Bishop Brown answers my letter and sends one the same day to SJB pastor, 2-10-05

[StJeanneDArc]

The Church is a hospital for sinners, but before you can be treated at the hospital you have to realize that you’re sick. Imagine going to the ER with a heart attack and telling the medical staff, no treatment please but you must admit me because I like the decor and I really want the room service.

 

[A_Chaoidh]

Lisa4Catholics:

No she will call other people hateful for trying to protect their children from an acceptance of homosexual behavior that could lead them into experimenting ,unrepentant and put their souls in jepardy.Real loving huh?

Lisa,

Well said.

I’m dismayed at how often I find defense of the Faith, Teaching Authority of the Church, etc., is seen as hateful, ignorant and backward. By their actions or lack thereof, this school gives tacit approval to homosexual lifestyles that endangers all children as you rightly point out. Where is the hate in this? Surely I see none.

 

[Lisa_N]

Steph700:

Wow, this is definitely a heated topic!

I guess my question is… why is it innappropriate for the children to be left unattended with a gay man? This seems out of line to me… I live with a gay man, who also happens to be my best friend, and I would never for a moment hesitate leaving children alone with him. He’s great with kids, loves them…

Because this is a CATHOLIC school and supposedly the children are there to learn about CATHOLIC family life. Having children see two homosexuals aping a normal marital relationship is confusing at best.

As to leaving a child with a homosexual, you are talking apples and oranges. You know and trust this man. You feel safe leaving your child with him (assuming you have children). OTOH that is not the same as asking parents to accept a homosexual man that they don’t know to have authority over their children. Why should they?

Steph700:

I’m not saying that I think homosexuality is ok- in fact I am always clear on where I stand with this issue with my best friend or with anyone else who would ask me about it. People are born a certain way.

Sorry but you’ve swallowed the party line with no proof. In spite of numerous studies, no one has provided any proof that people are born homosexual. None. There may be a genetic component but that is also nearly impossible to prove. Your friend is homosexual for a reason. But not because he was born that way.

Steph700:

BUT, I am also fairly certain there are men and woman teaching in classrooms around the world who are also guilty of sexual sins- does this mean that they should never be left alone with children? No. I only see this kind witch hunt going on when homosexuals are involved. .

No it would not be an issue if the sin were public as in this case. If a flagrant adulterer insisted on bringing his twinkie to school and passing her off as his wife I believe the reaction would be the same.

Steph700:

This is exactly why my best friend, and countless other wonderful gay men, are scared to death to enter the Church- because they are labeled as WORSE than other sinners.

Really? Your church has a Gadar Machine that stops them at the door? Come on. How would someone KNOW your friend is a homosexual? How would he be labelled?

Steph700:

The only advice I can give to those of you who have had little contact with gay people is to get to know one if there is one in your life. Love them, learn about them as a person. Love is the only thing that is going to change people, love is the only thing that will change your own heart.

Steph being homosexual does not confer sainthood. I know a lot of homosexuals. Yes some of them are very nice. One of my best friends is homosexual and although I am sorry he made this choice it doesn’t make him evil incarnate. OTOH I know other homosexuals who are really nasty, immoral, awful people. Their sexuality is frankly irrelevant to whether or not they are ‘nice’.

Lisa N

 

[jim_orr]

My reply to Fr. Heher, the Vicar General, with a cc to Bishop Brown went out in the mail today. They should get it tomorrow. I’ll let you know if I get a reply back. I should because he certainly left a lot of openings for me to go back at him as some of you have already hit upon.

 

[God_saves]

jim orr:

My reply to Fr. Heher, the Vicar General, with a cc to Bishop Brown went out in the mail today. They should get it tomorrow. I’ll let you know if I get a reply back. I should because he certainly left a lot of openings for me to go back at him as some of you have already hit upon.

Jim,

Will you post your reply to Fr. Heher? Thank you for writing and doing what some of us, myself included, have not yet found the courage to do. Please pray for the protection of our innocent children

God saves, (if we allow Him)

 

[Steph700]

Meg2:

Because many believe, though I do not, that homosexual = pedophile. Personally, if I was to fear someone would molest my child, it would be a heterosexual and not a homosexual (some studies on this).

And isn’t this sad? We’re so busy trying to create a “godly” environment, we’re driving some people away that actually WANT to know what God is all about.

Any immediately visible sin, especially a life style sin, is somehow worse in the eyes of many Christians. Murder, aldultery, homosexuality, smoking, gross obesity, swearing. But I see plenty of gossip, backstabbing, hatred (of liberals, conservatives, other denomations), coveting of what others have. That stuff is okay, I guess, because it’s hidden or someone tries to justify it. Yet Jesus says “But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment” and “I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”

So, really, how many of us have committed murder or adultery?
How far will we take our laws? Do we create an environment in our homes, churches, public buildings, in our very government offices, where only saints are let in and all others are excluded?

“Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.” 1 Cor 9:19-23

Indeed. We are not justified (saved) by our actions or the law, but by faith, by changed hearts. Only Christ is capable of saving us, and only the Spirit can enter our hearts and affect true change.

Galations 2:16, Galations 3:11, Galations 5:4, Romans 2:29, Romans 10:10, John 3:5

Good verses, Meg. You seem to have hit the nail on the head.

 

[sleepless]

jim orr:

The bishop’s reply to my letter of 1-27-05 was written by Vicar General, Fr. Heher in which he said the following:

"Clearly, you have a different take on the situation at Saint John the Baptist School in Costa Mesa than the Bishop of Orange. I am forwarding to you a copy of the letter Bishop Brown sent to Fr. Benzoni, the pastor, which outlines his belief in how Fr. Benzoni and the parish staff were faithful to the current teachings of the Church.

"To be more specific in regard to your concerns:
Are we to punish a child for the orientation of the parents? Do you also believe that the children of hetersexual couples whose marriages are canonically irregular should also be expelled from school? What if a parent is an alcoholic or is in prison for robbery? As long as the parents are willing to abide by the rules of the school, they can apply to send their children to our Catholic schools (see SJB diversity policy enclosed.) At the center of this is a child whom we can educate in our faith.
In the whole course of this controversy, there never was a moment of doubt about the Church’s teaching on sexuality and the sanctity of marriage. The pastor did an excellent job of educating his parishioners. As the Bishop’s letter makes clear, he acted in accord with the most recent Church documents on these matters.

“I am proud to be a Catholic and I know that Bishop Brown is as well. History will judge if Bishop Brown is ‘a spiritual leader who is uplifting.’ I believe he has set the proper course and Fr. Benzoni is following his lead.”

"In the Lord,

“Fr. Mike Heher
Vicar General”

I will be drafting a reply tomorrow. Is the contents in the Vicar General’s letter similar to what you parents at SJB have been getting from the diocese?

P.S. I just noticed a typo in my lead post. In the third line, it should be “conducted” not “conduced.”

The problem here is that the Pastor has not addressed the teachings of the Church directly to the male same sex couple–the proof being in that they consistantly show up on campus almost every morning for school morning prayer together. This is setting an example to the rest of the student body that their relationship as open homosexuals is acceptable to the school staff, faculty and parish priets. At least that’s how it appears to me. The enrollment of their adopted kids should have been precluded by an outline of acceptable behavior. This “Diversity Policy” has been introduced after the fact and now it is a difficult subject for the Pastor to address.

Sleepless

 

[fix]

StJeanneDArc:

Meg and Steph,

You both don’t seem to understand that the opposition to these two men is because they are trying to define their sin as unsinful. In other words, they’re openly flaunting their lifestyle and shoving it into the faces of other people and children, saying, in effect, “we are a good, wholesome family just as Godly as any married couple and you better agree with that or you’re being hateful.”

Today, the few and the many, seem to not grasp the magnitude of scandal. Scandal is a sin. It may lead others astray. It may weaken the faith. Public display of sodomistic relationships as virtuous is beyond contempt.

 

[jim_orr]

God saves:

Jim,Will you post your reply to Fr. Heher?

I will, but I prefer to give him an opportunity to respond, first.

My first letter to the bishop on this issue was somewhat of a “shot across the bow.” I posted it as an example of how, at least, this one Catholic felt about the situation and the bishop’s handling of it. I wasn’t sure that he would send a serious reply, but since he has I tend to respect the time for privacy to allow the dialogue to continue and see where it leads.

As information is conveyed that I think is newsworthy, as it was in this case with the bishop’s letter to the pastor of St. John the Baptist Church sent along with the Vicar General’s reply to me on behalf of the bishop, both dated the same day, I wanted to let the parents and parishioners at SJB School that are on this message board know that I received a reply. I also wanted to find out if they were aware of the bishop’s letter to their pastor. I was surprised to learn that the pastor had not made it public, yet. It may have been that it was just a day or two old. In any case, I decided to post the bishop’s letter for their benefit,

As a sidebar, what were the circumstances that brought your new pastor to SBJ? What happen to Hanson? And do you know where Fr Hopping is?

 

[God_saves]

fix:

Today, the few and the many, seem to not grasp the magnitude of scandal. Scandal is a sin. It may lead others astray. It may weaken the faith. Public display of sodomistic relationships as virtuous is beyond contempt.

Dear Fix,

Thank you so much for your insightful comment. Unfortunately, this is a concept that has escaped St. John the Baptist Church Pastor, School Principal, staff and many parents. Or if it has not, they refuse to recognize it out of some misguided sense of compassion for the two men and at the same time, also fail to recognize the harm being done to the “couple’s” adopted children by exposing them to this same scandal. Please pray that God’s Holy Will be done and that their minds and those of the two men, slaves of sin at the center of the scandal, will be enlightened and their hearts changed.

God saves

 

[God_saves]

jim orr:

I will, but I prefer to give him an opportunity to respond, first.

My first letter to the bishop on this issue was somewhat of a “shot across the bow.” I posted it as an example of how, at least, this one Catholic felt about the situation and the bishop’s handling of it. I wasn’t sure that he would send a serious reply, but since he has I tend to respect the time for privacy to allow the dialogue to continue and see where it leads.

As information is conveyed that I think is newsworthy, as it was in this case with the bishop’s letter to the pastor of St. John the Baptist Church sent along with the Vicar General’s reply to me on behalf of the bishop, both dated the same day, I wanted to let the parents and parishioners at SJB School that are on this message board know that I received a reply. I also wanted to find out if they were aware of the bishop’s letter to their pastor. I was surprised to learn that the pastor had not made it public, yet. It may have been that it was just a day or two old. In any case, I decided to post the bishop’s letter for their benefit,

As a sidebar, what were the circumstances that brought your new pastor to SBJ? What happen to Hanson? And do you know where Fr Hopping is?

Jim,

I do not know what brought Fr. Benzoni and the other Norbertine priests to SJB. I followed them there because I thought they would make it a holy place. Needless to say I feel betrayed. I only know that the four Norbertine priests who came to SJB had each spent four years in different parishes to learn how to be parish priests. I was not in the parish when the two priests you ask about were there. I do know that a priest, whose name is unknown to me, was removed because of alleged sexual abuse. I would submit that this parish has had more than its share of grief.

God saves

 

[fix]

We can’t forget the basis for this probelm is the state allowing same sex couples to adopt children. The Church is to evangelize the culture, not the reverse, which seems to be what is happening here.

 

[God_saves]

fix:

We can’t forget the basis for this probelm is the state allowing same sex couples to adopt children. The Church is to evangelize the culture, not the reverse, which seems to be what is happening here.

Bingo!! That is exactly right and it is intendend, systematic and approved by the Bishop no less.

God Saves

 

[God_saves]

fix:

We can’t forget the basis for this probelm is the state allowing same sex couples to adopt children. The Church is to evangelize the culture, not the reverse, which seems to be what is happening here.

Bingo!! That is exactly right and it is intended, systematic and approved by the Bishop no less.

God Saves

 

[fix]

God saves:

Bingo!! That is exactly right and it is intendend, systematic and approved by the Bishop no less.

God Saves

I hate to say it aloud, but the nuancing of much of this homosexual stuff by so many in the Church has to lead one to question why so much of it? Is it false compassion? Is it poor formation? Is it secularism? Is that some have more than an academic interest in promoting the changing of the moral law?

 

[God_saves]

fix:

We can’t forget the basis for this probelm is the state allowing same sex couples to adopt children. The Church is to evangelize the culture, not the reverse, which seems to be what is happening here.

Bingo!! That is exactly right and it is intended, systematic and approved by the Bishop no less.

God Saves

 

[God_saves]

fix:

I hate to say it aloud, but the nuancing of much of this homosexual stuff by so many in the Church has to lead one to question why so much of it? Is it false compassion? Is it poor formation? Is it secularism? Is that some have more than an academic interest in promoting the changing of the moral law?

All of the above and I would highlight what you say about some having more than an academic interest in promoting the changing of the moral law. The unfortunate fact is that the homosexual lobby, (both within and without the Church) by framing themselves as victims, has been successful in desensitizing everyone to homosexuality and indeed, homosexual acts themselves. This has been going on for decades with the help of the media. Most good people sympathize with victims, which helps explain why this strategy has has been so effective.

The Church makes it clear there can be no UNJUST discrimination against persons with same sex attraction. There can, however, be JUST discrimination. One example would be refusing to allow adoptions by same-sex couples and denying marriage or even the benefits of marriage to so-called civil unions. The Church has also made this clear in some of her documents on the subject.

Poor formation is another biggie. People do not know their faith. Why? They have not heard it. Schools have not taught it and the clergy has not preached it. Even if they know Church teaching on various moral issues, many reject them. What they do not know is that the Church is the Body of Christ, and Christ is the head. It is not possible to sever the Body, the Church, from the head, Christ. Christ can’t be separated.

Christ said to Peter “thou art Peter and on this rock, I build my Church.” There is only one Rock, Jesus. Thus when He built HIS Church on Peter (Peter means rock) Jesus built the Church on His own authority which He vested in Peter. Therefore, when one rejects Church teaching, he rejects Christ. These thoughts are not my own but I embrace them. I learned them from a very holy priest.

“When the Son of Man returns will he find faith?”

God Saves

 

[GloriaPatri4]

sleepless:

The problem here is that the Pastor has not addressed the teachings of the Church directly to the male same sex couple–the proof being in that they consistantly show up on campus almost every morning for school morning prayer together. This is setting an example to the rest of the student body that their relationship as open homosexuals is acceptable to the school staff, faculty and parish priets. At least that’s how it appears to me. The enrollment of their adopted kids should have been precluded by an outline of acceptable behavior. This “Diversity Policy” has been introduced after the fact and now it is a difficult subject for the Pastor to address.

Sleepless

I would like to point out that the entire school body is present for morning prayers along with the faculty and forty to fifty parents. The school principal usually leads the morning prayers and everyone is gathered in circle. The two men attend morning prayers as a couple. and they are usually standing near the front so they are very visible for all to see.

Someone mentioned on this thread that others (hetrosexuals) have sexual sins and yes, this is true but how many heterosexuals do we know that are in the habit of flaunting their sexual sins on a school campus? It is very unlikely that a man or woman having a extra marital affair would bring his or her lover to their children’s Catholic school morning prayers, volunteer in the classroom or be the school webmaster. I would venture to say if a married school parent was having an affair and they dared to bring his or her lover on SJB school campus the church and school administration would be quick to act on it. I don’t know why they can’t seem to act on this situation I suppose it’s because they think “homosexuals are born that way, they can’t help it”.

 

[Lance]

katherine2:

the voice of hate:

I

If there is anything katherine2 knows about it is hate. Be careful in disagreeing with her. She will slander your mother and tell you that she and her 2 sons will meet you anywhere anytime. The implacation was very clear to me, when she made this in another thread. It is best to ignore her and hope she either becomes a true Catholic or goes away.

 

[HumbleSinner]

Lance:

If there is anything katherine2 knows about it is hate. Be careful in disagreeing with her. She will slander your mother and tell you that she and her 2 sons will meet you anywhere anytime. The implacation was very clear to me, when she made this in another thread. It is best to ignore her and hope she either becomes a true Catholic or goes away.

I know I’ve read her posts. She can be very mean. We just need to pray for her. That part about her and her sons meeting you anytime anywhere that sounds like a threat. If I were you I would report that to a moderator. When members post threatening comments I think they need to be suspended for a while.