Can we stop arguing and support each other?

[OraLabora]

Really? Even after the Biden-Bernie Sanders manifesto and AOC green new deal?

If Biden is considered to be On the Right in Canada I can only imagine how far leftist can be in Canada.

I see nothing in the joint Biden-Sanders task force that will turn the US into a socialist gulag.

If you move as far left as Canada you will still have the means of production in corporate hands (either private or publicly-traded), you will still have a service industry with McJobs that can’t be called anywhere near a “living wage”, the Dow Jones will still operate and drive you crazy at times, and there will still be wealthy oligarchs, rapacious corporations, outrageous CEO salaries, etc. etc.

People conflate progressive policies with “socialism”. It’s not the case in Canada, it’s not the case in modern Europe.

Even our “socialized medicine” is really a single-payer system where the “insurance” is provided by the public sector. Physicians however, overwhelmingly work in private practice (my wife just retired as a family physician so I should know) and though most of their income comes from public insurance, a portion does come from uncovered “extras” such as insurance exams, driver’s licence exams, etc. They run their own clinics, hire their own staff, buy their own supplies. And there’s still room for private insurance companies in the health care sector to fill in where the government doesn’t.

Our big shortfall in fact is pharmacare. That’s more like the US that is tied to employment except those over 65. Except in my province where if you have employment coverage you are obliged to take it, and if you don’t, you’re covered by the public system (with co-pays and deductibles up to a max, this year, of $1144). There is a move to have this across Canada.

We have minimum wages, varying by province, ranging from $11.70 to $16.00 (far north), it’s $13.10 in my province (Québec). Those are Canadian dollars BTW, worth about 77 cents US.

Sanders is probably closer to the Canadian model than Biden.

Here’s a prediction. Biden, like Trump, played to his base to get elected. Biden, will however, govern from the centre or only slightly to the left.

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

After four years of vile insults and everything but the kitchen sink thrown into the faux impeachment charade, they call for unity? Excuse me while I laugh.

Biden governs from the center to center left if and only if the Democrats are denied the Senate majority. As I prefer the center to the progressives, that’s an outcome I can live with.

 

[Feanor2]

The US could learn a lot from Canada.

 

[puer.dei]

Stop. Just stop. You could say that about any political group in the US.

But they won’t.

 

[Balto1]

Oh ok… the most socialist State in the Union is suffering because of Capitalism. Ha sure…

Calling California or any American state socialist is laughable.

How?

By ensuring the needs of of everyone are met. It’s why multiple popes as quoted in this thread have described democratic socialism as a desirable system. Heck, a couple posts up you have JPII getting to the heart of the private vs. personal property distinction that throws people with no knowledge of socialism into conniptions.

All Catholics believe in socialism?

All Catholics believe in progressive taxation (the terrifying spector you describe as “raise taxes on people because they have more money”). Given this is a thread discussing American politics you should start with the USCCB’s Economic Justice for All if you have further questions.

 

[KMC]

After four years of vile insults and everything but the kitchen sink thrown into the faux impeachment charade, they call for unity? Excuse me while I laugh.

How about the Democratic Party start with apologizing for lying about Trump being an agent of Russia, and accusing anyone who questioned that narrative as also being an agent of Russia.

How about they apologize for pretending COVID only is spread at gatherings of Republicans?

How about they apologize for saying “nobody is above the law” when obviously excluded rioting Biden voters from that statement?

How about apologize for looking the other way while FB, Twitter, and Google pretend to be the gatekeepers of truth and science…primarily because it benefited them.

Lastly, if there is to be peace and support for all, how about the adults in the Democratic party put and end to the Trump Accountability Project, and send AOC to her bedroom without dinner until she can behave?

(I’ll come up with others…)

 

[OraLabora]

(I’ll come up with others…)

Why bother?

 

[pnewton]

Can we all take a step back and remember that we are brothers and sisters first

(sigh) After reading just the first couple of dozen posts, I guess not. It is a nice sentiment, though. Perhaps hearts of people will be touched by Christ the King and charity can prevail over politics, at least for some. I am not so naïve as to think all will see the need for conversion of heart.

 

[Victoria33]

Ultimately, the platform of one party is very much anathema to Catholic teaching in my opinion. Oh yeah, preemptively, so is the other’s platform, sure it is. So, common ground is difficult to find.

 

[Annie]

How about instead of asking people if it can be done, which right now seems kind of impossible, we ask, what would need to happen for people to be able to unite?

I think that people are kind of close on goals, but really far apart on how to attain them.

I would also like to say that each side tends not to listen to the other so it seems like everyone is ignoring the concerns that each side has, iyswim.

 

[MikeInVA]

After four years of vile insults and everything but the kitchen sink thrown into the faux impeachment charade, they call for unity?

Let me translate: unity means surrender your values an accept the progressive platform. They are not establishing a middle ground to work from; they just want conservatives to concede.

 

[FrankFletcher]

PaulinVA (on the divide in America) . . . .

Whats at the root?

I’d go back further. The root, if there is one singular root, is disrespect for women. A society doesn’t have abortion, birth control, no fault divorce, mothers without husbands, etc. if it respects women’s true purpose. I should say too that this disrespect comes from both men and women.

 

[Kit15]

On the upside, my husband and I have made plans for a humorous bi-partisan display through a political lawn sign salad next year for our gubernatorial. The neighborhood is pretty mixed so if it makes the majority of people smile, and NOT selectively vandalize it in order to maintain the joke, we’ve done our duty.

(We’ve never done any lawn signs before. I’m indifferent but hubs is a firm believer in the secret ballot and is normally hostile to the idea.)

 

[pnewton]

This is a Catholic forum. Did you join to learn of the faith or to just debate and insult? If it is the latter I don’t understand your need to do so on this thread.

Since you are fairly new, let me stand a witness that the poster you mentions is not petty, but a rather thoughtful poster. One can always go back and read another’s posts to get a feel for how they communicate.

I would also like to say that each side tends not to listen to the other so it seems like everyone is ignoring the concerns that each side has,

That is because listening is not as common as pontificating. The last two presidents in particular have not done well with considering all of America. I hope Biden follows more the example of older presidents than he does the one he served as VP.

 

[Annie]

A society doesn’t have abortion, birth control, no fault divorce, mothers without husbands, etc. if it respects women’s true purpose.

Wow, I never thought about this, but Margaret Sanger and Marie Stopes concentrated on keeping women from getting pregnant, ignoring that maybe society should focus on men’s not seducing/pressuring/forcing women to have sex!

 

[Duke12VonFalkenburg]

I read Laborem Exercens and I honestly don’t see anything in here that would indicate that St. John Paul II would advocate Bernie Sanders socialism. The entire document is really focused on the dignity of human work and the dignity of the worker. It’s criticizing the sort dehumanizing behavior historically shown in the early days of greedy robber barons and captains of industry such as Rockefeller and the others. Who treated human beings as beasts of burden. The problem with capitalism is greedy capitalists who don’t recognize the worth and dignity of human beings. The problem with Marxist inspired socialism is well… Marxist inspired socialism.

“Everybody knows that capitalism has a definite historical meaning as a system, an economic and social system, opposed to “socialism” or “communism”. But in the light of the analysis of the fundamental reality of the whole economic process-first and foremost of the production structure that work is-it should be recognized that the error of early capitalism can be repeated wherever man is in a way treated on the same level as the whole complex of the material means of production, as an instrument and not in accordance with the true dignity of his work-that is to say, where he is not treated as subject and maker, and for this very reason as the true purpose of the whole process of production.“

As for labor. Just because something requires a lot of labor to produce doesn’t make it more valuable. For example let’s say we make a pair of shoes. You box it up and you put a label on it that says “Shoes”. I get athletes to endorse my shoes and I put it in a box but my sticker and logo says “Shooting Stars” . Same labor went into making it but the price of my shoes are triple yours. That’s because demand drives prices far more than labor does. Maybe it’s not fair but that is reality.

Anyways i don’t really understand what you are trying to advocate or what your personal positions are.

You can’t be a Catholic and a socialist. Go and buy the book and give that a read.

 

[StudentMI]

Anyways i don’t really understand what you are trying to advocate or what your personal positions are.

You can’t be a Catholic and a socialist. Go and buy the book and give that a read.

No thanks. I’ve read enough Austrian econ for one lifetime and am familiar with John Zmirak’s work. I get the gist.

I will hit you back with a recommendation, however. Monopoly Capital by Paul Baran and Paul Sweezy. One needn’t be a Marxist to appreciate their insights.

As for my personal positions, no one’s ever asked.

 

[Rockoh22]

Not going to argue over the Pope’s ‘lack of experience’ regarding socialism.

Which socialism has worked? Which Socialist country is the model?

 

[StudentMI]

Which socialism has worked? Which Socialist country is the model?

At least you differentiated different models of socialism. However, I never said any of them have worked.

 

[Duke12VonFalkenburg]

As for my personal positions, no one’s ever asked.

I’m asking.