Bishops rip HHS mandate That Forces Coverage of Birth Control, Abortion Drugs

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:rolleyes:

It’s been explained to you several times. There are several ways to help the poor. Abortion and contraception are always wrong.
Indeed. The only reason I usually reply to these threads is to prevent the lurkers and newbies from thinking this is a prevailing Catholic point of view. I’ve long since abandoned hopes of actually changing CMatt’s mind.
 
I square it by giving them a choice on whether they want to close or remain open and care for the sick.
So you’re okay with institutions closing because they are being forced to do things that they find morally questionable?

Should I assume you would have been okay with concentration camps?
 
Exactly. But the key is you “believe” it is twisting the Gospel. Of course the Gospel is not aimed at the US govt. But individuals make up society. And I believe when individuals and faith based groups fall short, government can play a role to help. I don’t believe Jesus would turn down any help He could get. But we simply believe differently.

Laws are imperfect but a democratic society of plural beliefs made up individuals, attempts to come up with a law for its land.

Peace and God bless you.
:rolleyes:

So, I’m assuming that you’d be okay if the Nazi party rose to power in this country then?
 
And isn’t that a sad choice to have to make? See Catholic Charities in Boston, Springfield IL.

Is the greater good here forcing people to violate their conscience…for what? A play to the political base?

On the record, Matt, do you support or oppose this act by the administration?
Well sure it might be a sad choice but as I’ve stated I believe closing might have sadder consequences. I support the imperfect “Obamacare” to what we’ve had to this point.
 
And just what part “of the total picture” do you want Catholic institutions to look at, and why do you think they should go against conscience about providing for abortions? Because Obama wills it that they have to if they want to continue in their missions?

You can call it free and democratic if you wish, but there are obviously ways around the public will. The people of this country did not want Obamacare, yet Obama and his people did it anyway. In the course of doing it, they vested the Secretary of HHS with the power to order insurance companies to do pretty much what the president pleases. Now, are you going to tell me the American public really wanted that? Are you telling me the American public wanted Obama to order Sebelius to force Catholic institutions (or other religious groups) to go against their consciences in a very fundamental way, or to do anything remotely like it?

No, Americans didn’t even know Obama’s people empowered himself in that manner with Obamacare. Probably most of the congress that voted for it didn’t, because they didn’t read it. You don’t have to declare a man a king and put a gold crown on his head for him to rightly be called the “ruler”. Did the Soviets ever actually have the slightest control over their “freely elected” rulers? Do the Iranians? “Rulers” often rule by deceit within democratic frameworks, and that’s exactly what has happened in this case. One man ordered this, and one man only.
👍
 
And just what part “of the total picture” do you want Catholic institutions to look at… The people of this country did not want Obamacare
The caring for the sick part Christ emphaszed. Depends on the poll. At the time I even saw polls of majorities wanting a public option to be included. Many were in favor of such aspects as the sick with pre existing conditions not being denied coverage and children being able to remain on their parents’ coverage longer.
 
The caring for the sick part Christ emphaszed. Depends on the poll. At the time I even saw polls of majorities wanting a public option to be included. Many were in favor of such aspects as the sick with pre existing conditions not being denied coverage and children being able to remain on their parents’ coverage longer.
But I bet if you did a poll, most people would want a choice in what gets covered and what doesn’t.
 
So you’re okay with institutions closing because they are being forced to do things that they find morally questionable?

Should I assume you would have been okay with concentration camps?
No actually as I’ve said I’d find it sad if they closed. And no you shouldn’t assume about me.
 
I really don’t get why Catholics are framing this as a “protection of conscience” issue. Don’t make me fund abortions because its against my conscience?

How about something more aggressive like: this is evil and I refuse to be told to do what is evil!
I get what you’re saying, but there is a reason for the wording. First, it is a protection of conscience issue. We will never get a law saying that people can, in general, refuse to be told what it evil because then people can just say, “The government is evil! I won’t pay taxes!” and be exempt. But with religious freedom, it’s different because this stuff was obviously in our teaching long before the mandate.

That, and there are others who don’t agree with us, those of other religious faiths, but who support us because they understand the bigger picture…that if religious freedom is infringed, it is only a matter of time until they are in the same boat.

If you argue “evil” to the judges and they don’t see the evil in in, that’s a problem. Arguing religious freedom, that is something they can see, because that is in the constitution.
 
No actually as I’ve said I’d find it sad if they closed. And no you shouldn’t assume about me.
You’re posts are very contradictory though.

You’re okay with people killing a class of people, but not another class of people. All under the name of “democracy.”

Answer the question though. Would you be okay if I advocated programs where the government funded the poor, yet I was okay with killing the Jews?
 
In the past I’ve compiled a list of all the bishops speaking out on a particular controversial issue (for instance, over Notre Dame’s invitation to President Obama) — here are the bishops who have spoken out against the Obama/HHS mandate.

More…
 
I wouldn’t hold your breath…Cardinal George in Chicago has been slow to react as well…somehow I don’t get that. This is a crucial piece of legislation that if enacted fully will step on our religious freedom as it never has in this country. And some of them are dragging their feet? Why?🤷
Could it be because many in the pews don’t agree and they risk losing financial support if they get too involved in Republican politics?
 
Could it be because many in the pews don’t agree and they risk losing financial support if they get too involved in Republican politics?
And this is a issue how? Doing the right thing is more important than financial support… Can’t take them riches to hevean.
 
Maybe but then many people polled believe women should have the right to their own lives too.
So you believe that the “right” of the woman should legally undermine and diminish the natural and God-given right to be born. What a travesty of justice!
 
Maybe but then many people polled believe women should have the right to their own lives too.
The answer is simple… Don’t have sex if you can’t handle the consequences. People want the milk but don’t want the cow.
 
You’re posts are very contradictory though.

You’re okay with people killing a class of people, but not another class of people. All under the name of “democracy.”

Answer the question though. Would you be okay if I advocated programs where the government funded the poor, yet I was okay with killing the Jews?
Umm no actually I wouldn’t be ok with killing Jews. And before someone asks, even though it’s actually something mentioned in the Bible, I’m also not ok with bringng back slavery either. Nor for that matter before anyone asks am I ok with legalized pedophila which has also been asked of me.

But in regard to what you’re describing here, maybe my posts only appear contradictory because I recognize not everyone in a democracy of plural beliefs agrees with the Catholic defintion of personhood as it relates to balancing the rights of the unborn with the rights of women. An entirely separate issue a democratic society attempts to deal with in an imperfect world as it strives to reach a law for its land. Nothing to do with killing Jews, keeping slaves, and so forth.
 
So you believe that the “right” of the woman should legally undermine and diminish the natural and God-given right to be born. What a travesty of justice!
Don’t worry. Most libs think that people’s sufferings (even those that are self made) trump the right to life.
 
Maybe but then many people polled believe women should have the right to their own lives too.
They do. Nothing stops them from doing so and, if abortion were outlawed again, they would still have the right to their own lives. The question is, do they have the right to end the life of others? Its interesting that we have a law, Unborn Victims of Violence Act, with which you can be charged for a double homicide if you murder a pregnant woman, yet abortion is still legal. Is it a child, or not?
 
They do. Nothing stops them from doing so and, if abortion were outlawed again, they would still have the right to their own lives. The question is, do they have the right to end the life of others? Its interesting that we have a law, Unborn Victims of Violence Act, with which you can be charged for a double homicide if you murder a pregnant woman, yet abortion is still legal. Is it a child, or not?
It’s only a child when it benefits their cause.
 
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