Cardinal Dolan finds common ground with Obama on guns

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Prodigal_Son1 said:
We ‘assume’ there is too easily an accessibility to weapons capable of inflicting maximum damage against a crowd of people.

Where was the ‘deterrence’ at the theater, at the mall, at the school, and against the first responders? All of those particular gunmen killed themselves.
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Yes, there was a deterent at the mall, namely, the Clackamas Mall.

kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html

Note that this was the only recent shooting in other than a “gun free zone”, and the outcome was lives saved.
 
scipio337 said:
If you noted, that part of the Catechism addresses international arms sales to nations, not the indivudual right to own firearms (unless I read Cardinal Dolan restricting “assault weapons” to the US Military), ie, “They see it as the most effective means of ensuring peace among nations”

Here’s a portion of the Catechism we’ve previously posted:

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm

As a father, former member of the military, and as all able body are part of the state militia , I have a duty to defend my family and others. The US Constitution gives us “Legitimately (held) authority” to bear arms.
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The state militia has not been called up. Ex-military grants us no such authority. We do have a responsibility to protect those we can, including our families. There are many ways to protect, without using a gun. Gun controls are viewed as protecting by many in this country.

The Catechism speaks to those who ‘legitimately hold authority.’
For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.
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The constitution is secular, scriptures and that from the Church are spiritual. The same constitution gave men the authority to legislate law. We, as Catholics, know where that has gotten us.
 
Prodigal_Son1 said:
Just because men of the Church speak without infallibility on all subjects,. does not automatically make the secular views correct on all subjects.
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Actually, just because the men of the Church speak in unison on specific secular legislation, hardly makes their views correct or even well informed.

Especially when their spokesman ADMITS no expertise or even displays a layman’s grasp of the pertinent data.

Were you this outspoken against Obama’s HHS mandate when the good Bishops called on all faithful Catholics to do so before the election, Prodigal Son 1 ?
 
scipio337 said:
Yes, there was a deterent at the mall, namely, the Clackamas Mall.

kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html

Note that this was the only recent shooting in other than a “gun free zone”, and the outcome was lives saved.
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The deterrent scared the gunman to the point he took his own life? I don’t think so. The media has drawn in many who sensationalize their involvement in events that make news. Isn’t it odd that no one can verify this story?
 
The catechism that was cited by the Cardinal Dolan and posted by me addresses and rebukes the argument of deterrent fully.

Perhaps I will be discouraged again, should I repost it.

So will refrain.
 
Cor_Cordis said:
Actually, just because the men of the Church speak in unison on specific secular legislation, hardly makes their views correct or even well informed.

Especially when their spokesman ADMITS no expertise or even displays a layman’s grasp of the pertinent data.

Were you this outspoken against Obama’s HHS mandate when the good Bishops called on all faithful Catholics to do so before the election, Prodigal Son 1 ?
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I will follow the men of the Church’s guidance over the secular. His expertise is on the Culture of life and the Culture of death, and it’s being dismissed simply because of a biased view on gun rights. We are to give;
Mat 5:40 And if a man will contend with thee in judgment, and take away thy coat, let go thy cloak also unto him.
Mat 5:41 And whosoever will force thee one mile, go with him other two.
Mat 5:42 Give to him that asketh of thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not away.
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You keep referring to the HHS. You realize that Cardinal Dolan brought a lawsuit against the administration because of the HHS. Was he then speaking outside of his expertise? You don’t have to answer. It’s off topic.
 
Northumbrian said:
Just exactly what did the Cardinal admit to have no expertise in?

As i did: could you provide quotes and no paraphrasing, please?
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Sure:

“I don’t pretend to be an expert on what should be in each specific bill, and I will never be an authority on the number of bullets that should be in an ammo clip, or the proper way to conduct background checks before selling someone a firearm. That’s the proper responsibility of our legislators, and, should constitutional questions arise, of our courts.”
 
Prodigal_Son1 said:
I will follow the men of the Church’s guidance over the secular. His expertise is on the Culture of life and the Culture of death, and it’s being dismissed simply because of a biased view on gun rights. We are to give;

You keep referring to the HHS. You realize that Cardinal Dolan brought a lawsuit against the administration because of the HHS. Was he then speaking outside of his expertise? You don’t have to answer. It’s off topic.
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Oh I’ll gladly answer:

The HHS Mandate advocated Intrinsic Evils. Those are “non-negotiables”. Unlike gun control, Canon Law has long ago established these.

What expertise did he require on this?

But tell me PS1 - did you speak out against the HHS Mandate?
 
Prodigal_Son1 said:
I will follow the men of the Church’s guidance over the secular. His expertise is on the Culture of life and the Culture of death, and it’s being dismissed simply because of a biased view on gun rights.
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So did you speak out against Obama’s evil HHS Mandate like the good Bishops asked you to do?

Or did you decline because of your political bias?
 
Cor_Cordis said:
Sure:

“I don’t pretend to be an expert on what should be in each specific bill, and I will never be an authority on the number of bullets that should be in an ammo clip, or the proper way to conduct background checks before selling someone a firearm. That’s the proper responsibility of our legislators, and, should constitutional questions arise, of our courts.”
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So I was correct in my earlier posts. Thank you.👍
 
Cor_Cordis said:
So did you speak out against Obama’s evil HHS Mandate like the good Bishops asked you to do?

Or did you decline because of your political bias?
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We’re back where we started?

I agree with the Church that there is a necessity for healthcare for all. I agree with the Church that abortion is an intrinsic evil. I agree with the Church on the issue of contraceptives. I agree with the Church that employers should not have to go against their religious views to accommodate the healthcare for all.

I have many posts, and not all are on one subject.

Now, was the Cardinal speaking against his expertise in that instance?

He said it was not his expertise to legislate the changes that he said we need, because of the contribution to the culture of death. No one has to be an expert to realize there’s a problem?
 
2315 The accumulation of arms strikes many as a paradoxically suitable way of deterring potential adversaries from war. They see it as the most effective means of ensuring peace among nations. This method of deterrence gives rise to strong moral reservations. The arms race does not ensure peace. Far from eliminating the causes of war, it risks aggravating them. Spending enormous sums to produce ever new types of weapons impedes efforts to aid needy populations;111 it thwarts the development of peoples. Over-armament multiplies reasons for conflict and increases the danger of escalation.
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2316 The production and the sale of arms affect the common good of nations and of the international community. Hence public authorities have the right and duty to regulate them. The short-term pursuit of private or collective interests cannot legitimate undertakings that promote violence and conflict among nations and compromise the international juridical order.
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BOIL IT DOWN TO A SMALLER NUT PEOPLE.

**Q: **CAN CARDINAL DOLAN PROVIDE ANY GUARANTEE THAT EVERYONE, UPON HIS DIRECTION OR BY DIRECTION OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WILL JUST SOMEDAY “PLAY NICE” AND “BE PEACEFUL.” ???

Q: IS THERE SOME FORM OF UTOPIAN “PEACE” EXISTING NOW (ANYWHERE ON THE PLANET) [OR AT ANY OTHER PREVIOUS POINT IN HISTORY] THAT IS SUDDENLY JEOPARDIZED DUE TO ANYONE’S POSSESSION OF “WEAPONS”? (THE POPE’S SWISS GUARD CARRIES AUTOMATIC WEAPONS BECAUSE OF HOW FULL THE WORLD IS OF PEOPLE LOOKING FOR THAT UTOPIA, NOT FOR THE PEOPLE SITTING HOME EMBRACING THE TRUTH OF “NOW” AND EACH PROVIDING FOR THEIR OWN INDIVIDUAL SECURITY IN THE WAY THAT THEY CAN)

Cardinal Dolan might dish-out great Christian teaching and Catholic wisdom and guidance.
MEANWHILE: he provides very little [TO NONE] in the way of peace and society [EXCEPT BY BEGGING FOR IT], AND VERY LITTLE TO NIL IN SECURITY OF THE “NOW.”

If you succeed in your attempts at gun-control “legislation” you are only FIRST going to succeed in degredation of our current mutual environment beyond common cause, and we will inevitably reach a state where you are MORE likely to meet the CREATOR before HE intended, because you have limited the way in which you can defend yourself.

NEVER FORGET WHO YOU ARE. “CHILD OF GOD” WILL ONLY BE SOMETHING YOU VAINLY CALL YOURSELF IN THE EMPTINESS OF YOUR OWN HEAD IF YOU ARE DAILY COMPELLED, LIKE AN ANIMAL, TO DEFEND YOURSELF. IF YOU THINK THAT IS AN OTHERWISE-AVOIDABLE STATE, CONSIDER WHAT IGNORANT ACTION YOU ARE ATTEMPTING TO COUNTER-MAND IT.

DON’T FOOL YOURSELF INTO THINKING YOU WILL BE PERMITTED TO DECIDE THE ISSUE OF PERSONAL INDIVIDUAL SECURITY ***FOR ANYONE ***UNLESS IT IS IN THE SLIGHT MANNER IN WHICH YOU CAN ASSIST IN REMOVING ANY OF ITS LIMITATIONS.

HUMAN NATURE AND PHYSICS HAVE ALREADY DECIDED, HISTORY HAS ALREADY SO WRITTEN.
 
Prodigal_Son1 said:
We’re back where we started?

I agree with the Church that there is a necessity for healthcare for all. I agree with the Church that abortion is an intrinsic evil. I agree with the Church on the issue of contraceptives. I agree with the Church that employers should not have to go against their religious views to accommodate the healthcare for all.

I have many posts, and not all are on one subject.

Now, was the Cardinal speaking against his expertise in that instance?

He said it was not his expertise to legislate the changes that he said we need, because of the contribution to the culture of death. No one has to be an expert to realize there’s a problem?
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Perhaps you can point out some of those previous threads where you spoke out against Obama’s HHS mandate?

The HHS Mandate involved Intrinsic Evils, these were already established by Canon Law. So exactly what expertise did the Bishops need that wasn’t already established?

Guns are NOT intrinsically evil. There is a vast, VAST area of good that they provide.

And more regulation CAN have adverse effects on people’s safety and even lead to more loss of life. To intelligently discern that requires expert knowledge for specific legislation. No?
 
Least said:
BOIL IT DOWN TO A SMALLER NUT PEOPLE.

**Q: **CAN CARDINAL DOLAN PROVIDE ANY GUARANTEE THAT EVERYONE, UPON HIS DIRECTION OR BY DIRECTION OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WILL JUST SOMEDAY “PLAY NICE” AND “BE PEACEFUL.” ???

Q: IS THERE SOME FORM OF UTOPIAN “PEACE” EXISTING NOW (ANYWHERE ON THE PLANET) [OR AT ANY OTHER PREVIOUS POINT IN HISTORY] THAT IS SUDDENLY JEOPARDIZED DUE TO ANYONE’S POSSESSION OF “WEAPONS”? (THE POPE’S SWISS GUARD CARRIES AUTOMATIC WEAPONS BECAUSE OF HOW FULL THE WORLD IS OF PEOPLE LOOKING FOR THAT UTOPIA, NOT FOR THE PEOPLE SITTING HOME EMBRACING THE TRUTH OF “NOW” AND EACH PROVIDING FOR THEIR OWN INDIVIDUAL SECURITY IN THE WAY THAT THEY CAN)

Cardinal Dolan might dish-out great Christian teaching and Catholic wisdom and guidance.
MEANWHILE: he provides very little [TO NONE] in the way of peace and society [EXCEPT BY BEGGING FOR IT], AND VERY LITTLE TO NIL IN SECURITY OF THE “NOW.”

If you succeed in your attempts at gun-control “legislation” you are only FIRST going to succeed in degredation of our current mutual environment beyond common cause, and we will inevitably reach a state where you are MORE likely to meet the CREATOR before HE intended, because you have limited the way in which you can defend yourself.
Click to expand...

To get your answers, read the Cardinal’s article.
 
Cor_Cordis said:
Perhaps you can point out some of those previous threads where you spoke out against Obama’s HHS mandate?

The HHS Mandate involved Intrinsic Evils, these were already established by Canon Law. So exactly what expertise did the Bishops need that wasn’t already established?

Guns are NOT intrinsically evil. There is a vast, VAST area of good that they provide.

And more regulation CAN have adverse effects on people’s safety and even lead to more loss of life. To intelligently discern that requires expert knowledge for specific legislation. No?
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The use of guns by mass shooters have been intrinsically evil.

Christ said those who would save their lives, will lose their lives. Those who give their lives for His namesake, would save their lives.
 
Prodigal_Son1 said:
The use of guns by mass shooters have been intrinsically evil.

Christ said those who would save their lives, will lose their lives. Those who give their lives for His namesake, would save their lives.
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Pretty sure he wasn’t trying to say we can never defend ourselves.
 
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