Bishops remain focused on 'responsible restrictions' on gun ownership

[Prodigal_Son1]

AMERICAN POLITICS and RELIGION are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.

Gun control laws are American politics. They are not religion.

I’ve learned, and believe, we are Christians above all things. We live in a secular world, through our Christian faith. They are not separate.

BTW, I noticed you avoided the question I asked you. Why was that?

 

[iloveangels]

I’ve learned, and believe, we are Christians above all things. We live in a secular world, through our Christian faith. They are not separate.

BTW, I noticed you avoided the question I asked you. Why was that?

Not everything is American politics. Religion is not politics.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

The USCCB has exactly 0 weight in any matters.

That’s where you’re wrong. There are many who receive them as teachers of the faith.

 

[iloveangels]

That’s where you’re wrong. There are many who receive them as teachers of the faith.

Then they should stop blabbering pointlessly (and ignorantly as well) about American politics, and start teaching RELIGION.

10.1% of the US are ex-Catholic. 80% of Catholics don’t go to mass weekly. That’s religion. It needs fixing and this should be what the bishops are working on, not politics.

 

[pnewton]

1.Support measures that control the sale and use of firearms

2.Support measures that make guns safer (especially efforts that prevent their unsupervised use by children and anyone other than the owner)

3.Call for sensible regulations of handguns

4.Support legislative efforts that seek to protect society from the violence associated with easy access to deadly weapons including assault weapons

5.Make a serious commitment to confront the pervasive role of addiction and mental illness in crime.

Which one of these would even the hardcore NRA member have issue with? Do guns need to be as unsafe as possible? Should all laws be senseless instead of sensible?

 

[Brendan]

This is American secular politics. This is not religion.

This is where I disagree with you. The Bishops have every right to enter into politics. In Catholic Moral theology, a good and just government is one that governs according to the Natural Law.

There are certain doctrinal elements where the Bishops speak with the authority of God ( abortion, euthanasia, contraception, the status of marriage).

There are other areas where the Bishops speak on matters of prudential judgment ( death penalty, taxes, and yes, gun control). In those areas, the faithful may offer equal, yet counter judgement.

But the Bishops have every right and duty to enter into the public sphere, without their (name removed by moderator)ut the role of government loses it’s foundation on Natural Law.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Last time, no one has stated bans, except gun right advocates. I have posted the Call to Action from the USCCB.

“I seriously think there should be a ban on certain guns.” - forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=10160950#post10160950

“That’s why we need to ban them”- forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=10160508#post10160508

“I think the bans need to run deeper. Thanks for convincing me of that. Certain weapons are unnecessary in private citizens hands, especially when we can’t inconvenience them by requiring strict securing”- forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=10158598#post10158598

“You’re right, maybe bans are the solution if we can’t slow down the trends in other ways.”- forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=10158572#post10158572

" That mentality has driven me very close to thinking a ban on certain weapons would not be a bad thing."- forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=10158529#post10158529

Either you forgot what you wrote or you consider yourself a “gun right advocate.”

 

[pnewton]

10.1% of the American population is now ex-Catholic. 80% of Catholics don’t attend mass weekly. And yet, they’re mouthing off about politics.

I do not think there is anything to be gained by blatant disrespect to one’s spiritual leaders. One thing topics like this show is that there are those in both extremes of the political spectrum that ignore what the Church says when it becomes a matter of disagreement, even when what is said is innocuous, leaving us open to our own prudence. Just a sniff of possible association with “the other side” opens up the strawman feeding frenzy.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

AMERICAN POLITICS and RELIGION are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.

Gun control laws are American politics. They are not religion.

I posted this earlier in this thread-
“Given that Politics (big P) is an integral part of our society and is the main tool by which we shape and maintain our society their statement is going to be Political (big P) if is going to be effective or meaningful. What the good Bishops did not do was present a political (little p; as in lib vs. cons, this party over that party) statement.”

The idea that Politics and Religion don’t overlap or that Religion has no business in Politics ignores the role Politics and Religion play in our society (I’m talking about big P Politics, not little p politics).

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

“I seriously think there should be a ban on certain guns.” - forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=10160950#post10160950

“That’s why we need to ban them”- forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=10160508#post10160508

“I think the bans need to run deeper. Thanks for convincing me of that. Certain weapons are unnecessary in private citizens hands, especially when we can’t inconvenience them by requiring strict securing”- forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=10158598#post10158598

“You’re right, maybe bans are the solution if we can’t slow down the trends in other ways.”- forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=10158572#post10158572

" That mentality has driven me very close to thinking a ban on certain weapons would not be a bad thing."- forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=10158529#post10158529

Either you forgot what you wrote or you consider yourself a “gun right advocate.”

I started these discussions suggesting controls over bans. After seeing the arguments, and mentality, I am concerned that certain guns are accessible to too many people. As was pointed out, what is being suggested now that a responsible, law abiding, and Christian, gun owner would find objectionable?

I’ve tried to avoid falling back to bans, but the more of these discussions I see, the more I am compelled to suggest it to the lawmakers in a letter writing campaign.

 

[pnewton]

The idea that Politics and Religion don’t overlap or that Religion has no business in Politics ignores the role Politics and Religion play in our society (I’m talking about big P Politics, not little p politics).

I think you are right, and have worded the issue better than politics and religion are two different things. I guess it has to be true that they are two *different *things, but we can not take this to ignore the relationship between the two. In our religion, we find our moral compass. With our moral compass, we engage in political activity. I think people have been way too hard on the bishops when they have done nothing but define the moral boundries, most of which we already agree on. Namely, we hold to the value of human life and the need to protect it. Pretty much we all agree that the framework of the law needs to highlight the value of life. Catholics also need to acknowledge that vengence and useless violence are contrary to our faith and pose a danger to life. I find it odd there is objection to the word “sensible”, but mostly, there should be agreement here, at least as far as the bishops define the moral issues.

 

[Ender]

I fully support the Bishops call to action, in response to the attack on Sandy Hook Elementary School.

Call to action? What specific changes have they called on us to implement? They have proposed nothing at all, they have implied certain things and left it up to people like yourself to infer their support of actions they have not, and cannot, suggest.

From some of the arguments I’ve see presented, I feel more and more drawn to supporting a ban of certain weapons.

You are quite justified in supporting whatever policy you feel will be best for the public. As are we all. What you are not justified in is suggesting that your policies (whatever they may be) are in line with Church teaching while opposing policies are not.

Ender

 

[Ender]

The Bishops have every right to enter into politics.

As Americans they have a right to be politically active but as churchmen they should recognize the inappropriateness of their involvement in politics. It is one thing to take a stand on moral issues that have political implications but quite another to take a stance on political issues that involve no moral choices.

There are certain doctrinal elements where the Bishops speak with the authority of God ( abortion, euthanasia, contraception, the status of marriage).

Absolutely, these are moral issues and the fact that they have become political ones as well is irrelevant.

There are other areas where the Bishops speak on matters of prudential judgment ( death penalty, taxes, and yes, gun control). In those areas, the faithful may offer equal, yet counter judgement.

Yes, these are the areas where they do speak out and shouldn’t. These areas are not their responsibilities, they are ours and it is as inappropriate for them to encroach on our turf as it is for us to encroach on theirs.

But the Bishops have every right and duty to enter into the public sphere, without their (name removed by moderator)ut the role of government loses it’s foundation on Natural Law.

There is no clear line dividing the issues about which it is appropriate for the bishops to opine from those where it is not and sometimes it is a hard distinction to make. Usually, however, it isn’t. The bishops are way too politically involved and their involvement outside of their competence is harmful to the Church, to themselves, and to us.

Ender

 

[smndtupidisaftr]

That’s where you’re wrong. There are many who receive them as teachers of the faith.

The Vatican has consistently stated that these congregations have absolutely no authority outside of individual bishops enforcing their decisions.

 

[TEPO]

Before I begin a devotion for renewed wisdom in the Church, I’ll wait to see how the universal healthcare bill pans out… As it was, the Bishops pushed the faithful towards supporting it -now were on the verge of losing some religious liberties.

…now to go and ask us to lay down arms seems like not such a good idea… :shrug:

Honestly, it could be that the Bishops aren’t ‘evil’ enough to play the game of politics… I’ll keep praying.

 

[RobbyS]

I don’t particularly care for the quote, even if it an accurate quote. First, it doesn’t apply here, as there has been not policy statement. Second, bishops do not exercise authority based on “credibility” whatever that means. Credibility is not something inherent in a bishop, or anyone. Rather it lies in the mind of the reader, or listener. Bishops exercise authority. This is something the seculare world can not diminish.

When bishops speak out on matters of political policy, they are subject to question like anyone else. A synod is one thing, an organization like the UCCB is another.

 

[nitesnake]

When bishops speak out on matters of political policy, they are subject to question like anyone else. A synod is one thing, an organization like the UCCB is another.

Yes, and the fact that gun control laws in the U.S.simply do not work makes the political statements made by them concerning this issue sound even more ridiculous and naive.

 

[nitesnake]

I do not think there is anything to be gained by blatant disrespect to one’s spiritual leaders.

It’s not disrespect of any sort. Cardinal Dulles clearly warned the Bishops about dabbling in politics.
He strongly warned the Bishops that if they choose to make political statements, then they must be prepared to own those statements, for better or worse.He warned them that some, or even many Catholics may vigorously disagree with them, and that it is our absolute right to do so.
As in the case of gun control.

 

[nitesnake]

I think people have been way too hard on the bishops when they have done nothing but define the moral boundries, most of which we already agree on.

That is simply untrue, They clearly spelled out 5 purely political stances on what should be done about gun control policies in the U.S. I’ve already posted them several times in this thread, and so have others. I doubt “most” of us posting on this thread have “already” agreed that they are simply “moral boundaries”. I further doubt that you could get even one of the Bishops to say that with a straight face either.

You seem far too willing to excuse the Bishops for almost any thing. What passes in the real world as a blatant, left-wing political statement, you choose to see as a sort of pastoral care letter, devoid of any political overtones, with which we must all follow in lockstep, without question.

 

[TEPO]

That is simply untrue, They clearly spelled out 5 purely political stances on what should be done about gun control policies in the U.S. I’ve already posted them several times in this thread, and so have others. I doubt “most” of us posting on this thread have “already” agreed that they are simply “moral boundaries”. I further doubt that you could get even one of the Bishops to say that with a straight face either.

what about # 5…?

5.Make a serious commitment to confront the pervasive role of addiction and mental illness in crime.

I’m not so sure that that’s “purely political” -I think that might actually fall within the realm of morals.