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copperblade
Guest
If you marry them despite the fact, not because of it then it makes all the difference.
Can a couple who don't want to have children get married under the grace of God?
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benedictus2
Guest
Pray for it.
It is not something that we conjure up by ourselves.
It is both a gift and a response. God gives enough faith and if you exercise it then it will grow.
Trusting in yourself will not get you anywhere. One way or another you will know that it is not enough and was never enough.
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benedictus2
Guest
Of course it was self focused. If it wasn’t why would you not allow God to have His way according to His plan. You were engaging in it for the sheer pleasure of it and to the devil with God’s interference.
And please don’t give the reason that if He so wish He can always bring forth life, because if you really think that, you would not have been contracepting in the first place because you would have thought that pretty pointless.
Well I hope Samian goes over what she has written there and ponders. I mean really ponder what she has just described there
From the point where I bolded and underlined, that would not describe a couple using NFP. That would describe someone who ditches the condom because it’s not “pleasureable enough”
When couples go on NFP they know that there is a chance they could miscalculate and thus conceive. But the fact that they have opted for NFP means that they are still willing to go through with this possible miscalculation.
If there is any hesitating that will happen it will happen before any of this starts. So the scenario above is a misrepresentation and a caricature.
You do pray to God but if you are serious about NFP you also know that you are allowing God to have His say and any prayer will have happened way before then.
What you are describing are some sex mad couples who did not have their ABC provisions and decided to go ahead with it because they cannot control themselves. The scenario depicts ABCers not NFPers.
They are like those people who have not paid any attention to God and yet when they are in quandary suddenly remembers God and prays in a panic. That profile fits an ABCer more.
Because that was a misrepresentation of what actually happens.
As I said above, before they even start they know full well what is going to happen. The scene you described applies more to sex mad couples
Next time, try a more realistic scenario that fits with those who opt to use NFP.
Freedom?!!
Enslavement more like it. They are enslaved by their sexual desires that they cannot even hold off for a few days without having their fix.
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And you call it freedom?:confused:
**A truly free person is one who is in-control of his passions not the one controlled by his passions.**
That would be like saying that a drug addict who is able to get hold of as much drugs as he wants because he has the means to do it, is free. You won’t find anyone more enslaved so that talk about freedom is all nonsense.
Here is an excellent article by Jane E Smith which I think ought to be required reading for all Catholics and I am sure non-catholics will learn much from it as well.
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benedictus2
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This is what I find maddening. Since when has a “blessing” been determined by the subjective feeling of those who are being given a blessing?
He/She is objectively a blessing because he/she is a gift of God. He/She is is God’s creation!
I can’t remember what your religion is but I think you said Protestant.
Has the Bible ever regarded children as anything other than a blessing?
For one thing, if children are not a blessing but rather a curse then it goes to reason that YOU are a curse. YOU are one of those who should not be here, who should have been contracepted or aborted or whatever means it takes to ensure that no breath comes out of you at this very moment? Don’t you even get that? What makes you think that just because your mother failed to contracept you it therefore gives you the right to contracept others?
That is why I always said in threads abut contraception that it is about the hegemony of the ego, of the unholy trinity of I/Me/Myself
But for the record, while you think that children are curses that must be avoided, here’s what our risen Lord thinks of them.
http://http://www.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://christian-faith.co/wp-conten...&ndsp=25&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:24&biw=1248&bih=772
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benedictus2
Guest
Well then why are you contracepting if that is the case?
That would be like saying if the tidal wave hits, for sure every single house will be flattened. Now if that is the case, why would you even fortify a house against a tidal wave?
If something is for sure, don’t you think it is rather absurd to even try to attempt to thwart it? So what is the point of all that contracepting?
Yeah right.
If the 1% who do get pregnant are the one who God wanted to get pregnant then why is anyone contracepting at all considering that according to your logic we just have absolutely no say in the matter? Don’t you see how ludicrous that line of thinking is?
If it is a blessing then why is it too bad?
If it is a blessing then there is nothing wrong with it but a lot wrong with the one being blessed don’t you think?
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benedictus2
Guest
Aah, water in parched land. Very well put!
BTW, I really like your replies. Very well thought out, clear and logical.
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catharina
Guest
Back at you!
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Young_Thinker
Guest
All right. Do you know if the Magisterium gives any indications as to whether or not it is permissible to marry someone who is chromosomally of the same gender as you are, yet since birth (I certainly am not talking about people who have undergone sexual realignment surgery; that I would not condone) has looked (including possessing all of the appropriate outward anatomy) and behaved like one of the opposite gender?
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samiam1611
Guest
No one here is saying all children are not blessings.
If it doesn’t bring you happiness, it’s not a blessing by this definition from dictionary.com. Let’s look at some other definitions from various sources:
-something promoting or contributing to happiness, well-being, or prosperity; a boon.
-a thing conducive to happiness or welfare
-a beneficial thing for which one is grateful; something that brings well-being
Happiness is a subjective thing, which in turn, means that something can be a blessing to one person and not to another, therefore, a blessing is subjective. Some children contribute to wellbeing and welfare and some do not, therefore, not every child is a blessing.
If a mother dies while giving birth, do you think that kid is a blessing too? If the mother dies, the father might end up resenting that child. Maybe even to the point that he gives him or her up for adoption. Say then, that an infertile couple adopts the child and everything works out great. The child is a blessing to them, but not to the biological father.
Curse: A cause of harm or misery.
-something that brings or causes great trouble or harm
-a cause of great suffering and distress
We could’ve been neutral.
Blessing- noun - “A favor or gift bestowed by god, thereby bringing happiness.”
If it doesn’t bring you happiness, it’s not a blessing by this definition from dictionary.com. Let’s look at some other definitions from various sources:
-something promoting or contributing to happiness, well-being, or prosperity; a boon.
-a thing conducive to happiness or welfare
-a beneficial thing for which one is grateful; something that brings well-being
Happiness is a subjective thing, which in turn, means that something can be a blessing to one person and not to another, therefore, a blessing is subjective. Some children contribute to wellbeing and welfare and some do not, therefore, not every child is a blessing.
If a mother dies while giving birth, do you think that kid is a blessing too? If the mother dies, the father might end up resenting that child. Maybe even to the point that he gives him or her up for adoption. Say then, that an infertile couple adopts the child and everything works out great. The child is a blessing to them, but not to the biological father.
Was Hitler a blessing? He was created by God.
No, it does not go to reason. We could be blessings to our parents, bc blessing is subjective. Even if we are not blessings, that doesn’t make us a curse either.
Curse: A cause of harm or misery.
-something that brings or causes great trouble or harm
-a cause of great suffering and distress
We could’ve been neutral.
That’s a ridiculous thing to say. We don’t have to make the same decisions as our parents.
Putting words in people’s mouths. No one has said anything remotely like that. Some people just don’t want to be parents. That doesn’t mean they think they are curses. As Catharina politely reminded us, having children is one of the functions of marriage. Would you be putting those words in someone’s mouth who was chaste bc they didn’t want kids? I doubt it, and if I am right, I think you are being unfairly harsh, judgemental, and presumptive to say that childless by choice couples think children are curses. If anything, if I had a child, they would be cursed, not be a curse, bc of medical conditions I would pass on.
Yes it certainly could describe a couple using NFP. There is a spectrum of “open to life.” I’ve read on this site multiple times people saying “yes I was mad when I found out I was pregnant but it all turned out okay” and stuff like that. If you’re flat broke and you’ve got 6 kids already that are handfuls, if you don’t want to get pregnant again anytime soon (“spacing” them), if you are a responsible parent then you don’t want to conceive every time you have sex, and you may be apprehensive about having sex, especially if any of them were “surprises.” A couple who uses NFP (abstains during the fertile time) but uses condoms during the infertile time can be much more “free” when they have sex - they waited those couple days just like a couple using NFP exclusively, they are not sex crazed or slaves to their urges, they just are taking extra precautions. They can give themselves freely bc their chances of conceiving are very slim, slimmer than the NFP-only couple.
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catharina
Guest
A secular definition of blessing will not serve the purposes of Faith.
From the Catechism, more accurately, it is stated:
“1078 Blessing is a divine and life-giving action, the source of which is the Father; his blessing is both word and gift.4 When applied to man, the word “blessing” means adoration and surrender to his Creator in thanksgiving.”
That is, in response to God’s gift, humanity is to give thanks.
Blessing, as gift, is not to be rejected or spurned.
Beleieve it or not, Catholics, all Christians,
are expected to accept sorrows as blessings too.
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catharina
Guest
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kristleful
Guest
A blessing from God does not change in its nature according to our individually subjective reactions. Our small minds, influenced by fallen human nature, often prevent us from seeing the full goodness of God’s gifts. We don’t know what is best for us; we can’t see the big picture; we cannot see in this life the infinite preciousness of a single human soul so loved by God that He would sacrifice Himself in its place.
I can’t imagine living life thinking that only some people are blessings. I’m sure you are not saying that a person’s worth is based on how happy he makes his parents when he arrives in the world… And if you agree with me there, it might be helpful to remember that we do not exist merely for ourselves. We are called to give ourselves fully to God and others in self-sacrificial love, no matter how difficult or painful the situation may be. This life is merely a journey, by which we strive toward Heaven through love and sacrifice. Yes, even if a woman loses her earthly life by bearing forth a precious new person, she has gained such a blessing—the opportunity to share in God’s creation of an infinitely loved soul. And she will not regret this as she goes into the arms of her infinitely wise and loving God.
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catharina
Guest
Beautiful post.
Thank you.
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Calliso
Guest
Of course it was self focused. If it wasn’t why would you not allow God to have His way according to His plan. You were engaging in it for the sheer pleasure of it and to the devil with God’s interference.
From the point where I bolded and underlined, that would not describe a couple using NFP. That would describe someone who ditches the condom because it’s not “pleasureable enough”
If there is any hesitating that will happen it will happen before any of this starts. So the scenario above is a misrepresentation and a caricature.
What you are describing are some sex mad couples who did not have their ABC provisions and decided to go ahead with it because they cannot control themselves. The scenario depicts ABCers not NFPers.
Freedom?!!
catholiceducation.org/articles/sexuality/se0002.htmlCode:And you call it freedom?:confused:
Actually no I wasn;t engaging in it for the sheer pleasure of it. I actually rarely got pleasure from sex. It was mostly for the sake of my husband and it made me feel emotionally close to him. Actually while yes God could bypass any contraceptive method one could use that doesn;t mean he will. Just like if I jump of a tall building he could save me but that doesn;t me he will. So no using contraception in that case would not be pointless.
As for Samians post actually it could apply to a NFP using couple. I mean if they are a couple that believes that the only nonsinful options are abstinence or NFP then yes that could be them. Besides even in this very forum I have seen people post on their frustrations with NFP and how they ended up with yet another unplanned pregnancy and so on. They are not real common but they are there. I would agree with you that yes much of the worry and praying would have come before they chose to have sex . Though I imagine if they decided to take the risk they would still likely be hoping and praying that they made the right choice even during the act and after!
Oh and sheesh ABC users are not all sex crazed couples! Also if it was an abc using couple why would they even care about not pulling out? Not that pulling out is very effective but still.
Actually plenty of abc users do have to hold off for several days at a time. Though in those cases it is not because of fertility but because the basic realities of life not to mention many abcs user will still have kids. You seem to be assuming that most of these abc users are all just sex maniacs who couldn;t possibly wait when it comes to sex! I read the article too it actually did make some good points. But just because contraception can be used for bad things for instance sex before marriage and adultry doesn;t mean that abuse it like that.
Also yes it does make sense that people who have kids would stay together more often then people without kids. However that of course doesn;t mean they will have happy marriages. My parents are a great example of this. They tried to stay together for my sisters and I’s sake at least until we were older but things never worked out. So I have to wonder how many of these marriages that stayed together ultimately because of their kids are really happy marriages?
As for people becoming better because they have kids…to paint a broad picture of most or all people becoming better people is silly. You could probably also find tons of people who are horrid selfish parents who only had kids for their own gain or because they thought it was the thing to do. Not everyone becomes a great person because they had kids. But she paints this lovely view of all parents that just isn;t true. I mean if she had said it makes some people better people she would have made a good point as it was she great exaggerated things. Also kids can and often bring ALOT of stress to a marriage. So once again just because a marriage stays together doesn;t mean it is good one.
As for women being more free to be in the workplace. Well now if her husband abuses or cheats on her she may feel less trapped. Not to mention what if her husband died? The author seems to conviently ignore the bad things that could happen in the marriage that would make a woman want to walk away. And if your a woman who has spent your whole marriage at home relying on your husband to provide well its going to be pretty darn hard if you find yourself in a situation where you have to provide for yourself! Especially if you have kids to provide for! Besides from what I have read the whole man works woman stays at home is a more recent thing in history. For most of history both men and women worked though women do have a lot more freedom now in what they can do which is good.
I do agree with her that babies and sex should only be within a marriage. Though I donlt think people should have to abstain if for instance for a particular instance of sex they only want the bonding and not the baby. Of course though I do think people need to accept that if they have sex they risk the chance of getting pregnant.
OK I admit when she got to talking about animals I can;t help but think that I really like animals a lot more then most people. My guinea pigs are my children lol!!
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catharina
Guest
You state your religion as non-denominational,
that is, as Christian. Yes? So again, I’ll mention
that all of Christianity stood AGAINST abc until
the 1930s, then some said oh! it’s ok.
Then more and more and more said the same - ‘oh, ok.’
Yet the Catholic Church does not roll with the times
when to do so is in defiance of faith and morality.
So here we are.
I’m here, you’re there.
Yet the truth does not change.
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samiam1611
Guest
Certainly not. I am not talking about a person’s worth at all. I am just saying that if someone is not open to life, their child is not viewed as a blessing. That being said, it can still turn into a blessing. Or it could be born a blessing and turn into not being a blessing. But that is using the definition of blessing as something that results in happiness and wellbeing. If you are going to use the definition of blessing as “God made it” then sure, everyone is a blessing. Seems like a dumb definition though. Loses its connotation as a positive thing when you say all children are blessings. Was Hitler a blessing?
I agree with catharina though, your post was very sweet, and offers a nice perspective. Just wanted to clear up your [sort of-not really] misunderstanding of my statement.
Thank you for writing and I welcome any other comments you have.
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kristleful
Guest
Yes, Hitler was a blessing when God created him. He wasn’t born already ordering Jews’ murders; he was just as innocent and beautiful of a baby as any other person. We don’t know what good effects he may have had on people before he chose a terrible path, and we don’t know what was deep in his heart at the moment of death. We do know that God did not love Hitler any less than He loves the rest of us, and He still created him even though He foresaw the terrible sins Hitler would commit.
Every person is valuable to God; therefore, every person conceived is a blessing. And yes, everything God creates is a blessing, because it is good (according to God in Genesis). That definition cannot make the term “blessing” lose its positive connotation, because it is based on the fact that what God creates is good. Sin brings evil into the world, but it does not change our fundamental goodness as human beings loved by God. Hence Jesus instructs us to love our enemies and those who do us wrong, because they are still valuable and worthy of love. Likewise, a conceived child who may inadvertently cause one’s life to become more difficult is still very good, valuable, loved by God, and thus a blessing.
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copperblade
Guest
I don’t know specifically. However I’m not exactly sure what your question is about… is it possible to be XY and anatomically female? I know there are some issues with extra chromosomes, if that’s what you mean.
I imagine that classically the Church considers anatomical females to be female and anatomical males to be male… how else would you know?
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Young_Thinker
Guest
Thank you. I see what you are saying, the only way to know for sure is for one to undergo genetic testing.
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benedictus2
Guest
Well, you can’t have it both ways. Either they are or they are not. So take your pick.
If you say they are not, then you yourself are not a blessing and therefore you are a curse.
Okay. A line of cocaine or a shot of heroine makes the addict happy, therefore cocaine and heroine are blessings?
That is true in some instances but not in all instances. In the major things of life, these things cannot be subjective because human perception is limited. What we may dislike at the moment may prove to be our salvation in the end. For example, there are some people who you just like because you gel with them and there are those that rub you the wrong way. And yet the latter is probably what you need to help you grow as a person.
People who dislike children are probably the ones who need to have to children because they are so turned in on themselves that they need another human that will take them out of their self-absorption.
Only in some cases and for a limited application. Alcoholics will think that to be given a gift card to a liquor store is a blessing.
Every child is a blessing. We do not decide that. But I can understand you thinking like that because you are an atheist.
For example in your case, your mother make think you are a blessing and you make even think so yourself. But there are probably some who think that world is better off without you. So which one is right?
Yes. What makes the mother think she has more right to exist than the child? What makes you think the mother has more right to exist than the child?
So?
Besides, what if the father actually treasures the child even more? But in your scenario there is not even that possibility because there is no child to resent or accept in the first place.
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