British Family Accidentally Enters U.S., Detained by ICE

[ChuckB]

I think this is alluded to in 1 Maccabees.

Isn’t that one of those books you Catholics added to the real Bible? (j/k)

 

[Theo520]

Also, it’s technically not illegal to carry that much cash.

But it is most definitely illegal to cross the US border with that amount, undeclared. Perhaps is money laundering, or drug related.

All combined it does seem their detention was warranted.
The media will spin anyone into a victim, if it’s anti-trump.
The reporting is so bad it’s Fake News.

 

[Annie]

Let’s not be too selective with our skepticism.

I think that it can be important to understand the source of information. Here we have some shady characters saying things, so why should we believe them?

Somehow, our prisons, which actually house people with guilty convictions, have been providing real blankets for centuries. Perhaps there are some minor improvements that could be made?

I think that there are some things people do not understand about this situation. One is that it wanes and waxes. Suddenly we have thousands coming across the border. At another point, we have few attempting to enter illegally or under asylum rules.

If you have a system which is suddenly overwhelmed, especially a system which is multi-layered and bulky in terms of getting things done, the situation will be difficult for those entering the situation. This applies to victims of disasters as well as sudden influxes of asylum-seekers.

A prison is a fairly stable set-up. It is easy to design a budget and inventory and all the rest of it.

If you suddenly had a 15% increase of convicted people, there would likewise be problems in assuring everyone had everything they need.

 

[blackforest]

Here we have some shady characters saying things, so why should we believe them?

Because slippery-slope thinking is fallacious. Someone can lie about one thing and tell the truth about another. As I previously stated, ICE has repeated lied, so why believe them when they say that they have video footage and hunky-dory prison conditions?

Suddenly we have thousands coming across the border. At another point, we have few attempting to enter illegally or under asylum rules.

This still doesn’t excuse a lack of soap and toothbrushes. Or leaving a newborn baby to shiver overnight.

 

[Annie]

Because slippery-slope thinking is fallacious

I don’t think this is a slippery-slope fallacy.

Someone can lie about one thing and tell the truth about another.

Sure, that’s possible. But someone who has definitely lied about one thing is more likely to lie about another.

I am not arguing that conditions at the centers are ideal, simply that these are not the people whose word I’m going to take for that.

 

[Theo520]

blackforest:
What are these ice lies, your link didn’t work. I’m not sure disagreement about gang affiliation by people protected by DACA is lying

What newborn was left shivering overnight? Where was the mother, who should have been holding her baby. (3 months old is young, but not a newborn)

In my facility we too occasionally run out of supplies, it may be bad inventory management but it’s hardly the torture represented.

 

[qui_est_ce]

One issue that needs to be thought of is lice and bedbugs. The ice detention centers have a lot of turnover. It’s logistically impossible to provide blankets for such a large population. It’s probably in the best interests of all to provide these space blankets. Also, they do warm people:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

A space blanket

A space blanket (also known as a Mylar blanket, emergency blanket, first aid blanket, safety blanket, thermal blanket, weather blanket, heat sheet, or shock blanket) is an especially low-weight, low-bulk blanket made of heat-reflective thin plastic sheeting. They are used on the exterior surfaces of spacecraft for thermal control, as well as by people. Their design reduces the heat loss in a person’s body, which would otherwise occur due to thermal radiation, water evaporation, or convection. Their compact size before unfurling and light weight makes them ideal when space or weight are at a premium. They may be included in first aid kits and also in camping equipment. Lost campers and hikers have an additional possible benefit: the metallic surface appearance flashes in the sun, allowing use as an improvised distress beacon for searchers and also as a method of signalling over long distances to other people on the same route.[1]

Space blanket - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[blackforest]

What are these ice lies, your link didn’t work. I’m not sure disagreement about gang affiliation by people protected by DACA is lying

Ice Caught Lying

For those who think it's easier to annoy you than to Google 'Ice caught lying' themselves.

letmegooglethat.com

(ETA - Sorry, I have not control over this widget’s rudeness. I couldn’t also politely ask you to enter three words into your favorite search engine).

Also, you don’t know a lot about babies, do you? Here’s how most medical professionals want babies to sleep in order to prevent SIDS and suffocation. Alone, Back, Crib: How to Keep Babies Safe While They Sleep | Stony Brook Medicine

I’m actually not opposed to safe co-sleeping. But safe co-sleeping does not entail holding a baby all night, which runs the risk of smothering the infant.

In my facility we too occasionally run out of supplies, it may be bad inventory management but it’s hardly the torture represented.

Is this how you explain it in your facility? Do you argue that you shouldn’t be required at all to provide them? https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/06/21/detained-migrant-children-no-toothbrush-soap-sleep/

 

[blackforest]

I don’t think this is a slippery-slope fallacy.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.) blackforest:

It is. There’s a slippery slope to lying about one thing = lying about other things, everything, or things that you personally don’t want to believe are true.

I am not arguing that conditions at the centers are ideal, simply that these are not the people whose word I’m going to take for that.

ICE, for example?

 

[Annie]

I think people who are known to have lied are untrustworthy. I do not say that their telling the truth is ruled out altogether, just that they are not reliable sources of information.

I also am not arguing against the existence of less-than-ideal conditions in ICE detention.

 

[Theo520]

Also, you don’t know a lot about babies, do you? Here’s how most medical professionals want babies to sleep in order to prevent SIDS and suffocation.

What exactly is your allegation against ICE on babies?

I’m more concerned why the young UK mom was backroading with $16k in Canada, for a sunday drive. Maybe the baby was being used as a prop, to allay suspicion. How do young people get loads of cash?

But seriously… what the heck is going on here? The family tried to get a visa but were denied and then they’re found sneaking over the border with a car full of cash. There’s obviously more to this story than meets the eye. And it’s certainly not a case of CBP cruelly mistreating a family as it was originally advertised.

 

[blackforest]

What exactly is your allegation against ICE on babies?

You just blamed a mom for not holding her baby up next to her all night long instead of the government for not turning on the thermostat. I’m explaining to you how infant care works, and why babies require a reasonable temperature.

I’m more concerned why the young UK mom was backroading with $16k in Canada, for a sunday drive. Maybe the baby was being used as a prop, to allay suspicion. How do young people get loads of cash?

Deflection. That is irrelevant to the conditions at ICE detention camps.

 

[Theo520]

You just blamed a mom for not holding her baby up next to her all night long instead of the government for not turning on the thermostat. I’m explaining to you how infant care works, and why babies require a reasonable temperature.

Admit it, you were quite vague in your complaint.

If she sees the baby shivering, yes she should hold it.

She spent her first night in a hotel, no excuse for her not to have extra blankets.

Face it, you’ve been used by this faux story of abuse.

 

[blackforest]

Of all of the victim-blaming I’ve heard from ICE apologists, this one takes the cake. If you can’t see the absurdity, I’ll walk you through it.

1. No, they are not obligated to steal blankets from a hotel to keep handy “just in case” they get detained by ICE. And just in case it bears reminding, stealing is wrong.
2. If a baby is shivering, the heater needs to go on. Nobody can hold a baby for 8 hours overnight without endangering the baby.

Great. Now that everyone has learned basic childcare and the Eighth Commandment, perhaps we can start discussing the human rights and civil liberties abuses in a more meaningful way.

 

[Annie]

And quite honestly, we can’t take their word for their baby’s shivering.

 

[blackforest]

Honestly, (and fortunately), your personal opinion is irrelevant. I just hope that as legal authorities are weighing in on the case, they use more objective criteria than you are. I can’t imagine convicting someone for any host of crimes just because they lied about something unrelated.

 

[Annie]

Honestly, (and fortunately), your personal opinion is irrelevant.

Absolutely, and why? Because I don’t have to make any actual decisions about this, which would require more evidence.

I just hope that as legal authorities are weighing in on the case, they use more objective criteria than you are.

Of course, you are, afaik, in the exact same position that I am in. You are willing to take the word of someone who has already been shown to be lying.

And you are using their accusation against ICE to bolster an opinion you already held. All I am doing is remaining neutral about ICE wrt their accusation.

they lied about something unrelated.

No, not unrelated. First they accuse C&BP of behaving badly, then ICE. They were shown to be lying about their first accusation, so their second accusation is, to me, not evidence that ICE is behaving badly any more than their first against C&BP.

 

[qui_est_ce]

@Annie You are never going to win this one. Some people assume lack of facts not in evidence to advance their agenda. But thank you for persisting.

I don’t see how babies can shiver when they are held close by their mothers under warming space blankets.

I slept with my babies. If I were in a strange detention facility, you bet I’d hold my babies close and keep them warm.

 

[blackforest]

How do you know that this mother wasn’t holding her baby? Were you there with her?

If she was, her baby would have been in danger. What a horrible position to put her in - either sleep dangerously or endure the cold! I slept with my babies, too. But do you even know anything about safe co-sleeping? Cosleeping Safely: The Do's and Don'ts | Ask Dr Sears

Please read this link carefully. Mothers under extreme exhaustion - i.e.easily this one - are not supposed to co-sleep. They also require queen or ideally king-sized beds. Do you really think that they’re providing these at migrant prisons?

It actually sounds like I’m never going to “win.” I can’t have a rational argument with anyone who insists on blaming cold temperatures on the family enduring them. But so goes the classic Right-wing blame-the-victims tactic.

 

[vz71]

An animal in the road caused them to detour into the USA?

The video does not appear to support this.