Cardinal Kasper: Sacraments for remarried divorcees only in "special cases"

[Iron_Donkey]

Lets say you all had a daughter and she was married in the church. lets say she was married for some time and had childeren. One day her husband starts beating her and almost kills her…this goes on for some time with no outlook of him stopping…lets say your daughter was still young (20s) and seperated from this man…would you then instruct her to never have relations with anyone else and to live in chastity untill he died which could be 60 years? Those youngchilderent would grow up with out a father or father figure which we know is a bad thing…in most cases. How would you have that talk with your daugher? Honey I know you married with good intentions but if you ever i mean ever fall in love with another man you CAN NOT do anything about it because if you do its hell for you!!!

1. Yes, unless the marriage could be annuled remaining single would be the appropriate course of action.
2. Father figures are of course important, but there are other ways to find them then to commit adultery.
3. Obviously it is incredibly hard on the woman in your scenario, but the fact that someting is hard, no matter how hard it is, cannot negate truth.
4. “Falling in love” and acting on it in your scenario does not necessarily mean hell. Falling in love and acting on it by having sex with someone you’re not married to is grave matter, which can under appropriate conditions lead to hell. If full knowledge and full consent of will are also present, then yes, having sex with someone you are not married to will, if not confessed, lead to hell.

 

[TCEL]

I know what happened he said a radical statement that turned the pheracies away. We know the isntitution that the jewish faith created to that point the question is has the catholic faith fallen into the same trap as the pheracies and the sagucies?

I just have to answer this one. The Pharisees and Sadducees had more lax laws regarding marriage and divorce. Why else do you think the disciples responded to Jesus that it is more expedient not to marry, after he underscores God’s original plan for marriage?

 

[eightydeuce82]

I just have to answer this one. The Pharisees and Sadducees had more lax laws regarding marriage and divorce. Why else do you think the disciples responded to Jesus that it is more expedient not to marry, after he underscores God’s original plan for marriage?

I agree completly it would be best not to marry! The jews allowed it because moses had allowed it. I get that and i know why they responded they way that they did but I think that being god he would have left us some kind of recourse for a marriage invaded by evil other than setting aside personal happiness.

 

[Orogeny]

I agree to a point but we are called to evangelize and to convert the masses. You cant deny that the churches stance on things hasnt caused people to turn away? Martin Luthor remember that guy and the millions that left?

Yeah, I do remember him and he was wrong.

I cant say that they rejected the truth…what they rejected was some guy(s) interpretation of the truth that the church laid down in stone and considered unquestionable to refute.

Really? You don’t really know what all he rejected, do you?

It was someone interpretation of what jesus said many years after he died. We hope and have faith that these things are correct ill give you that but we are human and falable and what was a oral tradition generally up to the 300s? seems a bit touch to me…lets not forget the few years of the “questionable” popes…

The Church is infallible when it comes to matters of faith and morals. Why? Because She is led by the Holy Spirit. Can the Holy Spirit make mistakes? Be real careful with that answer. Remember the one unforgivable sin.

Heres a question do you think only catholics are going to heaven?

No.

Peace

Tim

 

[TCEL]

I agree completly it would be best not to marry! The jews allowed it because moses had allowed it. I get that and i know why they responded they way that they did but I think that being god he would have left us some kind of recourse for a marriage invaded by evil other than setting aside personal happiness.

We have to go through the Cross to get to the Resurrection. We preach Christ, and Him crucified. Here’s a paragraph from an article talking about Pope Francis’ call to evangelization.

The Pontificate of Pope Francis should therefore be seen as a radical call to redouble our efforts for the new evangelization. Radical in the sense that, in our dialogue with others and with the world, we must start with the beginning, Christ’s call to life in Him. This call of Christ is the good news of God’s love and mercy which our world so badly longs for. At the same time, as Simeon foretold to Our Blessed Mother when Our Lord was presented in the temple, it is also “a sign that will be contradicted” (Lk 2:34), in every age and particularly in our “post-Christian” society. This is because the proclamation of Jesus Christ can never be authentic without the proclamation of his Cross. Pope Francis reminded us of this most eloquently in his homily to the cardinal electors on the afternoon following his election: When we journey without the Cross, when we build without the Cross, when we profess Christ without the Cross, we are not disciples of the Lord, we are worldly: we may be bishops, priests, cardinals, popes, but not disciples of the Lord. My wish is that all of us, after these days of grace, will have the courage, yes, the courage, to walk in the presence of the Lord, with the Lord’s Cross; to build the Church on the Lord’s blood which was poured out on the Cross; and to profess the one glory: Christ crucified. And in this way, the Church will go forward (Homily of Pope Francis, 14 March 2013). American Cardinal on the message of this Pontificate The Pope’s radical call to the new evangelization

 

[eightydeuce82]

Ill even add to that…dont you think our creator knows what we need to be happy and that only few are called to live a life of chastity. He knows thats not possible for the most of us…so why would because satan had destroyed your marriage that that person would then be expected to remain in chastity disregarding gods plan which is after all to live our life and reproduce and love god above all else. So because satin derailed your marriage all of a sudden your expected to not fufull your original human existance? why would he do that?

 

[Iron_Donkey]

I know what happened he said a radical statement that turned the pheracies away. We know the isntitution that the jewish faith created to that point the question is has the catholic faith fallen into the same trap as the pheracies and the sagucies?

They did not leave because he was tearing down a hard guideline of their institution that they had grown attached to.

They left because “this is a hard teaching, who can accept it?” Much like the teaching that sacramental consummated marriage is for life.

It is popular these days to present Christ as an anti-authority figure, going against the old established religion. Taking that too far is dangerous. Christ did rebuke some of those in authority, but we must remember how he did so: He called them hypocrites. Empty tombs, pretty on the outside, dead on the inside. They spoke rightly but acted wrongly.

A hypocrite is not a person who teaches incorrectly, but who says one thing and does another. It may be that we have some of the same problems now that Christ pointed out during the incarnation, when He instructed others to do what they were told but not to do what those in authority did.

The solution to hypocrisy is not to stop preaching the truth, but rather to stop acting the falsehoods. And this is what Christ demanded, and demands still. Which is a very different thing from discarding his teachings because we find them hard.

 

[eightydeuce82]

Yeah, I do remember him and he was wrong. Really? You don’t really know what all he rejected, do you?The Church is infallible when it comes to matters of faith and morals. Why? Because She is led by the Holy Spirit. Can the Holy Spirit make mistakes? Be real careful with that answer. Remember the one unforgivable sin.No.

Peace

Tim

I know exactly what martin was doing and why…he may have been wrong but the church wasnt the most holy place at the time…

when I asked the question about catholics what I meant was if I was born a methodist and followed the rules and lived a good life and died but had never taken catholic communion or confessed my sins would I go to hell?

 

[Iron_Donkey]

Ill even add to that…dont you think our creator knows what we need to be happy and that only few are called to live a life of chastity. He knows thats not possible for the most of us…so why would because satan had destroyed your marriage that that person would then be expected to remain in chastity disregarding gods plan which is after all to live our life and reproduce and love god above all else. So because satin derailed your marriage all of a sudden your expected to not fufull your original human existance? why would he do that?

Read Job. Our happiness, while generally a good thing, is not the most important thing in creation. In particular, God’s answer to Job when he asks more or less the same question is, I think, relevant.

That said, I think that it is a false idea that there are people who simply can’t be happy at all if they’re not constantly having sex. I’ve heard many people talk about how they’re not called to chastity, and of course many people are put in a horrible situation through no fault of their own, but I’m pretty sure there is no call to have sex with people you aren’t married to because you really, really, want to. Happiness and joy will have to be found elsewhere in such a case.

 

[eightydeuce82]

I know exactly what martin was doing and why…he may have been wrong but the church wasnt the most holy place at the time…

when I asked the question about catholics what I meant was if I was born a methodist and followed the rules and lived a good life and died but had never taken catholic communion or confessed my sins would I go to hell?

As far as you holey spirit comment is concerned i say this: The church is made up of men and women who are human (falable). these people are in leadership positions in the church and they can ad do make mistakes…bad ones like child molestation, crucades, and alot of other really ****** stuff. Just because they are in the church doesnt make them any less falable. But how can that be the church is lead by the holy spirit? I do believe the church is lead by the holy spirit and I believe that god established my church. What I dont believe is that men and women in the church including up to the pope have made all the right decisions and at times have guided the holy church down the wrong path.

if you dont think at any time people who were founding this church messed up or got something wrong then i dont know what to think…does it mean its any less holy? I dont think so but I know we screw things up its what we do and to think that just because someone coind the whole holy spirit inspired term that someone down that line may hae either interpereted something to hars or too lenient is wishfull thinking.

 

[eightydeuce82]

Read Job. Our happiness, while generally a good thing, is not the most important thing in creation. In particular, God’s answer to Job when he asks more or less the same question is, I think, relevant.

That said, I think that it is a false idea that there are people who simply can’t be happy at all if they’re not constantly having sex. I’ve heard many people talk about how they’re not called to chastity, and of course many people are put in a horrible situation through no fault of their own, but I’m pretty sure there is no call to have sex with people you aren’t married to because you really, really, want to. Happiness and joy will have to be found elsewhere in such a case.

how does the human population continue to exist? It does so through procreation I find it very selective that my parents are going to hell because they remarried but im not because i married properly in the church and follow its teachings. After all i am a bas###d child of an iligetimate marriage. After all the church is at the numbers it is today because of sex? I wonder how many of those people found themselves in a household of parents that are going to hell! I bet its more than you think…weird how that all works.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

As far as you holey spirit comment is concerned i say this: The church is made up of men and women who are human (falable). these people are in leadership positions in the church and they can ad do make mistakes…bad ones like child molestation, crucades, and alot of other really ****** stuff. Just because they are in the church doesnt make them any less falable. But how can that be the church is lead by the holy spirit? I do believe the church is lead by the holy spirit and I believe that god established my church. What I dont believe is that men and women in the church including up to the pope have made all the right decisions and at times have guided the holy church down the wrong path.

if you dont think at any time people who were founding this church messed up or got something wrong then i dont know what to think…does it mean its any less holy? I dont think so but I know we screw things up its what we do and to think that just because someone coind the whole holy spirit inspired term that someone down that line may hae either interpereted something to hars or too lenient is wishfull thinking.

Actions and teachings are different things. Those in the Church are not prevented from sinning, but the teaching of the Church is protected from error.

There may be room for being more strict or lenient, but this would be in matters such as determining what marriages are and are not null, applying Church teaching through cannon law, etc, but not in determining what marriage itself is, i.e. one man and one woman for life.

If someone is actualy sacramentally married and the marriage has been consumated, then they are married until one of the spouses dies. This is a matter of Church teaching and cannot change.

 

[eightydeuce82]

Actions and teachings are different things. Those in the Church are not prevented from sinning, but the teaching of the Church is protected from error.

There may be room for being more strict or lenient, but this would be in matters such as determining what marriages are and are not null, applying Church teaching through cannon law, etc, but not in determining what marriage itself is, i.e. one man and one woman for life.

If someone is actualy sacramentally married and the marriage has been consumated, then they are married until one of the spouses dies. This is a matter of Church teaching and cannot change.

So what happens if tomorrow the church changes its position on marriage and communion? What then…there are no restrictions…would this collaps the enitire faith?

 

[TCEL]

how does the human population continue to exist? It does so through procreation I find it very selective that my parents are going to hell because they remarried but im not because i married properly in the church and follow its teachings. After all i am a bas###d child of an iligetimate marriage. After all the church is at the numbers it is today because of sex? I wonder how many of those people found themselves in a household of parents that are going to hell! I bet its more than you think…weird how that all works.

Is this the underlying reason you are concerned?

 

[eightydeuce82]

Is this the underlying reason you are concerned?

My parents are in a iligitimate marriage according to the church. My brothers and sisters have all divorced and moved on to others…My grandparents are divorced and remarried. I am the only one married and still going strong and faithful (catholic). Am I to think that all my family will burn and i will go to heaven? In the litteral sense of things yes! Do I think this goes against the message christ brought to us i personally do.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

how does the human population continue to exist? It does so through procreation I find it very selective that my parents are going to hell because they remarried but im not because i married properly in the church and follow its teachings. After all i am a bas###d child of an iligetimate marriage. After all the church is at the numbers it is today because of sex? I wonder how many of those people found themselves in a household of parents that are going to hell! I bet its more than you think…weird how that all works.

I cannot possibly comment on whether any particular person is going to hell, and do not wish to do so. Grave matter can be committed without being mortal sin by lack of knowledge or lack of will, and it is not my place to say when it has been.

But yes, sex is important and generally a good thing, but only in it’s proper place. Eating is also important, but no one would defend the practice of eating poison because eating is generally necessary for a person’s survival.

Just because a thing is good when done correctly does not mean that it cannot be abused.

 

[eightydeuce82]

My parents are in a iligitimate marriage according to the church. My brothers and sisters have all divorced and moved on to others…My grandparents are divorced and remarried. I am the only one married and still going strong and faithful (catholic). Am I to think that all my family will burn and i will go to heaven? In the litteral sense of things yes! Do I think this goes against the message christ brought to us i personally do.

I get a little personal when I know my grandmother who is an amazing woman who remarried…goes to church daily, prays, confesses and lives the life of a good catholic woman has been denied communion for over 50 years and if she dies tomorrow dispite living such a wonderful life will go to hell. Does this sould christ like?

 

[TCEL]

My parents are in a iligitimate marriage according to the church. My brothers and sisters have all divorced and moved on to others…My grandparents are divorced and remarried. I am the only one married and still going strong and faithful (catholic). Am I to think that all my family will burn and i will go to heaven? In the litteral sense of things yes! Do I think this goes against the message christ brought to us i personally do.

That’s a terrible burden. Have you talked with a priest about your concerns for your family? He might be able to give you some spiritual guidance.

If it’s worth anything, someone I love very much is in open rebellion against the Church. I walk with this person every day in my heart, and cry out to God on his/her behalf. In a strange way, this person was partly responsible for triggering my own deeper conversion, and a key player in one of my own “dark nights.” It’s hard for me to describe, but it was where I first experienced just a tiny bit of the cross. I do not know the exact situation of you or your family members, which is why it might be helpful to speak with a priest.

 

[eightydeuce82]

That’s a terrible burden. Have you talked with a priest about your concerns for your family? He might be able to give you some spiritual guidance.

If it’s worth anything, someone I love very much is in open rebellion against the Church. I walk with this person every day in my heart, and cry out to God on his/her behalf. In a strange way, this person was partly responsible for triggering my own deeper conversion, and a key player in one of my own “dark nights.” It’s hard for me to describe, but it was where I first experienced just a tiny bit of the cross. I do not know the exact situation of you or your family members, which is why it might be helpful to speak with a priest.

I have spoken with my priest…these people are why I am a catholic. My grandmother in particular is the rock our family has been built on. I talk with my priest every month for a few hours on a regular schedule. We are working on me becoming a deacon in the church but I do like to see what others think that have been doing this much longer than me…the typical response is sorry dude I guess your spending your time in heaven with out your family.

 

[TCEL]

I have spoken with my priest…these people are why I am a catholic. My grandmother in particular is the rock our family has been built on. I talk with my priest every month for a few hours on a regular schedule. We are working on me becoming a deacon in the church but I do like to see what others think that have been doing this much longer than me…the typical response is sorry dude I guess your spending your time in heaven with out your family.

My response to these people is to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling, without compromising on what the Church teaches. This is where a lot of Protestants would have a thing or two with me, but I don’t believe I have an automatic ticket into Heaven. I should say, I don’t presume. All is grace, and God is good. I have hope. I have hope for my family, too, because I know prayers are not wasted. At the same time, I’ve had to square that I’m not God, that there is a truth which can be hard, and that people have free-will. Those are some of the things I’ve learned.