Can we stop arguing and support each other?

[Duke12VonFalkenburg]

Leo XIII vs. Socialism
“Lured, in fine, by the greed of present goods, which is ‘the root of all evils which some coveting have erred from the faith,’ [socialists] assail the right of property sanctioned by natural law; and by a scheme of horrible wickedness, while they seem desirous of caring for the needs and satisfying the desires of all men, they strive to seize and hold in common whatever has been acquired either by title of lawful inheritance, or by labor of brain and hands, or by thrift in one’s mode of life. . . . [The Church] knows that stealing and robbery were forbidden in so special a manner by God, the author and defender of right, that thieves and despoilers, no less than adulterers and idolaters, are shut out from the Kingdom of Heaven.” —Quod Apostolici Muneris

 

[StudentMI]

Not going to argue over the Pope’s ‘lack of experience’ regarding socialism. Such is irrelevant. But I’ll see your citing St John Paul II and quote from Leo XIII with the words of JPII himself.

Furthermore, in the Church’s teaching, ownership has never been understood in a way that could constitute grounds for social conflict in labour. As mentioned above, property is acquired first of all through work in order that it may serve work. This concerns in a special way ownership of the means of production. Isolating these means as a separate property in order to set it up in the form of “capital” in opposition to “labour”-and even to practise exploitation of labour-is contrary to the very nature of these means and their possession. They cannot be possessed against labour, they cannot even be possessed for possession’s sake, because the only legitimate title to their possession- whether in the form of private ownerhip or in the form of public or collective ownership-is that they should serve labour, and thus, by serving labour, that they should make possible the achievement of the first principle of this order, namely, the universal destination of goods and the right to common use of them. From this point of view, therefore, in consideration of human labour and of common access to the goods meant for man, one cannot exclude the socialization, in suitable conditions, of certain means of production. In the course of the decades since the publication of the Encyclical Rerum Novarum, the Church’s teaching has always recalled all these principles, going back to the arguments formulated in a much older tradition, for example, the well-known arguments of the Summa Theologiae of Saint Thomas Aquinas22.

http://www.vatican.va/content/john-...s/hf_jp-ii_enc_14091981_laborem-exercens.html

 

[OraLabora]

If one doesn’t care to even help the most innocent among us, what can one say?

5 4 3 2 1…abortion! Right on schedule.

Our defense of the innocent unborn, for example, needs to be clear, firm and passionate, for at stake is the dignity of a human life, which is always sacred and demands love for each person, regardless of his or her stage of development.

Equally sacred, however, are the lives of the poor, those already born, the destitute, the abandoned and the underprivileged, the vulnerable infirm and elderly exposed to covert euthanasia, the victims of human trafficking, new forms of slavery, and every form of rejetions.

Pope Francis, Apostolic Exhortation Gaudete et Exsultate, 19 March 2018.

 

[StudentMI]

And Benedict XVI.

In many respects, democratic socialism was and is close to Catholic social doctrine and has in any case made a remarkable contribution to the formation of a social consciousness.

Europe and Its Discontents by Benedict XVI | Articles | First Things

 

[Sarcelle]

Corporations lobby the government all the time to make policies and regulations favorable to them. Think of the defense industry.

They underpay workers so severely that they rely on food stamps. Walmart comes to mind. Meanwhile Walmart makes billions of dollars in profits. Well guess who funds food stamps? We the taxpayers. Walmart knows that its workers can make the difference by relying on public assistance so they underpay their workers and they get away with it. We the taxpayers are subsidizing and enabling Walmart to underpay its workers. It’s corporate socialism. In return for taxpayer support, they ship more jobs to China.

I am for free market capitalism. No bailouts for these corporations. Why is it socialism and welfare for these corporations but no help for the working poor?

 

[Duke12VonFalkenburg]

Equally sacred, however, are the lives of the poor, those already born, the destitute, the abandoned and the underprivileged, the vulnerable infirm and elderly exposed to covert euthanasia, the victims of human trafficking, new forms of slavery, and every form of rejetions.

Yes, I agree. But here’s the thing. Progressive socialist-Marxist policies do not solve these problems. California is a prime example. Drive on down to San Francisco and take a look at the district represented by Nancy Pelosi. Homelessness and drug addiction are rampant. Look at the companies like Tesla fleeing from California and taking their jobs with them.

 

[Duke12VonFalkenburg]

The “labor theory of value” is not what St. Thomas Aquinas taught. As Samuel Gregg documents in his fascinating study of Catholic teaching on banking, For God and Profit: Though influenced by Aristotle, Aquinas rejected “the Philosopher’s” view that those involved in commerce would become obsessed with their own riches and unconcerned with the common good. Instead Aquinas held that it was entirely possible for people to engage in commerce, and with correct intentions such as the desire to help the needy or take care of one’s family. Aquinas invested considerable effort in examining how one determined the justice of a given commercial transaction, how one measured the value of a good, and what constituted a just price. In his view, it was normally the case that the measure of something’s value is the price it would presently fetch “in the market” [secundum commune forum].16 Aquinas’s insight, forgotten by materialists like Marx in the nineteenth century, would be rediscovered in the twentieth by the economists of the Austrian school. Instead of looking at the economy as a vast, mysterious machine intended to build up the wealth of an abstraction (such as the nation, or the race), the Austrians started small, like the Spanish scholastics—with the factors that influence each one of us in his daily decisions about what products to buy, where and how to work, and how much to save or invest. An economic system that refuses to acknowledge how human beings express their moment-to-moment preferences will massively fail to help them achieve their goals. Applied consistently, such a system will yield only famines and tyranny; cobbled together piecemeal, as in the programs of European socialists and left-wing Catholics, such a system grows an ever-larger apparatus of government, hiring ever more managers to tamp down the chaos created by its irrationality and waste.

 

[StudentMI]

Aquinas’s insight, forgotten by materialists like Marx in the nineteenth century, would be rediscovered in the twentieth by the economists of the Austrian school…

And there you lost me. Don’t get me wrong, there are many great Austrian insights. I’m not saying Mises and Hayek and even Rothbard are totally without value, but you do need to read up on the criticisms of the school. For one, their business cycle theory can’t explain certain aspects of depression, as economists from Gordon Tullock to Bryan Caplan have shown.

Also familiar with the whole ‘the Austrians are like the Spanish Scholastics’ line. That argument is more controversial than it seems at first. The distributists have criticized it as have scholars. Just as one example, the scholastics weren’t against regulation and just prices.

Third, you’re not addressing the substance of what JPII said. You went off on a tangent on labor theory of value which while interesting isn’t remotely what JPII was talking about.

By the way where did you copy and paste that from? It’s vaguely familiar.

 

[OraLabora]

Progressive socialist-Marxist policies do not solve these problems.

Which are not the policies of Biden. When Pope Benedict spoke of “democratic socialism” he was referring to Social Democrat parties that are common in Europe, for example the current government in Sweden is led by a Social Democrat. There is also a long tradition in Europe of coalition governments; rarely does a party earn enough seats to form a majority, so they must form coalitions with other governments. The same happens here in Canada when we have a minority government such as now, but we also often have majorities.

In minority/coalition situations, parties have to work together to legislate from the best ideas of the coalition parties (one hopes!).

Even here in Canada Biden would be considered to the right. And we are by NO means a socialist gulag. We are a capitalist country with reasonably robust social programs.

 

[Nepperhan]

Well, as stated tonight on television, the United States is not ‘united we stand’ but more appropriately ‘divided we stand’.

Its great that in a diverse society the country can continue to operate.

 

[CradleRC58]

Was this in a speech by Biden ?

( I don’t own a television and have not for years )

 

[Duke12VonFalkenburg]

Even here in Canada Biden would be considered to the right.

Really? Even after the Biden-Bernie Sanders manifesto and AOC green new deal?

If Biden is considered to be On the Right in Canada I can only imagine how far leftist can be in Canada.

 

[billsherman]

By the way where did you copy and paste that from? It’s vaguely familiar.

It was cut and pasted (without attribution, which is plagiarism) from “The Politically Incorrect Guide to Catholicism.”

The Politically Incorrect Guide to Catholicism - John Zmirak - Google Books

 

[Cathoholic]

PaulinVA (on the divide in America) . . . .

Whats at the root?

Abortion.

 

[Balto1]

Whats at the root?

It’s all the class struggle, same as it ever was. Reducing wealth inequality would end most of the polarization. But the polarization is good for the rich so the rest of us suffer for it.

Some people have the attitude that we ought to raise taxes on people because they have more money.

Well you’ll have to forgive us then, we’re Catholic so we believe this.

Progressive socialist-Marxist policies do not solve these problems. California is a prime example.

Socialist policies would solve the problems. You’re making a pretty basic error by conflating the Democratic Party and socialism though. California’s homelessness and affordability issues are because of capitalism. Read any of the many articles about Wall Street celebrating Biden’s victory or the massive fundraising advantage he had over Trump from financial industry donors. Democrats are a party of capital just like the Republicans, which is why the country is in the state it’s in.

 

[Duke12VonFalkenburg]

California’s homelessness and affordability issues are because of capitalism.

Oh ok… the most socialist State in the Union is suffering because of Capitalism. Ha sure…

Socialist policies would solve the problems.

How? I see people trying to get far away from socialist progressive states such as California and New York. I suppose Green Energy is also not to blame for the state’s power problems too.

All Catholics believe in socialism? Truly?

"Whether considered as a doctrine or an historical fact, or a movement, Socialism, if it remains truly Socialism… cannot be reconciled with the teachings of the Catholic Church because its concept of society itself is utterly foreign to Christian Truth."
-Quadragesimo Anno
Pope Pius XI

 

[Regular_Atheist]

Oh ok… the most socialist State in the Union is suffering because of Capitalism.

I don’t really see how the tech-capitalist nightmare that is California could be considered “socialist.”

 

[RidgeSprinter]

Fortunately, just like when Democrats burned and rioted after Trump’s victory, we take comfort in the fact that Conservatives don’t seem to react quite as foolishly.

I quite remember the reporting of acts against Jews right after the election of Trump

I doubt you’ll see nearly as many pointless topics about Biden. I for one obviously didn’t support the man, but have too busy a life to post new topics at the rate the pro-Biden folks did about Trump.

Oh there will plenty every day. Some posters will not help themselves.

 

[MadeAnew]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.) n

Just a little humor lighten this thread so we all relax

 

[StudentMI]

I don’t really see how the tech-capitalist nightmare that is California could be considered “socialist.”

Exactly, thank you.

All Catholics believe in socialism? Truly?

Are you going to address the JPII and Benedict XVI quotes I shared? And please don’t quote Quadragesimo anno to make points. That document is about as far away from free market capitalism as anything Pope Francis has called for.