Cardinal Dolan finds common ground with Obama on guns

[Lucky7]

Since Cardinal Dolan incorporated this:

It is very difficult for me to believe he is saying anything other than “do something.” Which is not terribly helpful to either side.

Frankly, I fail to see how his comments move the issue forward either for Obama’s and Feinstein’s specific proposals or in favor of NRA’s suggestion that mental health should be more carefully considered, funded, and treated.

But I don’t see it his job to come up with specific proposals. This is not a black and white issue for the Church like abortion or gay marriage. There are shades of gray. The Church does not teach it is wrong to own a firearm. It also does not teach that it is wrong for the government to some sort of control over the access to those guns. There is no definite Church solution/answer to this problem.

All I see Cardinal Dolan saying here is that clearly something needs to be done…the status quo is not working…and that he supports any move towards fixing that problem (which is definitely multi-faceted) including Obama’s. I think that that is okay. If he was vague with something that the Church had a very definitive answer for (or agreed with Obama when he was in direct opposition to the Church), then I’d take issue.

 

[Frank_Drebin]

But I don’t see it his job to come up with specific proposals. This is not a black and white issue for the Church like abortion or gay marriage. There are shades of gray. The Church does not teach it is wrong to own a firearm. It also does not teach that it is wrong for the government to some sort of control over the access to those guns. There is no definite Church solution/answer to this problem.

All I see Cardinal Dolan saying here is that clearly something needs to be done…the status quo is not working…and that he supports any move towards fixing that problem (which is definitely multi-faceted) including Obama’s. I think that that is okay. If he was vague with something that the Church had a very definitive answer for (or agreed with Obama when he was in direct opposition to the Church), then I’d take issue.

The title implies there is someunique ground found between the two men. Talk about misleading. Dolan finds common ground with almost every human ever. For example, not selling guns to minors is something we all sgare common ground on.

Beyond that, it adds nothing of real value to the discussion.

 

[Actaeon]

So we’re moving the goal posts from “background checks” to “registration”? And what is to keep black market sales or straw buyer purchases? It’s already a felony (in most states) to do so.

No, we’re not going to “registration”.

When you purchase a new firearm TODAY it is not registered. The dealer does the background check and then KEEPS a copy of the transfer in their dealership. If a gun is then used in a crime, the serial number is traced to the dealer, who then can provide a record that the gun was sold and to whom.

All I’m saying is that if a person sells that firearm via private sale, they should have to go through a transfer process whereby the DEALER doing the transfer keeps a record of the sale (which means if a gun is used in a crime, the person who originally bought the firearm NEW has a record of the transaction and can prove that they sold the gun to someone who passed a background check).

You’ll notice that NONE of that involves registration of firearms with any government agency (which I am patently AGAINST).

As to what about this system would prevent straw-purchase sales, if you didn’t go through a dealer to transfer a firearm (with a background check) you would have NO proof that you had sold the firearm (thus implication in the case) AND you could be nailed for illegally selling a weapon to another person. Of course, it wouldn’t do anything to stop black market sales, but nothing about background checks will do that anyway.

 

[jay29]

People automatically assume that if background checks are instituted for all gun transactions that everyone would follow it. That’s a laugh. I know many people who smoke weed and drive gassed behind the wheel.

I can agree with background checks in theory if nothing is recorded at all.

No matter how many massacres happen, guns should never be confiscated or restricted from the law abiding citizen.

 

[Least]

The argument can be reduced to the term “control.”

It is wrongful for any government, US or otherwise, to convey to their people the notion that they have any.

More wrongful to say that they can offer any protections (of any kind) at the level of the idividual.

You cannot take-back the idea of a “gun”, as it is a worldly-universal idea now, therefore there will be never be any such thing as “eradication” of firearms. (TERMS, 2012)

If there cannot be any eradication, your attempts at control are just the disarmament of the wrong party, i.e., ME.

You give up your gun, and I’ll get you to give up everything else.

 

[Lucky7]

The title implies there is someunique ground found between the two men. Talk about misleading. Dolan finds common ground with almost every human ever. For example, not selling guns to minors is something we all sgare common ground on.

Beyond that, it adds nothing of real value to the discussion.

True, it does, but that is not the OP’s title.

However, he does mention that he favored the legislation passed in NY; getting handguns off the streets; banning assault weapons; limiting easy access; and increasing funding towards mental health programs.

Perhpas the fact that he can find common ground with a lof of folks shows that this issue is not so black and white. There is no right or wrong answer (although very often that is how it appears when it is debated here).

 

[Least]

I’m reading Pope Benedict’s book on Jesus and he failed to mention this interpretation. I wonder why?

What did St. Peter do when faced with an unjust government? He didn’t take up arms and fight, he requested to be crucified upside down.

St. Peter was not acting against HIS government (although such group was also just constituted from similar beasts that fell from their mothers of the same species as Peter and no more noble a creature).

AND - St. Peter was only given one choice, crucifixion. He (who walks with the LORD on the waves when asked) had the stones to request acquiesence to the whole upside-down part, in deference to our LORD.

 

[10gr8kids]

I read that 40% of criminals obtain guns through private sales. If background checks/registrations were required of all sales, wouldn’t it be reasonable to expect that number to go down?

It may go down some.
Most people I know seem to be a good judge of character though. I don’t believe we’d want to sell a gun to someone who would be likely to commit a crime. I would suspect most people who sell guns to criminals are criminals themselves, who wouldn’t care about breaking one more law.

 

[jay29]

I don’t trust any government that doesn’t trust the common man with firearms. There is a reason why they want guns taken away and it is not the obvious. Democrats use crime as a catalyst to enact the gun control they always wanted way before any of these massacres happened. Criminals are useful idiots to the democrat party.

 

[spartan_cop]

Well, he does currently live in New York.

I don’t know of many people who don’t want background checks. The New York laws, on the other hand are oppressive. Major gun manufactures (Bushmaster is located in upstate New York) have basically said “If you’re going to ban civillians from owning these, we’re not selling themm to your law enforcement”.

Remember: Laws are for the “little” people.

Good for them!! Sound’s like a company who have interest for the people and not just profits. I always laugh at all the gun haters including some members on here. You fear what you do not know. I bet most of you have never even touched a gun let alone shot one. Educate your self and then for an opinion from that education. If you want to know about guns go their source i.e. their makers, local gun shop, online.

 

[spartan_cop]

That sounds like a threat.

How the heck is that a threat? The company has no obligation to sell their merchandise to anyone unless they have a contract. I mean really? Did you really just say that?

 

[spartan_cop]

I wonder if in 1000 years or so, scholars will debate whether the inclusion of a person’s right to use a weapon against someone in the Gospels is original or not.

This business of every conservative value being part of the church is a little dangerous. If you are pro-life, be pro-life.

so having the upper hand to defend you, your family, your friends is not being pro-life? I pray I never use it other than shooting paper and targets, but if it comes down to it I will ask God to make my shot true and just!

 

[spartan_cop]

Because, of course, every gun owner uses it on a person.

Yeah didn’t you hear? The devil made guns for catholics to own and be hypocrites for being anti-abortion and pro-gun. Darn those crazy gun nuts who enjoy shooting people for no reason!!

 

[spartan_cop]

I appreciate Cardinal Dolan and I think he is taking a reasonable approach. However, there is an emphasis that seems to be placed more on gun control by his statement than on mental health issues. I have given this issue as much thought as my brain will allow and I consistently come back to the same place, these recent mass murders, using automatic weapons, have been carried out by seriously, obviously mentally ill people. For some reason, that most of us would never understand even if it was completely spelled out, they wanted to kill people. The Norway massacre killed 77 mostly young people in a country where guns are allowed with permits and controls but normally used for hunting and sport. In Chicago, one of the strongest gun regulated cities in the U.S., there were over 500 violent gun murders in 2012. To my thinking, if gun control was the best answer then Chicago would represent what gun control can accomplish, not the opposite. Frankly, I have come to the conclusion that these seriously mentally ill people, bent on hurting and killing people will do so with or without guns. I have said this before but my birthday is 4/19, the anniversary of the Oklahoma City Bombing that was accomplished by a mentally ill, angry man without a gun. If I thought that gun control would solve this and we would never have another tradgedy like Newtown or Columbine or the theater shooting, I would get behind it completely. Unfortunately, I think that these people will just find another way to destroy human beings.

Don’t forget that under the Clinton administration when we had the AR ban we had two major shootings. LA bank robbery which was done with two fully automatic rifles, which btw have been banned since the 30s, and Columbine.
youtube.com/watch?v=Oqfrr26yTSY

Gun control simply does not work, I live in Chicago and it hasn’t gotten any better.

 

[spartan_cop]

Hadn’t thought of that. Somebody could pass a background check, purchase guns and later turn in to a criminal and commit crime with those guns

It’s called free will and personal responsibility, something that this society has lost because we can’t ever except individual responsibility we always have to blame it on society.

 

[nitesnake]

After reading this article, and the Cardinal’s blog, I see it explained as I view it, and his view of the Church’s teaching on the matter.

Cardinal Dolan finds common ground with Obama on guns

Advocating for Gun Control

He also articulated his view of the focus of the bishops, while citing the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Gee, what a surprise! A left wing socialist american bishop jumps on the political bandwagon of a left wing socialist american president.

 

[meltzerboy]

Gee, what a surprise! A left wing socialist american bishop jumps on the political bandwagon of a left wing socialist american president.

President Obama may be left-wing but I don’t believe he is a socialist despite the fact that many on this Forum call him this. And in what sense do you believe Cardinal Dolan is either left-wing or socialist?

 

[nitesnake]

And in what sense do you believe Cardinal Dolan is either left-wing or socialist?

That’s easy; consider* any* of his statements (and the rest of the USCCB) concerning:

gun laws
cradle to grave entitlements
government forced health care
welfare
illegal immigrants
illegal immigration policy
confiscatory income tax policies
government forced subsidized housing…
and on and on

 

[meltzerboy]

That’s easy; consider* any* of his statements (and the rest of the USCCB) concerning:

gun laws
cradle to grave entitlements
government forced health care
welfare
illegal immigrants
illegal immigration policy
confiscatory income tax policies
government forced subsidized housing…
and on and on

I believe Cardinal Dolan holds such views in accord with Catholic teaching and not with respect to left or right political ideology. If anything, from the perspective of liberals, he appears rather conservative but, again, I don’t think he is really aligned with either political party, since neither party is or should be the foundation of Catholic moral doctrine.

On at least one of the issues you list–government-forced health care–there is room for debate regarding his position.

 

[Schism_hater]

Then why does he support the disarmament of law abiding citizens? Does he think they are bent on killing?

Ah yes, that invaluable term “law abiding citizen”. Which really means anybody before they commit a murder.

Adam Lanza was a “law abiding citizen” until last December 13.