(Capitol of Armenia) Yerevan Claims Turkish Jet Downed Armenia Plane As Fighting With Azerbaijani Forces Intensify

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The idea of reclaiming lands is not realistic, with such ideas, you can expose the entire nation to threat.
I wonder if there is such a faith in the Armenian church environment.
First century also had Messianism, there was Messianism of Jesus,
Remember the messianism of the first century AD, immediately after Jesus, political missions appeared-Thudas, Simon of Peraea, Athronges. Then later was - Simon bar Kokhba, Moses of Crete.
So many people were killed because of the leaders and those who anointed them as leaders.
But the Messiah was before, very close, recently, the Messiah was not seen in the Savior Christ.
The Messiah called for a spiritual revolution.
The Armenian diaspora is rich in many countries, but often churches are not overcrowded.
Choral chants in the church are incomparable(in its spirit, complexity and vocal level) , but many come only on holidays to the church.
Maybe the conquest of hearts for Christ, and not territorial lands for the earthly kingdom?
I think the idea of reclaiming ancient lands is destructive and disastrous.

Regarding the outside help, unfortunately the Armenians are not alone in the confidence that the whole world will understand and help their will and struggle.

In fact, it seems to me that often super powers have their own national interests, and their own national egoism, and no one will substitute the lives of their citizens - soldiers, if there is no for them some pragmatic great benefit or great national interest.
All the more so if small sparks can grow into unprofitable huge fires.
It can be assumed that Erdogan is outplaying Putin, but it is certainly not profitable for Putin to get involved in a big war, even if there is a Russian military base there.

But look at the interviews of the Azerbaijani and Armenian sides.
Uncompromising insisting of Azerbaijanis about the categorical return of the territory.
From the side of the Armenians, there is no compromise, and there can be no question of giving up a territory.
 
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Pro-Armenian demonstration. Los Angeles.
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…

Patience Wears Thin

Azerbaijanis say they have been patient and that the lack of progress has impacted them far more than Armenia. The 1994 ceasefire has in effect locked Armenia’s hold not only on Nagorno-Karabakh but on seven other Azerbaijani areas bordering the enclave seized by Armenian forces in the 1990s. In all about 20% of Azerbaijan’s internationally recognized land is occupied by Armenia.

They complain that U.N. Security Council resolutions requiring Armenian troops to leave all occupied territories have been ignored by officials in the Armenian capital, Yerevan.

“Azerbaijan was patient for over a generation,” says Robert Cutler of the Canadian Global Affairs Institute, a research institute based in Calgary and Ottawa. “Azerbaijan warned over the years that the use of force would be a last resort if the peace process were exhausted,” Cutler noted in a commentary for Canada’s Hill Times news outlet.

Turkish support

Azerbaijan appears now to have the edge militarily, thanks largely to the backing it has from Turkey.
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So, I found this all informative. They have waited some time, quite a long time and now, wish to force the issue. That issue to get what they perceive and probably under international law, is their territory. Both sides seem determined in their positions.
 
The most important thing in this war is to remain human.
The Caucasian temperament in such a war must be curbed by a civilized approach to prisoners, to wounded enemies, to captured civilians.
During the collapse of the USSR, there have already been cases of terrible atrocities in relation to civilians there.
Even when the parties announce a truce,
in these conditions the temporary truces are very shaky.
In Ukraine, in the war zone, somewhere there were about 30 ceasefires, and they are constantly violated. Constantly.
And even more so, the psyche of rebel officers on the battlefield is different from those in the rear in warm offices.
Judging by the news the Azeris are advancing in the most difficult conditions.
They fight from bottom to top.
In mountainous areas, with mines, with tanks, with the Armenian defense, which I think has been preparing for defense for more than 20 years, it is unbearably difficult.
It is known that the artillery school of Armenians is very strong, but watching the Azeri news, they are gradually advancing.
Perhaps this is the contribution of Turkish instructors that made this transformation from the Soviet to modern strategies army, including discipline in all respects in extreme conditions.
What’s interesting is that Azeri’s drones, unmanned aerial vehicles do not fall even in mountainous areas for no reason, that is the sign of weapons quality.
Looks like those small tetitories that have already been captured by the Azeris are unlikely to be recaptured by the Armenians themselves.
Since the military power has been built for decades, and huge finances, the Armenians can only call for help at the moment. (even if there is enough ammo, good underground tunnels, etc.)
That is why diplomatic peacekeeping intervention is urgently needed, otherwise there will be great losses.
And again, the most terrible thing is the Caucasian temperament in anger.
Scenarios like Bosnian, with massacre and bullying, this should be unacceptable, after or during military operations.
 
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Athanasiy said:
the most terrible thing is the Caucasian temperament in anger.
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Seriously? This is absurd. The Armenians have been oppressed by their Turkish neighbors for centuries. The turkish propensity for genocide is the most terrible thing, and the Armenians should keep that in mind so they don’t let the Turks get in a position to do it again.
 
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I remember from the news those times-1990 th - Chechenia, Karabakh.There was often no civilized aproach.
There was bestial revenge and atrocities.
 
I have mixed feelings, I do understand some sentiments that it’s unfortunate the USSR broke up in such a radical fashion. You probably had some of this then but not as distinct as it has been in the USSR and in the former Yugoslavia in the '90s. Similar. I mean, I understand some of those countries deserved independence, the Baltic Republics. Then, others say Stalin was responsible for divvying up the Republics.
 
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In some regions the power of the soviets designed everything so that later the territorial problem would worsen, and that without them no ethnic problem could be solved.
They installed the conditions for the divide and rule strategy.

 
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And what is going on in Nagorno-Karabakh, now I understand I think, is the Armenians which to protect it because it is an Armenian enclave. My understanding is that the Armenian population likely (without being a history whiz) suffered persecution there. This is a question for a historian, I believe it is asserted it has gone both ways.

Erdogan is a Turkish name but interestingly, his background and ancestry is in Georgia more than Turkey and his ancestors may well have fled Georgia with these kinds of problems.

It’s disturbing all the way around.

We even hear nowadays from time to time, the Roma being harassed over in Europe and this has reached into Southern Europe. By no means, am I talking about Upper Europe at that.

A bit of a different situation, but an alarming situation over in Belarus too:

 
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I do not argue that Armenians are angry fighters and know how to fight.
I read that during the Second World War, two dozen of soviet generals and marshals were Armenians, even the
Admiral of the Fleet (although there are no real possibilities for naval military)
And they know how to fight and get angry, that’s why I’m talking about the importance of civilization and humanity even in conditions when it is very difficult to show them.
On the news, you can hear that the Georgians on the border confiscated the packing of elements to the command posts of the Armenian army, that means that Armenians may be preparing even for a partisan war, as a plan B.
The same thing in the news of the mines of defense of the Azerbaijani side shows a demonstration of strengthening the rear, this already means that a long, protracted war is possible.
To sum it up, you can have disappointing forecasts that ,not just atrocities are possible(which have already taken place there more than once, and from both sides) but long term atrocities.
 
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I am very far from the modern pop songs , but just found out that this famous singer is called-
Cherilyn Sarkisian, and she is Armenian.
There are a lot of distractions from the spiritual in the modern stage, but this song is about the children dreaming of peace.👍

 
“From Two Worlds As A Keepsake” is indeed, an Armenian movie dealing with the topic of pogroms, it is viewable online for free. I don’t think there is anything “bad” in it, as far as language and things like that but it is disturbing (yes, probably some violence)… probably because it deals with things that Garry Kasparov describes below:

PanARMENIAN.Net - 13th world chess champion and head of Human Rights Foundation Garry Kasparov – Russian-Armenian chess grandmaster born in Baku – has said that the starting point of the tragedy in Nagorno-Karabakh is the Sumgait pogrom, which targeted the Armenian population of the Azerbaijani town of Sumgait back in 1988.

Kasparov believes the Sumgait pogroms took history to a new dimension, followed by pogroms in Kirovabad (today’s Ganja), and those in Baku.

“For me the issue definitely resonates on an emotional level. That is why many will see my point of view as biased. I try to be as objective as possible, though, obviously, what we’ve gone through in Baku and experienced living in Azerbaijan sets a mood of its own,” Kasparov has said in a conversation with Echo of Moscow (via Sport24).
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More at link, because, yes, apparently, something very bad happened there not that long ago. And if one reads the article, Kasparov goes on to mention how both Stalin and Lenin too, redrew the maps over there.
 
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Yes, Belarusians rebelled against the dictatorship.
Therefore, this is the double drama of Armenia.
After all, there was also a revolution, with the help of which Pashinyan came to rule, there was also a European dream.
It is possible that the Kremlin will again want to remove the power and put there an absolutely loyal War Party.
to rule.
In this case, the prospects for euro integration will be even darker.
Although now, when there is a scenario from the Middle Ages, it is not appropriate to mention Euro integration.
But why is it unlikely that Putin is now intervening, if we remind Libya and Syria, and if we assume that Turkey can block the Bosphorus, then it is obvious that Russia’s involvement in the conflict is not beneficial in any way.
After all, the BBC, along with many other news agencies does not pander to the Armenian side.
You can remember the story of the British and Oil, you can scream about the lack of Christian solidarity, etc… but it seems to me that the political situation is more on the side of Azerbaijan.
Therefore, it seems that Russia does not fit.
Putin is still not Zhirinovsky.
Zhirinovsky would have been ready to conquer Constantinople.
But Zhirinovsky, by the way, offered Armenia to become a fraternal Russian province instead of an independent state.
 
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I have watched documentaries in Russian language about the Armenian and Azerbaijani pogroms, and there is no doubt that everything was designed and planned under the cover of the KGB.
Otherwise, where was the intelligence?
Where was the army?
Where was the police?
Was all the systems so mapped?
On the eve of the collapse of the USSR, on the eve of the mass impoverishment of the population, these inhuman pogroms took place.
Someone really wanted a massacres and wars.
The central government reported on the successful prevention of interethnic conflicts, in fact, the military were inactive and were connected with a great delay.
Both the Armenians and the Azeris are waiting for Nuremberg, and then both sides believe that the truth will prevail.
Because the people remember the pogroms in 1987, 1988.
But these were the retaliatory revenges.
The Azeris took revenge for their fellow countrymen on the other side.
According to documentaries, the armenian pogroms were carefully planned (Baku, Sumgait)
The authorities were inactive, and even the Soviet courts later punished only a few units of the guilty, although in Azerbaijan itself the pogromists were considered heroes.
The eye-witnesses in the video testimonies said that in some places they put crosses signs at houses where Armenians lived and tortured and robbed and killed them in the evening.
Instead of evacuating, people were advised to stay at home.
And later were dragged out of their apartments and beaten to death.
The Russian population could not save them because they were warned that the same would happen to them.
Therefore some people were afraid to hide Armenians in their homes out of fear, others out of solidarity with the pogromists.
And there the pogroms lasted for week and longer.
Armed gangs were created and they robbed and killed people in the villages.
In the city, later, the military cadets who saw the mutilated corpses fainted even from what they saw, because the murders were sadistic.
Apartments for future victims were found quickly and professionally as if by order.
This suggests that the pogroms were planned and organized.
Even those who tried to escape were stopped by cars and pulled Armenians out of their cars.
Neither the police nor the ambulance did not help the wounded victims.
The army did not intervene, only after the few soldiers were attacked.
Later, relatives, even at the morgues, could not identify the corpses.
The word hooliganism was used in courts proceedings of that time.
And this with massive evidence of organized mass murder.
The minorities were also afraid to testify, even later in the courts they were afraid for their lives.
This is analyzing the past, and now everything is incomparably worse, because not gangs in cities and villages are involved, but national armies on both sides, with artillery, aircraft and tanks.
Now, only the word genocide can be worse than the word pogrom, and how can the world community be able to prevent it?
 
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I was watching a documentary the other day, I was not paying close attention and surprisingly, it opened up talking about NKVD (a Kremlin agency) massacres.

I wished I was watching more closely, I find stuff on the internet talking about “prison massacres” they carried out. I’m not sure if there were outright ethnic ones. Well, this one discussed below was one against political prisoners from other nations.


See, here is one described… so these are very bad, a good deal of history. I hope I’m not veering off topic too much. This subject can be very broad.

People dis Turkey too, rightfully in a lot of cases but in Libya, I do think Turkey has probably been mostly right. The Sudanese Janjaweed militias have been on the other side, those Janjaweed militias are pretty bad and when Darfur was so much in the news in the 2000s, the Janjaweed militias (now RSF, Rapid Support Forces) were blamed for most of those very bad things that happened. My opinion is anyone fighting on their side, has to be on the wrong side.


There is so much to all of this.

It has to be said, the ruler of Sudan, al Bashir has been deposed and is on trial for war crimes, the new Sudan has been pretty hospitable. al Bashir is on lists of Africa’s worst all-time dictators if one looks it up, so you know, quite a negative influence in the region.
 
Athanasiy said:
I remember from the news those times-1990 th - Chechenia, Karabakh.There was often no civilized aproach.
There was bestial revenge and atrocities.
Click to expand...
Beslan school massacre 2004. Taking hundreds of innocent children hostage.
 
If Turkey followed the path of Germany and recognized the genocide, the consequences of the future would be different.
The problem is that today the former empires are driven by the disease of “land-gathering” (including Russia)
They are obsessed with the crazy idea of bringing back the greatness of the past.
What kind of debate among historians can we talk about if in Turkey it is forbidden even to assert about genocide?
An unrepentant past of offender provokes Armenians to revenge.
By the way they were trying to take revenge immediately after the genocide by capturing the organizers and executors, and the story of revenge continues and unfortunately will continue in different forms.
I think we need more presence of European diplomats with advice and solutions.
P. M. Pashinyan calls representatives in Europe, they call for a ceasefire.
The context of the conflict is very complex.
In the event of loss of Artsakh, possible Armenian partisanship may lead to new and ongoing tragedies in the future.
Progress and constructiveness is possible with compromises on both sides.
Azeris and Armenians sooner or later wil have to somehow live next door.
 
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