Brokeback Mountain - Understanding Propaganda

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wader0069:
I would be interested if the catholic Church taught that homosexuality was not a sin. Does it od this?

If not why would I want to hear that I am an abomination, or sinfull. When I am happy and at peace with myself and my sexuality…
The Church teaches that all sex outside of sacramental marriage is a sin. The Church teaches that homosexuality is disordered (as in, opposed to the natural order), but that being homosexual is not in itself sinful. It is homogenital sex that is sinful. Homosexuals, like unmarried heterosexuals, are called to be chaste and celibate.

But there are much better sources for Catholic doctrine than I.
 
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wader0069:
I would be interested if the catholic Church taught that homosexuality was not a sin. Does it od this?

If not why would I want to hear that I am an abomination, or sinfull. When I am happy and at peace with myself and my sexuality…
I’m heading over to my church for a bit and I will pray for you tonight. I sense from your posts that you probably consider that patronizing and probably feel insulted at the thought. But I’ll do it anyway.

So sue me. 😉
 
For those of you who have just joined Catholic Answers, I would like to remind you of Conduct Rule 7 which says: Non-Catholics are welcome to participate but must be respectful of the faith of the Catholics participating on the board.
 
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OhioBob:
The Church teaches that all sex outside of sacramental marriage is a sin. The Church teaches that homosexuality is disordered (as in, opposed to the natural order), but that being homosexual is not in itself sinful. It is homogenital sex that is sinful. Homosexuals, like unmarried heterosexuals, are called to be chaste and celibate.

But there are much better sources for Catholic doctrine than I.
No, you did a good job.
 
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estesbob:
YUP-all of a sudden an influx of Junior members giving us the usual sanctimonious, condescending homosexual talking points. With of course the madatory references to Fred Phelps. I think its called spam

Homosexual bahavior is a mortal sin. That is what our Church affirms and has taught for 2,000 years. All the spin in the world is not going to undo that. What all the homosexual advocates are telling us that we should condone sin. Not going to happen.

At any rate with the arrival of the Homosexual brigade Im out of here.
Nobody asks anyone to condone sin. The gays don’t care if you don’t like them. They simply want to go to the county courthouse, pay $25, and get a marriage license.
 
Eileen T:
No, just propaganda.

homophobic Fear of or contempt for lesbians and homosexuals.
I do not fear lesbians and homosexuals, nor am I contemptuous of them. Actually I feel pity for them and pray for their healing. You are now on my praywer list Aquarius.

bigot a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own
I thought that this may apply to me - until I checked out what prejudice means.

prejudice An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts.
The fact is that the Catholic Church teaching, which is derived from Scripture and Tradition, condemns homosexual acts as a serious sin.

I Corinthians 6:9; 10 Romans 1:24-271 Timothy 1:8-11 Jude 7As a Catholic I accept all the Truths that the Church teaches.

John 18:37-38
Pilate asked him, “So you are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. For this I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to my voice.” Pilate asked him, “What is truth?”

Jesus said He is the Way theTruth and the Life. Truth must be unchanging because it is Infinite. What was true 2000 years ago is true today and will still be true 2000 years from now (if the earth still exists).

Speaking about Catholic Church teaching, Senator Santorum said this,“If you knew the faith was true, then dissent from the truth, when salvation is at stake, would be as irrational and foolish as jumping off a 10-story building because you don’t agree with the law of gravity. It would also be as deadly.”
Do we agree that it’s not nice to discriminate against people because they have AIDs?

Truth may be unchanging. But how do you know your proposition is true?

Santorum is an authority? He’s about to be ex-Senator Santorum.
 
Eileen T:
For those of you who have just joined Catholic Answers, I would like to remind you of Conduct Rule 7 which says: Non-Catholics are welcome to participate but must be respectful of the faith of the Catholics participating on the board.
That’s a good rule. I’d hope that respect would be applied to everyone, not just Catholics.
 
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Aquarius:
Do we agree that it’s not nice to discriminate against people because they have AIDs?
I agree. Throughout history, the Catholic Church has been at the forefront when it comes to caring for/nursing people who have infectious and life-threatening illnesses similar to AIDs, such as leprosy.
Truth may be unchanging. But how do you know your proposition is true?
I accept it as a matter of Faith.
Santorum is an authority? He’s about to be ex-Senator Santorum.
Did you actually read what he said? It was quite profound. I never said he was an authority.

Aquarius
Brokeback Mountain - Understanding Propaganda
Could you explain your position as to why you think Brokeback Mountain does not come into the category of propaganda?
 
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Aquarius:
That’s a good rule. I’d hope that respect would be applied to everyone, not just Catholics.
I agree, Catholics must also be must be respectful of the faith of the Catholics participating on the board.
 
Eileen T:
I agree. Throughout history, the Catholic Church has been at the forefront when it comes to caring for/nursing people who have infectious and life-threatening illnesses similar to AIDs, such as leprosy. I accept it as a matter of Faith.Did you actually read what he said? It was quite profound. I never said he was an authority.

Aquarius
Brokeback Mountain - Understanding Propaganda
Could you explain your position as to why you think Brokeback Mountain does not come into the category of propaganda?
I agree the Church has done great work caring for the sick.

Should society base its policy on your faith? Why? People are essentially saying we should do as they say because of their faith.

I confess to dismissing what Santorum says.

I haven’t seen Brokeback yet. Have you? I can’t deny it is propaganda, but I can ask questions of those who make that claim.

But I did see the Passion. Would that qualify as propaganda? The facts mentioned in the gospls are very few. The techniques which people attribute to Brokeback were also used in the Passion

Is there anything wrong with the *Passion *being propaganda?.
 
Eileen T started this thread comparing Brokeback Mountain with the films and propaganda of Gobbels. I think comparing a movie about a love affair to a monster regime which killed millions based on their (Jewish) faith a tad unfair. Furthermore, Nazi propaganda trumpted the great lie that Jews are not human. Brokeback Mountain shows gay men can love. Hmmm. Talk about comparing a rabid dog to a butterfly.

A more apt comparison would have been Hollywood’s subversive and long campaign to present African Americans as humans in the 1950s and 1960s. “Guess how’s coming to dinner,” “To Kill a Mockingbird,” and other films were great pieces of corrosive propaganda – especially to us good folks in the South.

Back then, us white folks considered blacks as shiftless field hands, lazy, childish, ugly, dumb, and dangerous. But for the War Between the States, those critters would have been in their proper place as property working the cotton fields as God intended.

But along comes Hollywood showing a handsome African American man, in a suit no less, and speaking standard English. And dating a white woman!!! Talk about glorifying perversity. And here comes Gregory Peck defending a black man who in better days would have been lynched. Sheer propaganda. How dare Hollywood attack a racial caste system that had worked well for centuries. Who do they think they are?

I’m sure other posters will complain skin pigmentation isn’t the same as homosexuals wallowing in their filth. But folks, good devout Christians believed skin pigmentation did mean all difference in world. Catholics and Protestants lived and died in defense of the color line. Men of every Christian faith along with some Jews died defending the Confederacy. And their kin were and are proud of their service. Some theologians may disagree but us white folks knew in our bones we are different from and superior to the slave race.

And Hollywood waged a long propaganda campaign to undermine the Southern way of life. Showing African Americans as men and women with dignity. Listening to, and broadcasting, their slander against our way of life. Pretending blacks were American citizens who are protected by the Constitution. What ever happened to good films like “Birth of a Nation?”

Eillen, help me out here.
 
Way back when I wrote my first post about the myths of homosexual movement, I forgot one.

I had a chance to use the edit feature to insert it, but I was tired and I knew that the very next response would bring it up anyway.

It did.

The greatest myth of the homosexual movement is not the gene theory, it is the Fred Phelps stereotype.

Who is Fred Phelps? Why he is such a nut-job bigot that he not only protests Catholic Churches (something the far right and the far left have in common) but he also protests Baptist churches, and all other Prostestant denominations. He hates the American government and supports Saddam Hussein’s dictatorship. He condemns those who go to candle light vigils to Hell. His life is a festival of drugs and duplicity, violence and righteousness. He is a monster. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Phelps

Fred Phelps is the comparison made whenever anyone proclaims the truth about homosexuality, whether they are Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, or Jew but especially if they are Christian and particularly if they are Catholic. (Ironic, isn’t it?)

The logic is this: If you are against homosexuality, you must be a mindless, violent bigot like Fred Phelps.

Of course, the logic does not hold. It precludes a middle ground where you protest the sinfulness of the act for being sinful and do not wish (or perform) harm upon the sinner himself.

You disagree with me, therefore you wish me ill.

For the Christian, nothing could be further from the truth. We convert not out of self-interest and not even out of self-preservation. We convert out of love. Our goal is to help people fix their minds on the eternal future. After the first trillion years in Heaven, the time we spend here on Earth will seem so trivial. Yet that is the test. There is no other. Today is your second chance.

This myth of the homosexual culture goes hand-in-hand with its disdain for traditional masculinity. Many gay-supremacists proclaim homosexuals as “more advanced” psychologically, physically, and genetically because they have more successfully embraced the feminine and thus, become more “total” as humans than we simple one-sex breeders. This is the darker side of a movement that already displays an alarming degree of “agree with me or I will make you.”

This repugnance towards traditional masculinity and shrieking anger towards those the gay movement would brand unbelieving heretics is part and parcel with Bb’s message:
Whenever it considers straight men, Brokeback Mountain begins to verge toward Magdalene Sisters–style prejudicial stereotyping. The film allows its sexually omnivorous protagonists to be morally ambiguous … Yet essentially every straight male character in the film is not only unsympathetic, but unsympathetic precisely in his embodiment of masculinity.
At its most extreme, the film’s indictment of masculinity takes the form of deadly homophobic violence, as in the brutal episode recounted by Ennis and in the murderous images toward the end of the film.
decentfilms.com/sections/reviews/2645

The gay movement has no support beyond the type of shallow, narcissistic, and fascist arguments that can not even stand up to a purely secular evaluation. It relies on bigoted hyperbole reminiscent of the very vituperation they claim to stand against.

Classic case of not believing what you preach.
 
So essentially, the homosexual movement despises masculinity? Again, I think you’re doing little more than placing your argument on the shaky pillars of prejudice.

What the homosexual movement, among others, does resist is the notion that there is a specific way in which one must act if he or she is a given gender. There is an archetypical image of what a man is supposed to be, while many men do fit this archetype, those who do not feel pressured to change themselves to fit it. The result (and I am speaking from personal experience) is a lack of confidence and an intense feeling of inadaquecy.

The fact is, this masculine archetype is not something we all fit into. Just because one has a penis does not mean he will act a certain way. There is a wide range of diversity among males (and females), society has taken one image and attempted to project it onto us all.

I am a homosexual myself. I have never fit into the masculine persona that I was handed. The result has been rather corrosive to my self image. This does not mean that I hate masculinity, I only hate the fact that I was so pressured to conform to others ideas of what a male should be.

As for Brokeback, I would say that the characters were very masculine. They were cowboys, who worked with their hands, who wrestled and were tough. Ennis showed a very limited range of emotions. They fit into the male archetype perfectly…oh, except for one thing, they liked guys.

I think this film was helpful in breaking the stereotype that masculinity= heterosexuality. I would suggest you acquaint yourself with some gay men outside of television depictions. I have many gay friends. Some dress in drag, some are flamboyant and feminine and ‘stereotypically gay’. Others, you would assume they are straight unless they told you otherwise. Brokeback mountain shatters stereotypes, it doesn’t re-inforce them. If you find a disdain for traditional masculinity in the gay community, I think it is fair to say that this is not disdain, but rather a fear that others ideas of what being a man means will be forced unto them.
 
Well if you’re not careful, you gay guys, you might just get converted back if you really become regular members. So you just be careful, ya hear?!
 
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MikeinSD:
Nazi propaganda trumpted the great lie that Jews are not human. Brokeback Mountain shows gay men can love. Hmmm. Talk about comparing a rabid dog to a butterfly.
No. Bb shows gay men can cloy to each other in a festival of personal, psychological and eternal destruction.

And it accomplishes this by catering to homosexual prejudices towards traditional masculinity and religious beliefs. (You don’t actually think all that self-destructive behavior is their fault, do you?)

If you believe “Bb shows gay men can love” then it also shows brothers and sisters can love each other. You believe it shows fathers can love daughters of consenting age and mothers can love sons of the same age (which will of course go down).

If you take down the social constraints against homosexuality, to what temporal or eternal authority will you appeal to protest these other “advancements”?

Social opinion? Fat chance. This cannot be controlled. It changes as often as the wind. The opinion of the masses have fluctuated wildly with regard to objective right and wrong over history. Not to mention the fact that pro-incest people can just as easily conjure up your Fred Phelps argument of disagreement = you want to hurt us, therefore we deserve special government patronage that elevates us above normal citizens.

Truth? Who’s truth? You’re a relativist. After tearing down all reference to objective truth, where will you stand when the devil turns on you?

Religion? Impossible. You chucked all faith out the window when you insinuated that pleasure is life is objectively more important than whatever comes next.

Birth defects? Disease? No again. Everyone has a right to use contraception and abortion on the one hand. “Your laws need to be kept off their bodies” on the other.

Morality? Who’s?

After all, we are the ones who’s concept of love is “confined”. Look into your brave new world, super citizen and see what wonders man can accomplish when he tries (for the second century in a row) to rebuild society in his own image.
 
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estesbob:
Which means it is our DUTY as Catholics to proclaim this TRUTH far and wide-especially to out Homosexual bretheren. We must respect them, we must not disciminate against them BUT we must, for their own good, proclaim to them that are puting their immortal soul in jeapordy by their behavior.
I think we as Catholics should first stop using all forms of birth control. It is a sin as well. Then and only then can we “proclaim” anything.
 
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Gnosis:
So essentially, the homosexual movement despises masculinity? Again, I think you’re doing little more than placing your argument on the shaky pillars of prejudice.
Yes. Because all the arguments for the homosexual movement do. Disparaging true masculinity is an indispensable crutch of the movement as the rest of your post shows.
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Gnosis:
What the homosexual movement, among others, does resist is the notion that there is a specific way in which one must act if he or she is a given gender.
And what we say, is that your gender is defined by your body and your body is real. Therefore, your gender is a part of objective reality and you cannot rationalize your way out of it.

Questions like “can men have babies?” stymie the lesbian feminists like Mary Daly. Apparently, the court is still out on that one despite the obvious answer. This is the type of utter confusion the movement ironically pushes as clarity.
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Gnosis:
I am a homosexual myself. I have never fit into the masculine persona that I was handed. The result has been rather corrosive to my self image. This does not mean that I hate masculinity, I only hate the fact that I was so pressured to conform to others ideas of what a male should be.

As for Brokeback, I would say that the characters were very masculine. They were cowboys, who worked with their hands, who wrestled and were tough. Ennis showed a very limited range of emotions. They fit into the male archetype perfectly…oh, except for one thing, they liked guys.
Everyone conforms to some extent or other. Everyone chaffs at authority at times – even faithful Catholics. The faithful ones do not find excuses to cave in to animal desires and call it freedom.

As for your take on traditional masculinity, you probably should have asked for one because cowboy is not it. (But cowboy is how the homosexual movement would have you define it.) You can be a shy, sensitive, soft-handed intellectual and still be an authentic man.

An authentic man does not show love by being cloying and possessive. An authentic man knows he was born stronger than a woman and uses his strength to protect the weak and innocent from the tyranny of evil. This includes helping those who are at a disadvantage economically, physically, psychologically, and spiritually.

An authentic man finds his purpose in his work. He puts away childish things. He is not a bully who victimizes the weak because in doing so, he reveals a shameful weakness of character. He knows the important difference between dying to self and self-destruction. He works to spread peace and happiness through the stability he offers society in the form of his sacrifice.

An authentic man lives by a code that acts as a moral guide in times of confusion when fast action is needed. He does not dedicate his time to blurring the lines between good and evil and if he is an exemplary man, he will even elect to die for that good. He never confuses compassion with abuses like favoritism, coddling suck-ups, and caving in to sexual gratification.

The characters in Bb do many things, and in all those things they fall far short of the definition above. “Die to self” would be the last words you would expect to hear from their lips. It is almost as if they confuse longing for carnal boredom the way they casually use several partners as filler for downtime.

Their selves, like your self, reigns supreme. What it wants, it gets by torturing your conscience into hating good and loving gluttony. Self image was the crux of your conversion. This is the very image in which the homosexual movement is cast: torturing its heretics into submission by violent innuendo, suggestion, and force.

The above definition of what an authentic man is is not unattainable by any means. Many will still strive for it even if they fall short at times.

Far too few men think it is worth the effort. That is why boys in this society are more likely to drop out of high school now. They spent their entire lives learning their innate gender is innately inferior and to distrust their own biology as a tool of evil (aka heretics of the culture of death).
 
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Bella3502:
I think we as Catholics should first stop using all forms of birth control. It is a sin as well. Then and only then can we “proclaim” anything.
You use birth control? How sad.

You presume we use birth control? How prejudiced. Don’t bother dredging up that old statistic because it is problematic to say the least. And, like I said, prejudiced to use it as proof that the people posting here use birth control.

There was a family of six kids in pew in front of me Sunday. A family of six kids to my right. And four kids behind me.

Long live the resistance!
 
Stubblespark,

Your numerous and unproven assumptions have placed many members on this board into a box that you yourself have willed into existence. I am a homosexual, and no doubt there are a few here who approve of homosexuality. This however, does not mean that we are moral relativists, that assumption is the product of a very effective slander campaign by the religious right. As soon as we disagree with your version of a morality, you assume that we have no morality whatsoever, or that we hold to no ideals about living a moral life. I also think that you will find very few people on this board who believe that a life in sole pursuit of sensual pleasure is a life well lived. The essential difference between us is that we have broader view of what truth is, of what human existence is, of what our purpose is. I am not a moral relativist. I have no problem saying you are wrong.

I am a male, I can not and do not deny that. Yet does the fact that I am a male mean that I have to act in a certain way? Yes, I am bound to perform certain biological functions, but does that dictate my tastes, my personality? When you pose questions like “can men have babies?”, you are over-simplifying the issue here. Obviously there are certain things that men are and are not, things that they can do and can not. We are not discussing the limits of our biological makeup. We are discussing who we are as persons. I will look at your definition of masculinity. I was simply stating that perceived archetype:
An authentic man does not show love by being cloying and possessive. An authentic man knows he was born stronger than a woman and uses his strength to protect the weak and innocent from the tyranny of evil. This includes helping those who are at a disadvantage economically, physically, psychologically, and spiritually.
An authentic man finds his purpose in his work. He puts away childish things. He is not a bully who victimizes the weak because in doing so, he reveals a shameful weakness of character. He knows the important difference between dying to self and self-destruction. He works to spread peace and happiness through the stability he offers society in the form of his sacrifice.
An authentic man lives by a code that acts as a moral guide in times of confusion when fast action is needed. He does not dedicate his time to blurring the lines between good and evil and if he is an exemplary man, he will even elect to die for that good. He never confuses compassion with abuses like favoritism, coddling suck-ups, and caving in to sexual gratification.
A moral guide? You are being very general here…perhaps you truly meant YOUR moral guide. I am glad that you provided us exactly what it takes to be a man. I see nothing here that excludes the homosexual, or any reason why a homosexual should be disdainful of this notion of masculinity. Homosexuals will fail in this definition only based on your definition of what sexual morality is. And even so, that is only a single facet of this rather idealistic description. You have labeled us all as deeply selfish, gluttonous sex mongers. I’m telling you homosexual couples are in love. When has love ever been selfish? Does not love flow out from us, does in not emanate? Is it not sacrifice? Is love not to surrender ourselves unto others? Did Christ not show that love is to give ourselves up fully and completely?

Your essential problem is your inability to separate sex from homosexuality. Sex is only an aspect of a homosexual relationship, it is an expression of the love that two people feel for one another. As long as you refuse to see these relationships as authentically rooted in love, as your world view does not allow you to do, then you will forever see us as selfish.
Their selves, like your self, reigns supreme. What it wants, it gets by torturing your conscience into hating good and loving gluttony. Self image was the crux of your conversion. This is the very image in which the homosexual movement is cast: torturing its heretics into submission by violent innuendo, suggestion, and force.
Again, you’re trying to force me into an image that is accessible and convenient for you to attack. Because I love someone of the same sex in a romantic way, because I find completion and wholeness in that person who just happens to have the same gender as I, I am inherently selfish? Because I do not agree with your definition of a moral life, my self therefore reigns supreme? I happen to have a faith of my own, I happen to have guidelines and ideals which I attempt to adhere too. I am not perfect, as I’m sure anyone would admit of themselves, but I strive everyday to bringing myself closer to God by loving my fellow human being, by trying to destroy my ego so that He can fill me up.
 
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Bella3502:
I think we as Catholics should first stop using all forms of birth control. It is a sin as well. Then and only then can we “proclaim” anything.
I have 6 kids and have never used birth control. I made a conscious decision when I married to adhere to the teachings of the Church, even those I did not understand.

I did not presume to disagree with those I didn’t understand, I accepted that it was my duty to study and learn why the RCC taught what it did.
 
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