Cardinal Dolan finds common ground with Obama on guns

[Prodigal_Son1]

Why should this surprise anyone? Dolan has always been notoriously chummy with leftists.

We are not allowed to disrespect the men of the Church on these forums.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Just because men of the Church speak without infallibility on all subjects,. does not automatically make the secular views correct on all subjects.

 

[Northumbrian]

Yeah, we’ve kinda been going over it in the past 530+ posts.

I was invited to give details on what Cardinal Dolan said.

I do not believe I should paraphrase them nor edit them.

Was I wrong to answer this request?

Should I have chosen to ignore it?

 

[Northumbrian]

We are not allowed to disrespect the men of the Church on these forums.

That is also my understanding. I also think that considering that Cardinal Dolan is facing the possible prospect of being the next pope, that should surely be at the forefront of ones mind.

 

[Gricken]

Just because men of the Church speak without infallibility on all subjects,. does not automatically make the secular views correct on all subjects.

You seem to forget that these men, while highly respected. Are in fact still men, and prone to failures of judgement like the rest of us. While the Cardinal’s words should be taken into account. We must also take into account his lack of knowledge when it comes to guns. A lack of knowledge he admits too. I do not encourage people to disregard what clergy say. I encourage people to remember that he is still just a man. A man who has admitted to being unfamiliar with the area he is speaking on.

 

[iamrefreshed]

Everything?

That’s a silly question. What made you think I was talking about everything?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

You seem to forget that these men, while highly respected. Are in fact still men, and prone to failures of judgement like the rest of us. While the Cardinal’s words should be taken into account. We must also take into account his lack of knowledge when it comes to guns. A lack of knowledge he admits too. I do not encourage people to disregard what clergy say. I encourage people to remember that he is still just a man. A man who has admitted to being unfamiliar with the area he is speaking on.

I repeat, just because the men of the Church speak without infallibility on all subjects, does not make the secular view right on all subjects.

The Cardinal qualified his expertise, or lack of. He calls for actions, to be dealt with by those with the expertise. He is familiar with the area of mass shootings, as we all are.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

That’s a silly question. What made you think I was talking about everything?

I misspoke my post, and I thought it seemed to be immediately taken advantage of, so I asked for clarification.

 

[Northumbrian]

I think that a Cardinal, like many great men of the Church, speaks with humility. That, in our overly proud society, may seem like saying that one does not know what one is talking about. Talking about something one knows nothing about is something a man of his position would be very very unlikely to do.

It is even more unlikely that 47 men of the Church in positions of responsibility would do.

Rev. Federico Lombardi, said Saturday that 47 religious leaders have appealed to members of the U.S. Congress “to limit firearms that are making society pay an unacceptable price in terms of massacres and senseless deaths.”

And firearmes besides; the topic is also the Culture of Life and The Culture of Death .

Something that I believe, the Cardinal is better informed upon than myself and pehaps anybody here.

 

[Gricken]

I repeat, just because the men of the Church speak without infallibility on all subjects, does not make the secular view right on all subjects.

The Cardinal qualified his expertise, or lack of. He calls for actions, to be dealt with by those with the expertise. He is familiar with the area of mass shootings, as we all are.

But wouldn’t you agree that his lack of expertise means that his advice on the subject could be worse than the advice of those who do have expertise?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

But wouldn’t you agree that his lack of expertise means that his advice on the subject could be worse than the advice of those who do have expertise?

One doesn’t have to be an expert to see there is a problem. Part of the problem is the accessibility of guns. What type expertise are you requiring?

 

[scipio337]

I was invited to give details on what Cardinal Dolan said.

I do not believe I should paraphrase them nor edit them.

Was I wrong to answer this request?

Should I have chosen to ignore it?

I’m not sure where the invitation came from, but we’ve been going over that very article for quite some time.

 

[Northumbrian]

I’m not sure where the invitation came from, but we’ve been going over that very article for quite some time.

Yes I read the thread and the invitation is only a few posts back.

Now, turning to what the Cardinal said: he cited the Catechism.

If you will permit me, I will posts the refernce from the Holy See itself.

2315 The accumulation of arms strikes many as a paradoxically suitable way of deterring potential adversaries from war. They see it as the most effective means of ensuring peace among nations. This method of deterrence gives rise to strong moral reservations. The arms race does not ensure peace. Far from eliminating the causes of war, it risks aggravating them. Spending enormous sums to produce ever new types of weapons impedes efforts to aid needy populations;111 it thwarts the development of peoples. Over-armament multiplies reasons for conflict and increases the danger of escalation.

2316 The production and the sale of arms affect the common good of nations and of the international community. Hence public authorities have the right and duty to regulate them. The short-term pursuit of private or collective interests cannot legitimate undertakings that promote violence and conflict among nations and compromise the international juridical order.

You are free, of course, to draw your own conclusions.

Howvever, I think that those suggesting that the Cardinal is uninformed, pay closer attention to the citation that he has given, in the context that it was given.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm

ETA for spelling and link

 

[iamrefreshed]

I misspoke my post, and I thought it seemed to be immediately taken advantage of, so I asked for clarification.

I did not know you mispoke your post. I don’t know why you think that was taken advantage of but it would appear to me you may need to thicken your skin a tad. I took what you said at face value.

All good?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I did not know you mispoke your post. I don’t know why you think that was taken advantage of but it would appear to me you may need to thicken your skin a tad. I took what you said at face value.

All good?

Yes, we’re all good, even though you and I seem to have a history of ‘misunderstanding’ each other.

 

[Gricken]

One doesn’t have to be an expert to see there is a problem. Part of the problem is the accessibility of guns. What type expertise are you requiring?

But that isn’t the problem. The real problem is that we take guns from law abiding citizens, and limit what guns they are able to get. This empowers criminals (who have many ways of getting guns) while reducing the power of citizens.

Huh… I guess part of the problem IS accessibility.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

But that isn’t the problem. The real problem is that we take guns from law abiding citizens, and limit what guns they are able to get. This empowers criminals (who have many ways of getting guns) while reducing the power of citizens.

Huh… I guess part of the problem IS accessibility.

Adam Lanza’s mother was a ‘law abiding citizen,’ as was Adam, until he went over the edge.

When a Cardinal speaks on ‘contributions’ to the Culture of Death, he is speaking as an expert.

For me, regulating and controlling guns is part of building a Culture of Life, of doing what we can to protect and defend human life. The easy access to guns, including assault weapons, that exists in our nation has contributed towards a Culture of Death, where human life and dignity are cheapened by the threat of violence. No law, no piece of legislation, will ever be able to protect us from every act of aggression, or from the harm that can come from an individual bent on killing. But, we must do what we can to minimize the opportunities for such acts, by limiting the easy access to guns – and, I would add, by increasing funding for programs to treat those who suffer from mental illness, especially those that might lead someone to commit mass murder.

 

[scipio337]

Yes I read the thread and the invitation is only a few posts back.

Now, turning to what the Cardinal said: he cited the Catechism.

If you will permit me, I will posts the refernce from the Holy See itself.

You are free, of course, to draw your own conclusions.

Howvever, I think that those suggesting that the Cardinal is uninformed, pay closer attention to the citation that he has given, in the context that it was given.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm

ETA for spelling and link

If you noted, that part of the Catechism addresses international arms sales to nations, not the indivudual right to own firearms (unless I read Cardinal Dolan restricting “assault weapons” to the US Military), ie, “They see it as the most effective means of ensuring peace among nations”

Here’s a portion of the Catechism we’ve previously posted:

2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm

As a father, former member of the military, and as all able body are part of the state militia , I have a duty to defend my family and others. The US Constitution gives us “Legitimately (held) authority” to bear arms.

 

[Gricken]

Adam Lanza’s mother was a ‘law abiding citizen,’ as was Adam, until he went over the edge.

When a Cardinal speaks on ‘contributions’ to the Culture of Death, he is speaking as an expert.

So we just assume that everyone will go “over the edge” eventually.

In any case, that doesn’t help your case. People won’t be able to commit those crimes if everyone is armed like they are. It’s deterrence.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

So we just assume that everyone will go “over the edge” eventually.

In any case, that doesn’t help your case. People won’t be able to commit those crimes if everyone is armed like they are. It’s deterrence.

We ‘assume’ there is too easily an accessibility to weapons capable of inflicting maximum damage against a crowd of people.

Where was the ‘deterrence’ at the theater, at the mall, at the school, and against the first responders? All of those particular gunmen killed themselves.