Cardinal Dolan Honors Girl Scouts at Cathedral Mass

[larsont7]

In a way, but not in the way that the Catholic Church is actually organized. The USCCB, like all episcopal conferences, actually has comparatively little power for legislation or governance. It only has specific powers delegated to it by law.

In reality, the highest ranking prelate of the USA would be +William Wakefield Baum, an 86-year-old Cardinal-Priest. There are no American Cardinal-Bishops; +Dolan himself is a Cardinal-Priest, but at 63, he is relatively young, and ranks low on the list of CPs, but above all the Cardinal-Deacons.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cardinals

But your point is taken. +Dolan is highly visible, active and vigorous. I can really see the politician character in him. I still greatly admire him for his doctrinal stances. I don’t know what to say about some of his actions, except to say that there is more than meets the eye.

Yes, highest ranking was a poor choice of words, but he’s definitely the most visible and the one whom the media devotes the most attention (with the possible exception of Cardinal Mahoney, for vastly different reasons). I was thinking more about public perception than actual Church authority. I appreciate the correction, though!

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

Of course, there’s also the fact that Cardinal O’Malley is in Pope Francis’ “cabinet” (for lack of a better term), and Cardinal Dolan isn’t. Theoretical “rank” vs. actual influence would seem to be a tricky thing.

 

[Lucky7]

Two days later and still no response. How long should I give it before I call?

Well, I sent an email to the USCCB regarding the “investigation” on 5/5 and still no response two weeks later. I will call today to see how far I get in obtaining an answer to “whatever happened with the investigation of the Girl Scouts of America?”. Unfortunately, I’m not feeling all that confident that I’ll get a straight answer, if an answer at all.

I will update.

 

[Tigg]

This is what I’m thinking as well. I’m sure Cardinal Dolan is not misinformed about what is going on with the Girl Scouts being President of the USCCB and all.

I do wish the USCCB would at least give the faithful an update as to the status of their investigation though.

This is exactly true. There has been no final determination made by the bishops.

If parents are waiting for the USCCB then they are neglecting their parental responsibility if they have any suspicions about the organization. It is their call to make and their sin of omission if they fail to protect their children from immoral practices!

 

[Tigg]

Perhaps this was happening where you were sending your children for scouting. It wasn’t been happening at our parish scout troop.

The fallacy in this logic is that your daughter (s) are part of a national organization, extending beyond the local level. The national organization is the voice, image and policymaker of the whole. Btw, the pro-choice speakers who were on the agenda of the 2011 Houston National convention has been well documented for anyone wishing to investigate, and further, the backpedaling they tried to do after the 2004 GSA President stated on national TV that GSA has a partnership with PP, would do nothing to assuage my fears as a Catholic mother.

 

[Lucky7]

Well, I sent an email to the USCCB regarding the “investigation” on 5/5 and still no response two weeks later. I will call today to see how far I get in obtaining an answer to “whatever happened with the investigation of the Girl Scouts of America?”. Unfortunately, I’m not feeling all that confident that I’ll get a straight answer, if an answer at all.

I will update.

Left voicemail message today.

 

[Julianna]

I earlier spoke of this. I did not investigate the curriculum because I have no girl in scouting. I checked into all the allegations I could find and was unable to determine guilt. That is it. I posted this earlier. Back in 2012 we went around and around with this quite a bit. No, I did not do a thorough job I would if it was a subject that affected my family. I also decided that since the Church was investigating this, that should be sufficient.

I know it would be ideal if every person *had the time *to investigate every point in the news, every matter of doctrine, every incident of scandal, for themselves. I am happy for you and your choice. However, it is you and it is your choice. The Church has not spoken. Be informed. Make your own decisions for yourself, but be true to your Catholic faith. All of it.

Some people have a lot of time on their hands. I wonder of the USCCB is hiring? I know of a few good people who could help out.

I agree…the Church “is” investigating this, (not as fast as some would like) and that is good enough for me.

 

[Lucky7]

I agree…the Church “is” investigating this, (not as fast as some would like) and that is good enough for me.

Wouldn’t it at least be mentioned on their website then?

 

[Joe_5859]

Wouldn’t it at least be mentioned on their website then?

Not every ongoing thing the USCCB is doing will be located on their website. Further, I think it unlikely that you’ll get much response from any USCCB staff person.

Certainly, parents need to make their own prudential judgments in the mean time. But I think we should avoid blanket condemnations at this point. One can exercise their parental prudence by avoiding the Girl Scouts if they think it best without also condemning the whole group and wagging their fingers at Catholics who still feel comfortable with the organization.

 

[pnewton]

The fallacy in this logic is that your daughter (s) are part of a national organization, extending beyond the local level…

The person you responded to made a statement, an observation, not an argument, so there can be no fallacy where logic was not applied. Whether or not this data is relevant depends on the goals of the parent. If the goal is to protect the daughter, then it is very relevant that the specific troop is free of any association of abortion or promotion of sexual immorality. In fact, it is the only thing relevant to that goal. What happened at a convention two years ago is not relevant.

I think this parent can hardly be mistaken for making a decision based on immediate and local circumstances. After all, that is exactly what Cardinal Dolan did.

 

[Lucky7]

Not every ongoing thing the USCCB is doing will be located on their website. Further, I think it unlikely that you’ll get much response from any USCCB staff person.

Certainly, parents need to make their own prudential judgments in the mean time. But I think we should avoid blanket condemnations at this point. One can exercise their parental prudence by avoiding the Girl Scouts if they think it best without also condemning the whole group and wagging their fingers at Catholics who still feel comfortable with the organization.

Perhaps not, but one would think that considering how many Catholic parents are concerned about this that there would at least be a note that an investigation is even taking place. There is NO evidence that this investigation is happening. The fact that I get NO response only makes me question it further. Is it that difficult to at least respond with a form letter/email regarding the issue? Something just doesn’t seem right here.

I’m not on the bandwagon at wagging fingers at any parent. I am not even a parent. My main concern is if there is an investigation, where is it? What has happened? It’s been a year since it was reported that it started. No conclusions yet? Is this a USCCB priority or not?

 

[Joe_5859]

Perhaps not, but one would think that considering how many Catholic parents are concerned about this that there would at least be a note that an investigation is even taking place. There is NO evidence that this investigation is happening. The fact that I get NO response only makes me question it further. Is it that difficult to at least respond with a form letter/email regarding the issue? Something just doesn’t seem right here.

I’m not on the bandwagon at wagging fingers at any parent. I am not even a parent. My main concern is if there is an investigation, where is it? What has happened? It’s been a year since it was reported that it started. No conclusions yet? Is this a USCCB priority or not?

I cannot really speak for the USCCB, of course, but I can understand them being reticent about responding to every individual inquiry on the matter. Anything they say might be taken and run with even before they are ready to issue some more formal guidance.

I’m not that surprised at the length of time it is taking. The bishops only meet twice a year. They’re not going to rush through it. They’re going to take the time to consult with the people from NFCYM and the NCCGSCF. They’re going to consult with representatives from GSUSA and bring any concerns to them to see what their response is. They’re not just going to review a few websites and make a unilateral proclamation. They’re going to want to make sure they have all the necessary information, that the information is accurate, and to hear the response to that information from those who are vested. And once all that happens, they may even bring it up at one of their meetings, present the data, and vote on it. That will require getting the report to all the bishops in a timely manner so they can review it and know what is going on. Realistically, I would imagine it could mean bringing it up at one meeting and then voting on it at the next one six months later.

A lot rides on what they say. Far better to take time and move cautiously than to move fast and make a mistake.

 

[Lucky7]

I cannot really speak for the USCCB, of course, but I can understand them being reticent about responding to every individual inquiry on the matter. Anything they say might be taken and run with even before they are ready to issue some more formal guidance.

I’m not that surprised at the length of time it is taking. The bishops only meet twice a year. They’re not going to rush through it. They’re going to take the time to consult with the people from NFCYM and the NCCGSCF. They’re going to consult with representatives from GSUSA and bring any concerns to them to see what their response is. They’re not just going to review a few websites and make a unilateral proclamation. They’re going to want to make sure they have all the necessary information, that the information is accurate, and to hear the response to that information from those who are vested. And once all that happens, they may even bring it up at one of their meetings, present the data, and vote on it. That will require getting the report to all the bishops in a timely manner so they can review it and know what is going on. Realistically, I would imagine it could mean bringing it up at one meeting and then voting on it at the next one six months later.

A lot rides on what they say. Far better to take time and move cautiously than to move fast and make a mistake.

What keeps them from saying just that then? Instead, nothing.

 

[Joe_5859]

What keeps them from saying just that then? Instead, nothing.

That I cannot tell you. I don’t disagree with you that it would be nice to get an update.

 

[Lucky7]

That I cannot tell you. I don’t disagree with you that it would be nice to get an update.

You know, I would love an update, but I honestly would settle with a statement on their website that acknowledges the concerns raised by others and says something to the effect that there is an ongoing investigation, to bear with them as they do a thorough and complete job, etc., etc.

I think I’m more upset that there is no evidence that anything is happening.

 

[Joe_5859]

You know, I would love an update, but I honestly would settle with a statement on their website that acknowledges the concerns raised by others and says something to the effect that there is an ongoing investigation, to bear with them as they do a thorough and complete job, etc., etc.

I think I’m more upset that there is no evidence that anything is happening.

I know it’s hard to find evidence that anything is happening, but there is something happening.

 

[Lucky7]

I know it’s hard to find evidence that anything is happening, but there is something happening.

So I guess I should assume that you are “in the know”. Otherwise, I’m not sure how you can say that with certainty.

 

[PeopleB4Things]

My daughter is a brownie in our church’s program. She loves it and feels special when she gets to participate in Scout Sundays and other church events that involve the scouts. The girl and boy scouts provide many services for the church (i.e manning tables or serving tables at church events, cleaning, assisting various ministries thru fundraising, etc). I would find it hard to pull her from a program that brings her so much joy, that involves her in so many aspects of our church community, that teaches her good christian values and that helps our community as a whole. And our troop isn’t the exception. It’s the norm. Scouting teaches responsibility, service, duty and commitment to the community and to the church that far exceeds what is taught in our church’s school and RE programs. Scouting is our faith in action.

Questions to parents of girl scouts since you have a more informed opinions on this subject:
Have you have pulled your daughters from your churches’ programs and how did that go? Were your daughters exposed to any anti-catholic rhetoric or asked to engage in questionable activities as scouts in your parishes? Does the positive faith development of your daughters out weight the personal beliefs of the GS national leader who has done nothing to promote pro-abortion ideology among the girls? Or would you rather have your daughters develop less consistent, exciting, fulfilling & engaging spiritual lives as long as you can make a statement that has no bearing on what’s really happening in the local programs?

There are so many things that parishioners and church leaders say/do that are not quite in line with our faith. We must acknowledge we live in an imperfect world. As long as we advance in our faith, as long as we keep the mission of Christ as our most guiding principle, we can navigate the world’s curves and bumps. We Catholics don’t require total compliance but we do insist on trying our best. If GS is the best way to get my daughter to love her faith rather than think it as a bore or chore as many of her friends do, then I’m doing the right thing for her.

 

[GRATEFULONEjim]

…Certainly, parents need to make their own prudential judgments in the mean time. But I think we should avoid blanket condemnations at this point. One can exercise their parental prudence by avoiding the Girl Scouts if they think it best without also condemning the whole group and wagging their fingers at Catholics who still feel comfortable with the organization.

As I had discussed earlier, in our situation, we did the research and decided that it was not an appropriate venue for our girls based on the curriculum.

It is NOT wrong on our part, as faithful Catholics, to inform other Catholics and chastise GSA for their involvement with pro-choice organizations and their choice of curriculum to pass on to impressionable children.

Catholics need to live their faith…Allowing their children to be part of organizations that are in direct contrast to the teachings of the Catholic Church stands in the way of truly being Catholic and living ones faith.

NO Catholic should feel comfortable with GSA if they are truly living their faith based on the evidence that has been presented.

 

[GRATEFULONEjim]

Questions to parents of girl scouts since you have a more informed opinions on this subject:
Have you have pulled your daughters from your churches’ programs and how did that go? Were your daughters exposed to any anti-catholic rhetoric or asked to engage in questionable activities as scouts in your parishes? Does the positive faith development of your daughters out weight the personal beliefs of the GS national leader who has done nothing to promote pro-abortion ideology among the girls? Or would you rather have your daughters develop less consistent, exciting, fulfilling & engaging spiritual lives as long as you can make a statement that has no bearing on what’s really happening in the local programs?

There are so many things that parishioners and church leaders say/do that are not quite in line with our faith. We must acknowledge we live in an imperfect world. As long as we advance in our faith, as long as we keep the mission of Christ as our most guiding principle, we can navigate the world’s curves and bumps. We Catholics don’t require total compliance but we do insist on trying our best. If GS is the best way to get my daughter to love her faith rather than think it as a bore or chore as many of her friends do, then I’m doing the right thing for her.

There is a much better choice…American Heritage Girls. Any Catholic Church run or sponsored GSA troop should immediately change their affiliation to this group if they wish to be faithful to the teachings of the Catholic Church and not in any way, through fundraisers, or advertising, promote that the Catholic faithful encourage GSA ideals or curriculum.

Our situation was with a local group that was not offered by our parish. We did the research, looked at the curriculum, discussed this with local leadership and group leaders, and decided, based on the results that it was not conducive to raising our children in the faith.