Bishop says Notre Dame is wrong to honor Joe Biden

[Path_Finder]

Some states would outlaw abortion and the Constitution allows for that. It’s pretty tired to have to talk to defenses of abortion wherever it may occur.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Some states would outlaw abortion and the Constitution allows for that. It’s pretty tired to have to talk to defenses of abortion wherever it may occur.

The SCOTUS already has ruled that states can not outlaw all abortion.

Again, write a law that bans all abortions and include what penalty women who obtain abortions, will have to receive.

Jim

 

[Path_Finder]

Slavery was pretty rock solid too; and a civil war was fought where 600,000 Americans lost their lives.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

The SCOTUS already has ruled that states can not outlaw all abortion.

Again, write a law that bans all abortions and include what penalty women who obtain abortions, will have to receive.

Jim

And please do not forget to include miscarriages, and their punishment, such as El Salvador is enacting.

 

[rcwitness]

Don’t throw stones unless you are without sin.

Jim

The Bishop is not persecuting Joe Biden. He was criticizing a rediculous decision, by a “Catholic” college, to honor him with a prestigious award for upholding Catholic moral in his professional field.

Unlike someone like myself, Joe is in a high position and so able to consult with high positions in the Church regarding the moral obligations he has, as a Catholic, to perform his job in harmony with his Catholic faith.

Apparently, his choices don’t warrant excommunication, right? Yet, they certainly don’t warrant award.

 

[commenter]

The Bishop is not persecuting Joe Biden. He was criticizing a rediculous decision, by a “Catholic” college, to honor him with a prestigious award for upholding Catholic moral in his professional field.

Unlike someone like myself, Joe is in a high position and so able to consult with high positions in the Church regarding the moral obligations he has, as a Catholic, to perform his job in harmony with his Catholic faith.

Apparently, his choices don’t warrant excommunication, right? Yet, they certainly don’t warrant award.

Excommunication is not a punishment, it is a healing intervention for benefit of that person (in this case, Biden). In most cases, it is confidential. Bishop Rhoades is not Biden’s bishop. But he is bishop of South Bend, so if priests there take action that harms Biden - like awarding him in a dishonest way - the local bishop has a responsibility to speak out. The bishop is not criticizing Biden’s Washington actions, he is criticizing South Bend actions against the commandment, for bearing false witness - false witness by priests at Notre Dame.

 

[Trader]

He most certainly does.

BIDEN: My religion defines who I am. And I’ve been a practicing Catholic my whole life. And it has particularly informed my social doctrine. Catholic social doctrine talks about taking care of those who can’t take care of themselves, people who need help. With regard to abortion, I accept my church’s position that life begins at conception. That’s the church’s judgment. I accept it in my personal life. But I refuse to impose it on equally devout Christians and Muslims and Jews and–I just refuse to impose that on others, unlike my friend here, the congressman. I do not believe that we have a right to tell other people that women can’t control their body. It’s a decision between them and their doctor, in my view. And the Supreme Court–I’m not going to interfere with that.

Biden’s quote (in red) ignores the real issue here. The teaching of the Catholic Church is not just the philosophical or medical conclusion that life begins at conception. It is the infallible moral teaching of the Church that innocent life must be protected and defended. The exact means to do that are a matter of prudential judgment, but the conclusion that it should be only a matter between a mother and a medical professional is profoundly wrong.

No politician would hold that theft should be between the thief and the victim, or that murder should between the killer and the victim, or that perjury is only a matter between the liar and the victim, or that rape is only between the people directly involved. That would be anarchy with individuals exacting their own justice for every offense. No one publicly holding that position should receive an award from a Catholic institution.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The Bishop is not persecuting Joe Biden. .

I wasn’t referring to the Bishop.

Jim

 

[rcwitness]

It is Catholic morale to impose the ban on abortion to protect the life of the unborn!

What is greater, to give freedom of choice for a woman who became pregnant and decided to end the life within her, or give the right of life to that child who is already alive?

 

[zz912]

If abortion is murder, as you believe, then what would the penalty for a woman who obtains an abortion and murders her baby ?

If there is no penalty, the law is useless

Jim

I’ve already answered this before, favoring great flexibility in punishments ranging from probation to a few years in jail, depending on culpability, remorse, outside pressure, age, whether repeated or used as birth control, etc.

But now I’m seeing what you are doing. This is your particular excuse for supporting virulently pro-abortion politicians while claiming you are faithful to the Church. You claim you personally oppose abortion, but you are excused for voting for pro-abortion politicians because pro-lifers don’t want to give live in prison or the death penalty to mothers who have abortions.

You really think Jesus is going to accept that justification?

 

[zz912]

Abortion is what the Church teaches, an intrinsic moral evil.

However, its not murder by definition and not punishable as murder is.

The Church teaches that it is murder, and actually punishes it more harshly than murder of someone who is already born.

Intentional homicide

2268 The fifth commandment forbids direct and intentional killing as gravely sinful. The murderer and those who cooperate voluntarily in murder commit a sin that cries out to heaven for vengeance.69

Infanticide,70 fratricide, parricide, and the murder of a spouse are especially grave crimes by reason of the natural bonds which they break. Concern for eugenics or public health cannot justify any murder, even if commanded by public authority.

2269 The fifth commandment forbids doing anything with the intention of indirectly bringing about a person’s death. The moral law prohibits exposing someone to mortal danger without grave reason, as well as refusing assistance to a person in danger.

The acceptance by human society of murderous famines, without efforts to remedy them, is a scandalous injustice and a grave offense. Those whose usurious and avaricious dealings lead to the hunger and death of their brethren in the human family indirectly commit homicide, which is imputable to them.71

Unintentional killing is not morally imputable. But one is not exonerated from grave offense if, without proportionate reasons, he has acted in a way that brings about someone’s death, even without the intention to do so.

Abortion

2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.72

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.73
My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.74

2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.75
God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.76

2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,"77 "by the very commission of the offense,"78 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.79 The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.

2273 **The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation: **

**"The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority. **These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin. Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being’s right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death."80

"The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined. . . . As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child’s rights."81

2274 Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being.

Prenatal diagnosis is morally licit, "if it respects the life and integrity of the embryo and the human fetus and is directed toward its safe guarding or healing as an individual. . . . It is gravely opposed to the moral law when this is done with the thought of possibly inducing an abortion, depending upon the results: a diagnosis must not be the equivalent of a death sentence."82

 

[zz912]

Pre-viability, both Jews, Muslims and others, do not view abortion as immoral.

We live in a pluralistic society, so trying to write a law that makes abortion equivalent to murder, will never happen.

By definition, Catholics claim that Muslims and Jews do not have the fullness of truth or morality. Do you accept this Church teaching?

 

[pnewton]

I’ve already answered this before, favoring great flexibility in punishments ranging from probation to a few years in jail, depending on culpability, remorse, outside pressure, age, whether repeated or used as birth control, etc.

“Murder” can mean different things, anything from taking any life, to taking only of innocent life willfully and with premeditation. In the first sense, abortion is murder; in the latter, it is not, because of the likelihood of the mother not recognizing the baby as human life. It is more akin to reckless conduct, doing something that* might* result in loss of life, at least from a legal perspective. So it really is consistent and realistic that the law punish abortion at a much lower level than other homicides.

 

[rcwitness]

“Murder” can mean different things, anything from taking any life, to taking only of innocent life willfully and with premeditation. In the first sense, abortion is murder; in the latter, it is not, because of the likelihood of the mother not recognizing the baby as human life. It is more akin to reckless conduct, doing something that* might* result in loss of life, at least from a legal perspective. So it really is consistent and realistic that the law punish abortion at a much lower level than other homicides.

But if the law stood up for the reality of what is happening, how would a mother (and father) be ignorant to realize that the baby is a human life?

You see? If the law condones abortion, then ignorance abounds. If the law condemns abortion as killing a human life, then knowledge prospers

 

[commenter]

Again, people keep getting off topic. This thread is not about whether abortion should be legal or not. That is for another thread. This thread is about a bishop, a politician, and a university.

We all agree the Catholic Church claims that abortion should be illegal, and that Notre Dame and Joe Biden claim to be Catholic. We all agree that Biden disagrees with the Catholic Church in his public stand on abortion and other issues.

Is Biden’s position so far from the Catholic one so as to make Notre Dame’s award to be severely imprudent, and damaging to the Catholic witness on social matters?
I would say yes.
Are the priests at Notre Dame irresponsible to Mr. Biden’s own spiritual welfare and conscience formation? I would say yes.
Should the bishop remove the Catholic label from Notre Dame, given that the problem has gone on for over 45 years? I would say yes.
Should laity take other actions towards Notre Dame, and the religious order that provides cover for this dishonesty? I would say yes, but I welcome suggestions.

 

[Brendan]

The SCOTUS already has ruled that states can not outlaw all abortion.

Again, write a law that bans all abortions and include what penalty women who obtain abortions, will have to receive.

Jim

My thoughts are to tax it, sort of like how automatic weapons are regulated. They too are not actually banned.

You just have to have a background check, receive written permission from your local law enforcement and the ATF, and pay a $200 to get a ‘transfer tax stamp’

If you obtain an automatic weapon without one, the charge includes tax evasion.

All of that could legally be required of an abortion. The tax stamp could even be much higher.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I’ve already answered this before, favoring great flexibility in punishments ranging from probation to a few years in jail, depending on culpability, remorse, outside pressure, age, whether repeated or used as birth control, etc.

But now I’m seeing what you are doing. This is your particular excuse for supporting virulently pro-abortion politicians while claiming you are faithful to the Church. You claim you personally oppose abortion, but you are excused for voting for pro-abortion politicians because pro-lifers don’t want to give live in prison or the death penalty to mothers who have abortions.

You really think Jesus is going to accept that justification?

You gave a flawed answer.

The law has to have the penalty for a woman who violates the law.

And therein lies the problem.

There is no member of Congress who will write such a law that punishes a woman who obtains an abortion, nor the doctor who performs it.

There are virtually no members of Congress who would even support such a law.

This is the reason why in 40 years since Roe V Wade, no law has been written, as well as the fact that they now the SCOTUS would throw it out just as they did in 73.

And FYI, knock off your bogus accusations toward me. The thread isn’t about me.

Jim

 

[rcwitness]

You gave a flawed answer.

The law has to have the penalty for a woman who violates the law.

And therein lies the problem.

There is no member of Congress who will write such a law that punishes a woman who obtains an abortion, nor the doctor who performs it.

There are virtually no members of Congress who would even support such a law.

This is the reason why in 40 years since Roe V Wade, no law has been written, as well as the fact that they now the SCOTUS would throw it out just as they did in 73.

And FYI, knock off your bogus accusations toward me. The thread isn’t about me.

Jim

I don’t think we are so interested in punishment of abortions as Catholic individuals (especially leaders) making strong testimonies against its practice, and every attempt to ceaselessly pursue lawful banishment against it.

We aren’t criticizing Biden, or anyone, for upholding the law which has recognized abortion as legal.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I don’t think we are so interested in punishment of abortions as Catholic individuals (especially leaders) making strong testimonies against its practice, and every attempt to ceaselessly pursue lawful banishment against it.

We aren’t criticizing Biden, or anyone, for upholding the law which has recognized abortion as legal.

Well, I don’t know what the debate in this thread is about then.

Jim

 

[rcwitness]

Well, I don’t know what the debate in this thread is about then.

Jim

Not honoring Biden with a Catholic award.

Though he personally doesn’t agree with choosing to abort babies, he believes the law to aid and allow it is a just law. He must be outspoken that the law is unjust and intrinsically evil, if we are to honor him with a Catholic award.