Bishop Brown answers my letter and sends one the same day to SJB pastor, 2-10-05

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GloriaPatri4:
but how many heterosexuals do we know that are in the habit of flaunting their sexual sins on a school campus? It is very unlikely that a man or woman having a extra marital affair would bring his or her lover to their children’s Catholic school morning prayers, volunteer in the classroom or be the school webmaster.
This begs the question, are “visibile” sins somehow worse than “nonvisible” sins? I don’t see how this can be used as a justification to treat people differently. God knows your heart (and everyone’s heart).

I can’t imagine how this couple could be completely NOT visible…how could they both participate in their children’s education as a family if one always had to stay home so they weren’t flaunting their homosexual relationship.

But several are arguing that because they are openly displaying their relationship, the situaiton needs to be dealt with. Seems this all boils down to having to instate a rule that homosexual parents cannot enroll their children in this school. What other solution is there, apart from a change in both their hearts and abandoning their current and any future homosexual relationship?
 
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fix:
Today, the few and the many, seem to not grasp the magnitude of scandal. Scandal is a sin. It may lead others astray. It may weaken the faith. Public display of sodomistic relationships as virtuous is beyond contempt.
Scandalous behavior isn’t always sinful. Wouldn’t Jesus’ behavior, in the eyes of many in his time, be seen as scandalous? But **we **certainly don’t see it as scandalous.

What I’m trying to get at…the point isn’t to avoid scandalous behavior, to create an environment that is somehow comfortable to us, as Christians. It’s to lead people to Christ, salvation and a new life in Christ. If my only goal is to avoid scandal or those who are scandalous, my life will be a life of inaction where I push people away.
 
Hmmm, I don’t know that it boils down to a rule about not allowing homosexual “parents” to enroll a child in Catholic school.

That slant seems to argue that anybody has a “right” to enroll his or her child in a Catholic school, and that the child MUST be accepted, willy-nilly.

A private school is a private school, and as such can accept, or reject, potential students based on criteria of its choice.

That is part of “freedom”. . .a commodity that this culture and society appears to value. The price of the ability to accept is the corollary ability to reject as well.

Sadly, this situation has been coopted by many who are going solely on emotionalism, feelings, anger against “discrimination”, etc. Focusing solely on “love”. . .but only a narrow version of it. . .they argue that it “doesn’t matter” that the many suffer, but only that the “few” are “protected”. Frankly, the “few” have more protections than the many as it is, especially when it comes to “sexual orientation” today, and while they demand ever increasing “rights” it appears that they wish few, if any “responsibilities” to go along with them.

Any parent has responsibilities in raising a child. This couple appears to wish to exercise every “right” but abrogate every responsibility. A responsible Catholic parent has the right and responsibility to forment and to practice authentic Catholicism. That some, even many, “heterosexual” parents fall short in this is no reason to allow homosexual parents a “bye” as well.

This is the same pseudo-reasoning that is brought up re same-sex marriage, i.e. “Heterosexual divorce rates are so high, homosexual divorce rates couldn’t be any higher, so why not allow homosexual marriage since heterosexuals don’t seem to do that great a job?”

Apples and oranges.
 
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StJeanneDArc:
The Church is a hospital for sinners, but before you can be treated at the hospital you have to realize that you’re sick. Imagine going to the ER with a heart attack and telling the medical staff, no treatment please but you must admit me because I like the decor and I really want the room service.
This is a great analogy. I see the point you are trying to make.

There were many people who literally followed and walked with Jesus but did not accept Jesus. (I think of the rich man would followed all the laws, but would not sell everything owned, really meaning he wouldn’t share his wealth.) Jesus did not turn Him away. He had a word even for this man, and Jesus certainly knew his heart and the decision he would make.

In your analogy, only people who are willing to accept Jesus’ healing can hang out in the hospital. No one else can come in.

Why would someone ever want to enter the hospital if they can’t hear Jesus’ words, see his healing, see demonstration of His love?
 
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Meg2:
Scandalous behavior isn’t always sinful. Wouldn’t Jesus’ behavior, in the eyes of many in his time, be seen as scandalous? But **we **certainly don’t see it as scandalous.

What I’m trying to get at…the point isn’t to avoid scandalous behavior, to create an environment that is somehow comfortable to us, as Christians. It’s to lead people to Christ, salvation and a new life in Christ. If my only goal is to avoid scandal or those who are scandalous, my life will be a life of inaction where I push people away.
Meg2, I don’t think you really understand the meaning of scandal in the present context. The Catholic understanding of scandal is that which has the possibility of leading others into sin. That is always a sin. Jesus spoke to it when he said “Things that cause sin will inevitably occur, but woe to the person through whom they occur. It would be better for him if a millstone were put around his neck and he be thrown into the sea than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin.” Lk 17:1-2. This is not abut creating “an enviornment that is somehow comfortable to us” it is about protecting children from viewing a sinful lifestyle, a gross caricature of marriage and family and concluding it is ok because their school condones it. Even if they are taught otherwise, and told the truth that a homosexual lifestyle is a grave sin, children learn best by example. “Do as I say, not as I do” has never worked. By allowing these two men to parade around as a couple and heads of a “family” they become role models. That is what is meant as scandal. God bless you for your good intentions.

God Saves
 
Tantum ergo:
Hmmm, I don’t know that it boils down to a rule about not allowing homosexual “parents” to enroll a child in Catholic school.

That slant seems to argue that anybody has a “right” to enroll his or her child in a Catholic school, and that the child MUST be accepted, willy-nilly.

A private school is a private school, and as such can accept, or reject, potential students based on criteria of its choice.
Good points. I think we actually agree. A private school (or other group for that matter) does have a right to establish its own criteria for membership. If a school feels that all parents must try to be an example of God’s view for marriage (in part, not homosexual), then I don’t see how that school can do anything but exclude children that have homosexual parents.

I’m not throwing that out as an accusation. It just seems there is not a compromise.
Tantum ergo:
That is part of “freedom”. . .a commodity that this culture and society appears to value.

Sadly, this situation has been coopted by many who are going solely on emotionalism, feelings, anger against “discrimination”, etc.
What God requires of us will never fully jive with the laws established by our earthly governments. In general, laws against discrimination are good, but it can force people or churches to accept things that are against their established morals. (I would love it if half the junk from my satellite tv wasn’t even offered, but freedom of speech, yadda, yadda, yadda.)
Tantum ergo:
That some, even many, “heterosexual” parents fall short in this is no reason to allow homosexual parents a “bye” as well.

This is the same pseudo-reasoning that is brought up re same-sex marriage, i.e. “Heterosexual divorce rates are so high, homosexual divorce rates couldn’t be any higher, so why not allow homosexual marriage since heterosexuals don’t seem to do that great a job?”
I agree with you. We cannot lower our standards simply because our culture (and, unfortuately, many Christians) does. These are very wierd arguments.
 
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Meg2:
But several are arguing that because they are openly displaying their relationship, the situaiton needs to be dealt with. Seems this all boils down to having to instate a rule that homosexual parents cannot enroll their children in this school. What other solution is there, apart from a change in both their hearts and abandoning their current and any future homosexual relationship?
Meg2, for starters, what obligation does the Church have to the parents of the 500 children already attending the school? Any? If the government moves a pedophile into your neighborhood after being released from prison, are you, a parent of small children, going to say that is OK, he or she has a right to live wherever they want and the neighborhood has nothing to say about it?

Let’s assume the two “fathers” are sleeping in separate rooms, does that change the attituted of anybody on this board? It does me because it indicates that their same sex attraction is not so compelling that it jeopardizes their spiritual, Catholic faith. It could be that they may be living celibate lives together like a couple priests. In this case, the School’s enrollment of the two adopted boys makes sense and the Church can benefit by their enrollment, especially if the men allow themselves to speak to the parents and parish on how their faith enables them to live celibate lives together. In this case, their story can be helpful and encouraging to others in avoiding committing sex sins, or other kinds of sins, in their lives.

But what if they are sleeping in separate rooms because one snores so loudly that the other can’t get sleep? Then it doesn’t matter that they are sleeping in separate rooms, their attraction for each other may cause them to still engage in sinful behavior as defined by the Church. Their mere presence among the heterosexual parish community causes disharmony because they are in disharmony with the Church and its teachings, and it is visible and they do not care. That would be like a car driver always runnig red lights and the police just sit there on the corner and do nothing. But the real disturbing thing is that the pastor and the bishop have opted to create the disharmoney among the heterosexual parish, just as the government does when they release a pediphile to live in a particular neighborhood community and insist on keeping them there regardless of the concerns of the parents whose neighborhood has become a threat to their peace and safety. In the case of St. John the Baptist School, the threat is to the spiritual safety of the children, and to their innocence. Once that is lost, all Hell can break lose in the lives of the parents of those children, and in the lives of the children, themselves. And that is irresponsibe of Pastor Benzoni, and more importantly, Bishop Brown in their pastoral obligations to the Church and the people.

But lets look at one other possibility the pastor and bishop could have utilized. They could have let the “fathers” enroll the young boys in a CCD classes on condition that the “fathers” receive counseling on their sinful life style in effort to work towards a behavior that would enable them to live fully within the embrace of the Church. Why should the pastor and the bishop, representing the Church, be the ones closing their eyes to the situation of sin in their midst?

The pastor and bishop have shirked their responsibilities as pastor and shepherd in this situation for reasons that are not justifiable on their surface. This means that there is another reason that this has been allowed to happen which can only be worldliness and confusion within the minds of the pastor and bishop, but primarily the bishop, who has endorsed this, as those who know this bishop had warned years ago when he was assigned here.

This also raises the question as to why Rome would move such a man to consevative Orange County, let alone, why they would even keep him a bishop. Is this evidence that the Church leadership hasn’t learned anything from their shuffling sex abusing priest and bishops around rather than addressing the issue? Is this evidence that there is a homosexual cabal at the highest levels in the Vatican?
 
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Meg2:
Scandalous behavior isn’t always sinful. Wouldn’t Jesus’ behavior, in the eyes of many in his time, be seen as scandalous? But **we **certainly don’t see it as scandalous.

What I’m trying to get at…the point isn’t to avoid scandalous behavior, to create an environment that is somehow comfortable to us, as Christians. It’s to lead people to Christ, salvation and a new life in Christ. If my only goal is to avoid scandal or those who are scandalous, my life will be a life of inaction where I push people away.
**2284 **Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil. The person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor’s tempter. He damages virtue and integrity; he may even draw his brother into spiritual death. Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense.

**2285 **Scandal takes on a particular gravity by reason of the authority of those who cause it or the weakness of those who are scandalized. It prompted our Lord to utter this curse: “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.” Scandal is grave when given by those who by nature or office are obliged to teach and educate others. Jesus reproaches the scribes and Pharisees on this account: he likens them to wolves in sheep’s clothing.

**2326 **Scandal is a grave offense when by deed or omission it deliberately leads others to sin gravely.
 
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Meg2:
There were many people who literally followed and walked with Jesus but did not accept Jesus. (I think of the rich man would followed all the laws, but would not sell everything owned, really meaning he wouldn’t share his wealth.) Jesus did not turn Him away. He had a word even for this man, and Jesus certainly knew his heart and the decision he would make.
I have a different take on this story (Mk 10: 17-31) than yours. The Rich Man loved himself and identifyed who he was with his wealth. He could not go and sell all that he had and give the money to the poor because then he would lose himself, his identity. And that was too much of a price to pay to “inherit eternal life.”

This story has meaning for the two “fathers” in this case, and for the concerned Catholic, as well. Their love for themselves as who they are, as homosexuals, is greater than their desire to"inherit eternal life." Unlike Jesus, who new what the Rich Man was after, greater glorification of himself, Bishop Brown and Pastor Benzoni are acting as though the intentions of the two men are honorable and that the school and diocese are just complying with it by showing “the love of Jesus” for the men and their adopted twins, when in fact, something more sinister is at work, of which they are apart.
 
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Meg2:
This begs the question, are “visibile” sins somehow worse than “nonvisible” sins? I don’t see how this can be used as a justification to treat people differently. God knows your heart (and everyone’s heart).

I can’t imagine how this couple could be completely NOT visible…how could they both participate in their children’s education as a family if one always had to stay home so they weren’t flaunting their homosexual relationship.

But several are arguing that because they are openly displaying their relationship, the situaiton needs to be dealt with. Seems this all boils down to having to instate a rule that homosexual parents cannot enroll their children in this school. What other solution is there, apart from a change in both their hearts and abandoning their current and any future homosexual relationship?
Dear Meg,

Please read the threads regarding the issue at St. John the Baptist. These were posted in the Ask an Apologist forum. Father Vincent Serpa answered the questions. Click on the links below to read.

Should active homosexuals be permitted to flaunt their lifestyle at a CatholicSchool?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=37304

Should parents send their children to a party in a gay household?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=448039#post448039
 
fix said:
**2284 **Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil. The person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor’s tempter. He damages virtue and integrity; he may even draw his brother into spiritual death. Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense.

**2285 **Scandal takes on a particular gravity by reason of the authority of those who cause it or the weakness of those who are scandalized. It prompted our Lord to utter this curse: “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.” Scandal is grave when given by those who by nature or office are obliged to teach and educate others. Jesus reproaches the scribes and Pharisees on this account: he likens them to wolves in sheep’s clothing.

**2326 **Scandal is a grave offense when by deed or omission it deliberately leads others to sin gravely.

Fix,

Wow, you did a much better job of defining scandal than I did. Looks like you went straight to the Catechism. Good job. That is the reason I am responding; your post deserves repeating. The sentence in Section 2285 that speaks to the weakness of those who are scandalized is particularly pertinent to the situaton at SJB where impressionable and vulnerable childen are exposed to a situation that seems to equate same sex-unions, and “families” headed by them, with heterosexual marriage and families. This applies equally to the adopted children of the two men and to the other children at the school.

I’m bookmarking those CCC citations in my catechism right now.

God saves
 
jim orr:
I have a different take on this story (Mk 10: 17-31) than yours. The Rich Man loved himself and identifyed who he was with his wealth. He could not go and sell all that he had and give the money to the poor because then he would lose himself, his identity. And that was too much of a price to pay to “inherit eternal life.”

This story has meaning for the two “fathers” in this case, and for the concerned Catholic, as well. Their love for themselves as who they are, as homosexuals, is greater than their desire to"inherit eternal life." Unlike Jesus, who new what the Rich Man was after, greater glorification of himself, Bishop Brown and Pastor Benzoni are acting as though the intentions of the two men are honorable and that the school and diocese are just complying with it by showing “the love of Jesus” for the men and their adopted twins, when in fact, something more sinister is at work, of which they are apart.
There certainly is something “sinister” at work. Satan’s handprint is all over it. The two men are slaves of sin. Instead of being helped and told the truth, which is true love and compassion, they are in fact being confirmed in their lifestyle. Fr. Benzoni, Fr. Horan and Bishop Brown can pat themselves on the back, proclaiming how pastoral they are, in their particular spin on Church teaching, until Hell freezes over. That doesn’t make it true. It is nothing more that clanging cymbals.

God knows and

God saves
 
God saves:
Fix,

Wow, you did a much better job of defining scandal than I did. Looks like you went straight to the Catechism. Good job. That is the reason I am responding; your post deserves repeating. The sentence in Section 2285 that speaks to the weakness of those who are scandalized is particularly pertinent to the situaton at SJB where impressionable and vulnerable childen are exposed to a situation that seems to equate same sex-unions, and “families” headed by them, with heterosexual marriage and families. This applies equally to the adopted children of the two men and to the other children at the school.

I’m bookmarking those CCC citations in my catechism right now.

God saves
IMO, today we fail to appreciate the importance of immortal souls. We are overly pragmatic and much too secular in our reasoning. That so many are not shocked and revolted by homosexuals adopting children and acting as if they were married is beyond my comprehension. We have taken leave of our senses, or we have dulled our consciences to the truth through unrepentent sin. Just my opinion.
 
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fix:
IMO, today we fail to appreciate the importance of immortal souls. We are overly pragmatic and much too secular in our reasoning. That so many are not shocked and revolted by homosexuals adopting children and acting as if they were married is beyond my comprehension. We have taken leave of our senses, or we have dulled our consciences to the truth through unrepentent sin. Just my opinion.
Not just your opinion but absolutely true! 👍
 
God saves:
Meg2, I don’t think you really understand the meaning of scandal in the present context. The Catholic understanding of scandal is that which has the possibility of leading others into sin.

…This is not abut creating “an enviornment that is somehow comfortable to us” it is about protecting children from viewing a sinful lifestyle, a gross caricature of marriage and family and concluding it is ok because their school condones it. Even if they are taught otherwise, and told the truth that a homosexual lifestyle is a grave sin, children learn best by example. “Do as I say, not as I do” has never worked.
The distinction I was trying to make was that sometimes sinful behavior can lead others to sin (hmmm…seems like it always would, actually). And other times, people are so embarrassed, so scandalized by someone’s sinful behavior, that that becomes the scandal. I think of a family with a good reputation that find out their publicly pure-as-the-driven-snow daughter becomes pregnant out-of-wedlock. If the parents reject their daughter, or worse yet, force her to get an abortion, where is the true source of the scandal – the daughter getting pregnant, or the parents not being able to admit their daughter is capable of sin just like everybody else?

I fear that sometimes Christians get so wrapped up in banishing the sin or sinner, making their own little world look good, that they forget that behind the sinful behavior is someone who doesn’t know Christ, doesn’t know how their heart, their life can be changed. I don’t want the goal to be to create a school that doesn’t have same-sex parents. I want the goal to be bringing the good news to all people (nations), and affecting change in their hearts and lives.

Don’t know if that makes any sense.
God saves:
God bless you for your good intentions.
Thank you for your kind words. 🙂
 
jim orr:
Meg2, for starters, what obligation does the Church have to the parents of the 500 children already attending the school? Any? If the government moves a pedophile into your neighborhood after being released from prison, are you, a parent of small children, going to say that is OK, he or she has a right to live wherever they want and the neighborhood has nothing to say about it?
These are great points. The Church does have obligations to all the parents and the children. And I wouldn’t be happy if a pedophile moved into my neighborhood. But there’s the conflict… As I Christian, how do I balance “loving my neighbor as myself” and protecting my children?

The pedophile example is really a hard one. I could demand that the person not be allowed in my neighborhood, but they have to go somewhere. And if enough communities fight it, pedophiles wind up living in the same community and can encourage the behavior in each other all over again. We need more creative ways of dealing with these kinds of situations, not just, “Not in my backyard.”
jim orr:
It could be that they may be living celibate lives together like a couple priests. In this case, the School’s enrollment of the two adopted boys makes sense and the Church can benefit by their enrollment,
I see the distinction you are making, but I don’t see how being celibate makes a homosexual relationship okay. A romantic-love relationship is more than physical, it’s emotional as well. And God knows your heart and your desires.
 
jim orr:
I have a different take on this story (Mk 10: 17-31) than yours. The Rich Man loved himself and identifyed who he was with his wealth. He could not go and sell all that he had and give the money to the poor because then he would lose himself, his identity. And that was too much of a price to pay to “inherit eternal life.”
Good stuff. Hadn’t heard this take before.
jim orr:
Bishop Brown and Pastor Benzoni are acting as though the intentions of the two men are honorable and that the school and diocese are just complying with it by showing “the love of Jesus” for the men and their adopted twins, when in fact, something more sinister is at work, of which they are apart.
I agree that the intentions of the two men are not honorable in God’s eyes. Yet there is a challenge in recognizing that, and showing “the love of Jesus” at the same time.
 
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Meg2:
These are great points. The Church does have obligations to all the parents and the children. And I wouldn’t be happy if a pedophile moved into my neighborhood. But there’s the conflict… As I Christian, how do I balance “loving my neighbor as myself” and protecting my children?

The pedophile example is really a hard one. I could demand that the person not be allowed in my neighborhood, but they have to go somewhere. And if enough communities fight it, pedophiles wind up living in the same community and can encourage the behavior in each other all over again. We need more creative ways of dealing with these kinds of situations, not just, “Not in my backyard.”

.
Again good thoughts but reality needs to be considered. Pedophiles are almost IMPOSSIBLE to cure. There is a huge difference between allowing a felon who’s paid his dues and who is on the road to living a productive life and allowing a pedophile to live in or frequent an area with children present.

Far as I’m concerned, the pedophile has given up his right to live anywhere in society that he wishes. The rights of the children to be safe override the rights of the pedophile. Without evidence that there is effective treatment I believe these folks should be monitored if out in public.

You know the saying is love your neighbor AS YOURSELF. It is not self love to allow danger to enter your home.

Lisa N
 
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