter Jim!!! We never received anything from the Bishop, not even an acknowledgement of our concerns.

 

[GloriaPatri4]

jim orr:

Dear Father Benzoni,

I am writing you to express my appreciation and support for the way you and your staff have conducted yourselves

Obviously the bishop doesn’t know about the hatefulness some of the staff has shown toward the people opposed to the situation, specifically the men flaunting their active homosexual lifestyle.
jim orr:
amid the controversy brought about by the revelation that the child of a same-sex couple had been admitted to your parish school.
Not a child but children with two more to come. Doesn’t the bishop read his mail? He doesn’t seem to be informed as to what is going on in his diocese.
jim orr:

• Your first concern has always been for the pastoral well-being of all your parishioners, especially those who are enrolled in your parish school and religious education programs. This is clearly evident in the **diversity **policy of your school.

Diversity, this is something I’m sure the bishop would like to see a lot more of and NO, I’m not talking about different nationalities and faiths.
jim orr:

• While some believe any direct involvement of men and women of homosexual orientation is a threat to the teaching of the Church about the sanctity of sexuality and marriage,

Some believe only men and women of homosexual orientation who act on that orientation example: wear wedding rings, adopt children, membership in Gay Rights organizations and flaunting their lifestyle in front of Catholic school children and families and all of this while volunteering at a Catholic school with children. This is what some believe is a threat to the teaching of the Church about the sanctity of sexuality and marriage. Cardinal Ratzinger and the Holy Father believe this too!!
jim orr:

you and your staff have treated the adults in question with the “respect, compassion and sensitivity” which is called for in the recent statement of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, “Considerations Regarding Proposals to Give Legal Recognition to Unions Between Homosexual Persons.”

**I have a feeling that this was the only part of “Considerations Regarding…” that the bishop read. **

**It would be a good idea if Bishop Brown read this part or the document: ****"**and, above all, to avoid exposing young people to erroneous ideas about sexuality and marriage that would deprive them of their necessary defences and contribute to the spread of the phenomenon."
jim orr:

• While some protested that you and I were doing otherwise, you have been steadfast in articulating and following the teachings of the Church on these matters, which I too wholeheartedly affirm, of course. You have even directed your parishioners to internet links that allow them to find and read pertinent Church documents on marriage, sexual ethics, homosexuality and the like, including the document mentioned above.

**What good are internet links to people who don’t have computers? Many of our elderly and financially disadvantaged parishioners don’t have computers. **

- To your parishioners and staff you communicated clearly and sensitively what was going on and why you did what you did; through your efforts, many more Catholics are now aware of the Church’s teachings and pastoral practice. You made yourself personally available to any parishioner who had concerns or questions.

Not true. Many more people and especially our teenagers are now more confused than ever. There are many reports of students in the school and the confirmation classes being hushed up when the subject of homosexuality is brought up. “We can’t discuss it, it might offend someone”.

- I believe the efforts you and your staff have made are exemplary and I support you completely. Christians were first known for the love they had for one another; your love for your parishioners is clear in your pastoral practice and in the way you articulate the teachings of the Catholic Church. May God continue to bless your pastoral ministry.

In the Lord,

Tod David Brown

Bishop of Orange

**You go, Gay Rights Bishop!! **

 

[God_saves]

jim orr:

The bishop’s reply to my letter of 1-27-05 was written by Vicar General, Fr. Heher in which he said the following:

"Clearly, you have a different take on the situation at Saint John the Baptist School in Costa Mesa than the Bishop of Orange. I am forwarding to you a copy of the letter Bishop Brown sent to Fr. Benzoni, the pastor, which outlines his belief in how Fr. Benzoni and the parish staff were faithful to the current teachings of the Church.

"To be more specific in regard to your concerns:
Are we to punish a child for the orientation of the parents? Do you also believe that the children of hetersexual couples whose marriages are canonically irregular should also be expelled from school? What if a parent is an alcoholic or is in prison for robbery? As long as the parents are willing to abide by the rules of the school, they can apply to send their children to our Catholic schools (see SJB diversity policy enclosed.) At the center of this is a child whom we can educate in our faith.
In the whole course of this controversy, there never was a moment of doubt about the Church’s teaching on sexuality and the sanctity of marriage. The pastor did an excellent job of educating his parishioners. As the Bishop’s letter makes clear, he acted in accord with the most recent Church documents on these matters.

“I am proud to be a Catholic and I know that Bishop Brown is as well. History will judge if Bishop Brown is ‘a spiritual leader who is uplifting.’ I believe he has set the proper course and Fr. Benzoni is following his lead.”

"In the Lord,

“Fr. Mike Heher
Vicar General”

I will be drafting a reply tomorrow. Is the contents in the Vicar General’s letter similar to what you parents at SJB have been getting from the diocese?

P.S. I just noticed a typo in my lead post. In the third line, it should be “conducted” not “conduced.”

Wrong. The pastor, Father Martin Benzoni did not do “an excellent job of educating his parishoners.” On the contrary, his statement and remarks consisted solely of obsfucation, cover-up and damage control. The vast majority of the parishoners and parents have no idea what is going on at the school and if Fr. Benzoni has anything to say about it, they never will.

 

[Steph700]

Wow, this is definitely a heated topic!

I guess my question is… why is it innappropriate for the children to be left unattended with a gay man? This seems out of line to me… I live with a gay man, who also happens to be my best friend, and I would never for a moment hesitate leaving children alone with him. He’s great with kids, loves them.

I’m not saying that I think homosexuality is ok- in fact I am always clear on where I stand with this issue with my best friend or with anyone else who would ask me about it. People are born a certain way and they can’t help it (if they could, believe me they would b/c my best friend would like nothing more than to be physically attracted to women in order that he could live a normal life)- but it is their choice to act on it or not, and that is where sin comes into play. So, please do not get me wrong- I believe being an active homosexual is a sin, period.

BUT, I am also fairly certain there are men and woman teaching in classrooms around the world who are also guilty of sexual sins- does this mean that they should never be left alone with children? No. I only see this kind witch hunt going on when homosexuals are involved. This is exactly why my best friend, and countless other wonderful gay men, are scared to death to enter the Church- because they are labeled as WORSE than other sinners. Give me a break. I often think my best friend has a much better chance of getting into heaven than I do, he’s no worse than me just b/c he has a boyfriend. No, I don’t approve, but the truth is we all have major sin in our life to deal with. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be allowed to be around children.

The homosexuals I have known through the years have been some of the kindest, most loving, wonderful people. And one of the reasons I am so close to my best friend is b/c he is one of the only ones who can understand how terribly I have been treated by my protestant family and friends when I decided to become Catholic, and by my countless conservative family and friends who think I’m evil b/c I don’t worship Bush. He’s experienced the same thing first hand from family and friends when they found out he’s gay. Homosexuals have had enough hardships to deal with without having us add more to their burden.

The only advice I can give to those of you who have had little contact with gay people is to get to know one if there is one in your life. Love them, learn about them as a person. Love is the only thing that is going to change people, love is the only thing that will change your own heart.

 

[Meg2]

Steph700:

I guess my question is… why is it innappropriate for the children to be left unattended with a gay man?

Because many believe, though I do not, that homosexual = pedophile. Personally, if I was to fear someone would molest my child, it would be a heterosexual and not a homosexual (some studies on this).

Steph700:

This is exactly why my best friend, and countless other wonderful gay men, are scared to death to enter the Church- because they are labeled as WORSE than other sinners.

And isn’t this sad? We’re so busy trying to create a “godly” environment, we’re driving some people away that actually WANT to know what God is all about.

Any immediately visible sin, especially a life style sin, is somehow worse in the eyes of many Christians. Murder, aldultery, homosexuality, smoking, gross obesity, swearing. But I see plenty of gossip, backstabbing, hatred (of liberals, conservatives, other denomations), coveting of what others have. That stuff is okay, I guess, because it’s hidden or someone tries to justify it. Yet Jesus says “But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment” and “I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”

So, really, how many of us have committed murder or adultery?
How far will we take our laws? Do we create an environment in our homes, churches, public buildings, in our very government offices, where only saints are let in and all others are excluded?

“Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.” 1 Cor 9:19-23

Steph700:

Love is the only thing that is going to change people, love is the only thing that will change your own heart.

Indeed. We are not justified (saved) by our actions or the law, but by faith, by changed hearts. Only Christ is capable of saving us, and only the Spirit can enter our hearts and affect true change.

Galations 2:16, Galations 3:11, Galations 5:4, Romans 2:29, Romans 10:10, John 3:5

 

[StJeanneDArc]

Meg and Steph,

You both don’t seem to understand that the opposition to these two men is because they are trying to define their sin as unsinful. In other words, they’re openly flaunting their lifestyle and shoving it into the faces of other people and children, saying, in effect, “we are a good, wholesome family just as Godly as any married couple and you better agree with that or you’re being hateful.”