Can America Save Herself from Catholics?

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Richardols:
Compare the reactionary Gregory XVI with John Paul II. Why might you think that I believe that the latter is right and the former wrong?
It is very difficult to compare writings on different topics during different times.

I have no idea why you believe the latter is right and the former wrong. That is why I am asking you how you know She is right today?
 
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JHutch:
I guess what I expected was clear evidence that one could be both Catholic and a Democrat and Vote for anyone on the Democratic Ticket in good conscience.
In my state, there were many Democrats that one could vote for in good conscience. Vern Humphrey, who posts on this Forum, for example, is a Catholic Republican from the 1st Congressional District. He lost the election, but the man he lost to, a Protestant Democrat, is also pro-life.

And after what went on in Florida with Mrs. Schiavo, I’ll laugh at anyone who, from now on, thinks that the Republican Party is the Pro-Life Party, better in any way from the Democrats, the national leadership of which is certainly pro-choice.
 
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fix:
Again, references?
I gave you one. You can follow the progress of the Church’s recognition of some of the principles of liberalism in the Encyclicals yourself.
Are you claiming the Church now embraces Liberalism?
No more than you would claim that the Church should embrace Reaction.
 
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Brad:
It is very difficult to compare writings on different topics during different times.
Okay.
I have no idea why you believe the latter is right and the former wrong.
And you are proposing the converse? That She is wrong today, but was right 100+ years ago?
That is why I am asking you how you know She is right today?
How do I know? I don’t, absolutely, but I’ve read the progression of ideas expressed by the modern Popes, and I believe that John Paul II better reflects our Church and what its relationship with the world should be than did Popes who wouldn’t even show sympathy to Catholic Poles and Belgians when they were fighting for their independences in the 1848 revolutions.
 
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Richardols:
I reject your characterization of that as “mainstream liberalism.”

%between%
You reject it? Are you saying that you and 5 others are the Democrat party and the governor of Illinois, along with Hillary Clinton, John Kerry, Barbara Boxer, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Howard Dean are just temporary trouble makers?

Can you name a single Democrat elect that has opposed mandatory contraception coverage in health plans by Catholic Charities in Florida?

How many elected Democrats can you name that promote abstinence education over contraception education?

How many elected Democrats want filters on libary internet computers?

How many elected Democrats do not support the policies of Planned Parenthood, the biggest abortion provider and contraception pusher in America?
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Richardols:
No, because it restricts the pharmacist’s freedom of conscience - a liberal concept.
This is good.
 
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Richardols:
And after what went on in Florida with Mrs. Schiavo, I’ll laugh at anyone who, from now on, thinks that the Republican Party is the Pro-Life Party, better in any way from the Democrats, the national leadership of which is certainly pro-choice.
This is simply looking at the world with Democrat-colored glasses. If it were not for Democratic opposition, Terri would be alive today. How many Democrat senators and representatives did we hear speak out publically against what was happening to Terri Schiavo? It was the Democrats that required the language changed in the law that was passed from the Federal Courts “SHALL” review the facts to the Federal Courts “MAY” review the facts in order to get the law passed.
 
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Brad:
You reject it? Are you saying that you and 5 others are the Democrat party and the governor of Illinois, along with Hillary Clinton, John Kerry, Barbara Boxer, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Howard Dean are just temporary trouble makers?

Can you name a single Democrat elect that has opposed mandatory contraception coverage in health plans by Catholic Charities in Florida?

How many elected Democrats can you name that promote abstinence education over contraception education?

How many elected Democrats want filters on libary internet computers?
I don’t keep up with the voting records of individual politicians as closely as you do. I’m assuming that you can also say from your close following of those records that there’s not a Republican who opposes the pro-life agenda.
How many elected Democrats do not support the policies of Planned Parenthood, the biggest abortion provider and contraception pusher in America?
U.S. Representative Marion Berry, of the 1st District of Arkansas, for one. Again, I don’t follow all the voting records of every Congressman as closely as you do.

And, bravo for that. I’m sincerely impressed by the detail you’re willing to go through.
 
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Richardols:
And you are proposing the converse? That She is wrong today, but was right 100+ years ago?
Not at all. The pillar and bulwark of Truth doesn’t suddenly become right just because it is the time that we live in.
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Richardols:
How do I know? I don’t, absolutely, but I’ve read the progression of ideas expressed by the modern Popes, and I believe that John Paul II better reflects our Church and what its relationship with the world should be than did Popes who wouldn’t even show sympathy to Catholic Poles and Belgians when they were fighting for their independences in the 1848 revolutions.
Some will say 150 years from now that Pope John Paul II didn’t show any sympathy for homosexuals. Does that make the Church wrong today?
 
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Brad:
This is simply looking at the world with Democrat-colored glasses.

If it were not for Democratic opposition, Terri would be alive today.
I suggest that the President and the Governor did less than they could have to help her. BTW, your remarks seem awfully like looking at the world with Republican-colored glasses.

I don’t think that short-sightedness or even blindness are the hallmarks of either party exclusively.
 
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Richardols:
I gave you one. You can follow the progress of the Church’s recognition of some of the principles of liberalism in the Encyclicals yourself.
Please post some references.
No more than you would claim that the Church should embrace Reaction.
Church has always condemed the notion that man is above God and that truth changes with time. In other words, moral relativism.
 
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fix:
Church has always condemed the notion that man is above God and that truth changes with time. In other words, moral relativism.
You are right this time.
 
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Richardols:
I don’t keep up with the voting records of individual politicians as closely as you do. I’m assuming that you can also say from your close following of those records that there’s not a Republican who opposes the pro-life agenda.
I only keep up because it affects our lives, our children’s lives, and our children’s children’s lives. Where we start out today we will end up tomorrow if we don’t redirect.
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Richardols:
U.S. Representative Marion Berry, of the 1st District of Arkansas, for one. Again, I don’t follow all the voting records of every Congressman as closely as you do.

And, bravo for that. I’m sincerely impressed by the detail you’re willing to go through.
Well thank God for Berry. However, the persons I named LEAD the Democratic Party (I forget to mention steady Eddy Kennedy - let’s not forget him).

Are there Republicans that are not pro-life? Sure. But they are not driving Republican policy. The leaders are. Frist, Delay, Bush, Santorum and the other leaders in the Senate and the House support pro-life policy. Are they as diligent as I’d like them to be? No. But the guiding policy of the Republican party regarding abortion and euthanasia is pro-life. The guiding policy of the Democrat party regarding abortion and euthanasia is let them die because the party requires the support of pro-“choicers” to win elections.
 
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st_ignatius:
So, why do we not put our words into action? Why do we not write our Bishops and priests and let them know where we stand? Why not tell them where they stand? I have already posted this letter here but I will post it in this discussion as well. I am emailing and will eventually mail all Bishops. Please, feel free to use this letter and email them or mail them yourself.

Dear Bishops,

Greetings in the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ who was stricken for us.

I write this letter with a grief stricken heart and much sadness.

First, I am filled with sadness because of the condition of our most Holy Father Pope John Paul the Second. I will miss him greatly when he leaves this world. Our Holy Father is a true example of what it is to carry the cross in pain and suffering. I only wish our American leaders could also be as our Holy Father.

I also write because we as Christians have allowed the murder of a woman by the name of Terri Schiavo. Surely you have heard of her? Surely you have not been so busy in daily life that you have ignored this case? It seems the Catholic leadership in America has failed us. Bishop Lynch can go to Indonesia to help those who suffer, but he can do nothing to help a woman being murdered under his very nose. Where have our shepherds been in this time of need? Not where they should be. I do realize that not all Bishops because of time constraints etc could have gone to the hospice where Terri lay being murdered. But surely one of you could have gone? Surely one of our “great” leaders could have taken Terri a cup of water? But no…you have denied her water. Even the Romans did not deny our Lord at least something to put on his parched and swelling tongue. " Whatever you do to the least of these you do to me," says our Lord. I pray His words haunt you every day for all of eternity and that you know and realize you have failed in a time of greatest need. This was the time to rise up and let the world now where we as American Catholics stand in terms of life. This was not done.

There are some Bishops who have made statements regarding the death of Terri Schiavo but it was to little to late.

As I told Bishop Lynch, when we are silent in the face of the culture of death, our silence supports this culture. When we are silent we in turn take a stand for Satan. I pray God may grant each of you the needed strength to do what you are called to do. Shepherd the people of God and stand for life no matter the consequences. Are you afraid? Do you tremble in Satan’s presence? Do you fear what others will think of you when you take this stand? Are you afraid to suffer? Do you shrink back from suffering? I pray the answer to these questions is an emphatic NO. If you shirk suffering then why are you Catholic? Remember our Lord and His Passion!!

This Easter I renewed my baptismal vows. The question was asked, " Do you reject Satan?" My answer is yes! And my answer will always be yes. What is your answer to this question? If you answer yes, yet you refuse to stand for life, then you lie not only to yourself but to God to whom you are making this most solemn vow.

For those who spoke out against the murder of Terri Schiavo, I thank you for your words, but sometimes words are not enough. We must take action as the people of God! I urge you, stand for Life, stand for Truth and God will truly bless you. I beg you to take up the cross of suffering, as has our Holy Father. Follow in the footsteps of Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. May His peace and blessing be upon each of you and I pray the conviction of the Holy Spirit be upon your hearts and minds.

In the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Jenifer
I agree with your letter. But I am willing to bet that the Bishop reading it says in his heart, “How dare a meager lay person suggest to me, a Bishop of the Church, that I should have acted any differently than I did.”

In other words, those Bishops that did nothing or said nothing are no different from the Pharisees of Jesus’ day who paraded in their flowing robes, etc.
 
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Richardols:
I suggest that the President and the Governor did less than they could have to help her. BTW, your remarks seem awfully like looking at the world with Republican-colored glasses.

I don’t think that short-sightedness or even blindness are the hallmarks of either party exclusively.
You can correct me if I am wrong. I think we can both agree that the bill proposed by Republicans mandated the federal courts re-review the facts but Democratic opposition forced them to change the language. Representative Sensenbrenner made this clear and he was quite upset about it. This is a fact, not a Republican-bias opinion.

I agree the President and the Governor could have done more (I think you know that - I was the biggest critic of Jeb Bush during the forced starvation fiasco). But they are not the reason that the federal courts did not review the facts. Democrat opposition and judicial arrogance (controlled by liberals that want legislation from the bench) are the reason.

You keep going back to no party being perfect. I completely agree. You can point out all kinds of shortcomings on the Republican party and I will agree with many of them but the fact remains that their leadership supports pro-life measures and the Democrat leadership promotes abortion, euthanasia, and homosexual marriage.
 
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Brad:
their leadership supports pro-life measures and the Democrat leadership promotes abortion, euthanasia, and homosexual marriage.
abortion, yes.
euthanasia, not across the Board. I’ve not heard that Hillary or Kennedy are pro-euthanasia.
homosexual marriage, some do, some don’t. My liberal Representative, and our two Democratic Senators don’t.
 
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Richardols:
abortion, yes.
euthanasia, not across the Board. I’ve not heard that Hillary or Kennedy are pro-euthanasia.
homosexual marriage, some do, some don’t. My liberal Representative, and our two Democratic Senators don’t.
Well, as long as it is only abortion, then I could see that the party is ok.
 
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Richardols:
I’ve not heard that Hillary or Kennedy are pro-euthanasia.
Nor have we heard if they are *anti-*euthanasia either…

But no matter…the SAME reasoning that drives one to think abortion is acceptable is the same that promotes euthanasia.

Life is a burden. Life is too expensive. “Quality of life” outwieghs life, itself. A worldview that says “there isn’t enough”. Embracing our trials and the suffering that accompanies them is viewed as sadist and needless, rather than couragous and meaningful. Life is either useful or not useful, and lacking in inherent meaning.
 
4 marks:
I agree with your letter. But I am willing to bet that the Bishop reading it says in his heart, “How dare a meager lay person suggest to me, a Bishop of the Church, that I should have acted any differently than I did.”

In other words, those Bishops that did nothing or said nothing are no different from the Pharisees of Jesus’ day who paraded in their flowing robes, etc.
To be honest I am sure many Bishops who even happen to read this letter will read it with that attitude. But that is ok. I will continue writing them until they respond. Here is the way I look at it. If Saint Catherine of Sienna could convict the Pope, who is to say we cannot convict at least one mere Bishop with our words? Also, even if not even one Bishop changes his mind, we are still doing what God asks us to do and that it to take a stand for Truth. Something many of our leaders refuse to do.
 
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fix:
Well, as long as it is only abortion, then I could see that the party is ok.
That’s your call. I prefer to look at the candidates individually.
 
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