Bishop Schneider to Pope Francis: For the Sake of Your Soul, Retract Approval of Same-Sex Civil Unions

[VanitasVanitatum]

Wasn’t his statement originally about gay unions and not platonic unions as some want to believe.

The act is part and parcel of a gay civil union. It is naive to think otherwise

The pope is speaking technically, so even if it is naive, it is not heterodox.

 

[upant]

Ok, so you want the Church to authorize all unions?

What? Sex outside of marriage is a sin, whether it is gay sex or heterosexual sex. Why would the church authorize sin? Which is why it doesn’t authorize civil unions.

We will wait.

I didn’t say that. I asked where he okayed civil unions but condemned the sex act in them. I am still waiting

We are talking about actual teaching like the death penalty, the morality of environment issues etc.

Is the Bible now wrong on the death penalty?

Environment? The pope is in favor of a plan that will put more CO2 into the air for the next 10 years but this plan also says we are supposedly at the point of no return. It is illogical

How can we blindly following this

I don’t support same sex unions/marriage.

These are civil unions, civil unions are not sexless

The sin would be adultery in this case but even heterosexual couples in a civil union have marriage protection under the law which the Church does not oppose

Why use a 2nd marriage to change the sin?

The church doesn’t recognize marriage outside the church as valid so why would it recognize civil unions as valid? Will the pope say marriage outside the church is valid because it offers legal protection?

they are free to reject teaching

No one is rejecting teaching, the teaching has been in place and that is why the pope’s statement needs clarification

 

[Sarcelle]

The church doesn’t recognize marriage outside the church as valid so why would it recognize civil unions as valid? Will the pope say marriage outside the church is valid because it offers legal protection?

You missed the point.

The Church does not recognize any civil union as valid but that doesn’t necessarily mean it opposes the legal protection and status the state confers to the people in these unions.

For example, a man would like to recognize his second wife as his heir and the government concurs then the Church has no problems with that.

Should the Church demand that the first wife by law be the heir since by church law she is still his wife?

 

[meltzerboy2]

I think the Pope would agree that a homosexual act is a sin whether performed in a civil union or not. However, it is not the homosexual act that the Pope has approved of; it is the civil union of gay people for the benefit of companionship and happiness as well as legal rights provided by the State. I am sure that is what the Pope means. What the Pope has declared, in my view as a non-Catholic and non-Christian, is an act of charity, pure and simple, not a sin or a scandalous near-occasion of sin.

 

[AlNg]

OK but although there are responses to each point, I don’t want to derail the thread by going further in depth on this.

 

[upant]

You missed the point.

Not at all, I just don’t agree with the point

The Church does not recognize any civil union as valid

Isn’t this the issue of the thread, the pope recognizing civil unions as valid. The church doesn’t, the pope appears to recognize them.

Should the Church demand that the first wife by law be the heir since by church law she is still his wife?

Muddying the water again
Does the church recognize the second marriage? Only one marriage is valid or is the church going to recognize civil unions in any form?

It is a legal question and not under the jurisdiction of the church or it would be only the valid marriage be it first or second

 

[Sarcelle]

Again it has nothing to do with the Church recognizing or not recognizing civil unions.

It has something to do with the Church recognizing that the government is a separate entity with different views and will pass laws based on these differing views. The Church has one view, the state has another. The state passes laws that recognizes civil unions the Church doesn’t recognize. The Church decides that it will not oppose the passing of these laws in spite of these laws going against Church teaching. It doesn’t mean that the Church agrees with the state.

We, meaning most of us around the world do not live in a CatholIc theocracy where Church laws and civil laws are one and the same. The Church recognizes that.

 

[upant]

I am sure that is what the Pope means.

All he has to do is state what he means, until then, the bishop is right

Even if persons living in such unions should not engage in mutual sexual pleasure — which in reality has been shown to be quite unrealistic — such unions represent a great scandal, a public recognition of the sins of fornication against nature and a continuous proximate occasion of sin.

for the benefit of companionship and happiness as well as legal rights provided by the State.

Which are never justifications for sin.

Again it has nothing to do with the Church recognizing or not recognizing civil unions.

It should not but it now does

The pope could clear the air if he clarified his statement. Seems every one else is doing it for him but somehow it doesn’t carry the same weight

 

[hvizsgyak]

I think a civil union is much better than gay marriage where society has made a mockery of a Christian Sacrament. The civil union is a way to allow gay/lesbians to have certain civil rights that currently heterosexual married couples have in countries (although there are some rights that should be opposed by all Christian, one of them being adoption of children). The Pope I feel knows gay marriage gave gays/lesbians more than these particular civil rights and he as well as all Christians should be and are opposed to gay marriage. Let the civilian government have the civil unions just to stop the mockery of our Christian marriage.

 

[BigBoom]

The church is not only infallible, but indefectible as well. It is impossible for church teaching to defect from a previous teaching.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

Isn’t this the issue of the thread, the pope recognizing civil unions as valid. The church doesn’t, the pope appears to recognize them.

He said they need legal protection and the Vatican said he was talking only about state provisions.

 

[MikeInVA]

And when clergy who publicly chastise the Pope, claim the moral high ground to be followed, it’s just terrible.

I think it is an assumption that Bishop Schneider hasn’t tried to correct in private.

 

[upant]

He said they need legal protection and the Vatican said he was talking only about state provisions.

It can be interpreted differently and has been by the gay community.

 

[GeorgiaLee]

Pray for the Pope. Don’t judge him. He needs our prayers.

 

[Jen7]

Pray for the Pope. Don’t judge him. He needs our prayers.

Pray and don’t judge? So what do i do/say when I enroll my kids in CCD and they’re taught that the church approves of same sex unions now??

 

[Jen7]

I didn’t think anyone was qualified to judge the state of another’s soul - let alone the Pope’s.

It’s public scandal and the Pope ought to know better. I think it’s a stretch to say we have to act like the Pope thinks he was just talking off the cuff to a couple friends, not giving scandal to the entire world. Surely he realizes how his words have been spun and the implications thereof. Surely he realizes folks now think he sanctioned sin. If he doesn’t realize that, then I agree - the bishop shouldn’t have suggested the Pope may have sinned. But do YOU believe the Pope is so ignorant?!

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

That’s the secular medias fault.

 

[Chistian-ity]

I agree with this.

 

[Jen7]

Maybe so… but that unfortunately situation now requires something of him. If my local news station told the whole town that I was promoting abortion, I would unfortunately NEED to publicly declare that false. Pre-Covid I was very active at my parish and it would be a scandal to all who knew me to hear the false news. For the sake of all who saw me as a knowledgeable Catholic & Christian I would HAVE TO speak up and not just say “meh, I didn’t say that so the mistake is their fault.” :woman_shrugging:t2:

 

[Maximian]

To say to ordinary Catholics that they are free to reject that authority and wisdom if you don’t like it

No! Not because you don’t like it. Because it contradicts the timeless teaching ofcthe church. That’s the whole point, if you haven’t grasped that, then you haven’t understood the criticism.