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Cardinal Marx: Church should see positive aspects of homosexual relationships [CWN]
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Blue_Horizon
Guest
At least Paul got his facts right instead of relying on the tabloid Antiochian TimesEven Paul rebuked Peter.
.Both Cardinal Marx and Pope Francis regard “homosexual marriage” as objectively immoral from my limited research, though I am willing to be corrected:
“Human dignity is not state-made, it’s not made by the constitution, which is why neither the constitution nor the state can pass judgment on it… And this also applies to the topic of marriage and the family” (Cardinal Marx, Sept 2015)
However that **does not **mean that:
(a) they see other legal vehicles, that provide limited rights for homosexuals in a long term committed relationship, in the same way;
(b) God’s life (sanctifying grace) cannot be at work in such relationships
(c) State’s cannot in some circumstances justly legislate for things that its Christian citizenry regard as immoral (eg decriminalising Prostitution). This is a prudential judgement based on what is best for the Common Good in a mixed or immature society.
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JosieN
Guest
I was wondering in what way do you think sanctifying grace is at work in a homosexual relationship? The only way it would be at work in my opinion is to heal and repair the soul from the sins committed in the relationship. Thus it would not be at work for their relationship in any other way than to end the relationship which is in opposition to God’s plan and God’s will for them. This only my opinion, and I am only questioning it because it makes no sense to me.At least Paul got his facts right instead of relying on the tabloid Antiochian Times
Both Cardinal Marx and Pope Francis regard “homosexual marriage” as objectively immoral from my limited research, though I am willing to be corrected:
“Human dignity is not state-made, it’s not made by the constitution, which is why neither the constitution nor the state can pass judgment on it… And this also applies to the topic of marriage and the family” (Cardinal Marx, Sept 2015)
However that **does not mean that:
(a) they see other legal vehicles, that provide limited rights for homosexuals in a long term committed relationship, in the same way;
(b) God’s life (sanctifying grace) cannot be at work in such relationships
**(c) State’s cannot in some circumstances justly legislate for things that its Christian citizenry regard as immoral (eg decriminalising Prostitution). This is a prudential judgement based on what is best for the Common Good in a mixed or immature society.
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graciew
Guest
Zz912, " hagan lío"( translated into make a mess) is pretty clear phrase to the Argentina youth,particular group to which the Pope was addressing.
He repeated it in Paraguay,where it is also clear and in that context he said something like an orderly mess which proceeds from knowing Jesús.
Sometimes we just overhear what is not addressed to us,but published. And perpetuate it in bits and pieces …
It is very colloquial,and it is yet even unclear to me if “make a mess” is the appropriate translation to what "hagan lío "sounded .So familiar and even funny coming from a grandfatherly figure as the Pope to our youth and Paraguayan then.
Please do not forget he was our Archbishop…
Let it rest,it was awsome that he could communicate with the youth and have such a warm reception.
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Don_Ruggero
Guest
In justice to the esteemed Cardinal of South Africa, His Eminence has clarified his comment in the aftermath of His Holiness endorsing what had been put forward by the Cardinal President of the German Bishops’ Conference. The Cardinal of South Africa assures that he was not in any way in conflict with Cardinal Marx or the Holy Father but rather underscoring the danger of political correctness run amok.
As also reported by Life Site News, in an amendment to their original story:
*In a series of subsequent Twitter exchanges, Napier clarified that he was not criticizing Pope Francis.
“I said: political correctness is THE major heresy! I didn’t in any way define what is PC or not!” he wrote.
He wrote that Pope Francis’s call for an apology referred also to others “who are marginalised, and who should be included in the Church’s apology for not intervening on their behalf.”
*
His Eminence has made his position clear and since the post is appearing in this particular thread, it must not be made to seem that the two Cardinals are in any conflict whatsoever. The Cardinal of South Africa agrees with the Pope that is need for many apologies to be offered to a variety of people who have been made to suffer.
In turn, as a priest, I have every confidence that the dicasteries of the Holy See will be providing guidance to bishops as well as priests on how these apologies are to be formulated and how they are to be manifested toward the various groups of aggrieved and harmed peoples, to whom pardon and forgiveness will be begged in the context of The Year of Mercy. Certainly we were given guidance in how to proceed in a manner conformed to the mind of the Holy Father and the mind of the Holy See for the various apologies at the time of the Great Jubilee 2000…and I am sure the same will be true now.
lifesitenews.com/news/african-cardinal-rebukes-cardinal-marxs-call-for-apology-to-homosexuals
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Don_Ruggero
Guest
Paul was a fellow Apostle…in many ways exercising, from the hand of the Risen Lord, a prominence in the Early Church that even some of The Twelve did not display. Paul was not someone of a lesser rank of status. Indeed, the Church of Rome celebrates the feasts of Peter and Paul together in one celebration because of the impact each had on the Eternal City.At least Paul got his facts right instead of relying on the tabloid Antiochian Times
One cannot but think of the similarity between The Twelve to Peter and The Sacred College of Cardinals to the Pope. Peter was part of the part of the Twelve and Francis was one of the Cardinals until the election fell to him that made him Successor of Peter.
I am very confident that the Sacred College, united with the Pope, will indeed implement the apologies enumerated in these days – and that before the Year of Mercy concludes. They will have guidance for us – Bishops, Priests, Deacons, Religious and Consecrated as well as the lay faithful – in how to implement at the parish and diocesan levels these manifestation of sorrow and regret.
I am sure they will be in place before the year long commemoration of the 500th anniversary of the Reformation begins on October 31…which we Catholics will be commemorating jointly with our Lutheran sisters and brothers for the very first time for such a milestone anniversary.
I remember when the plans were underway for this at the direction of Pope Benedict in 2007…we were so hoping that it would be he, the German Pope, who would return to Germany in 2017 for this anniversary. Providence has disposed otherwise.
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Don_Ruggero
Guest
Personally, because of how nicely you have written what you have written Gracie W, I will share with you my own rendering of it. I would translate less as “make a mess” as I would “Get in there and mix things up”.
I say that in context. The Holy Father was wanting people to be seized by the excitement they felt and to be driven by that excitement to make real and significant contribution – without over occupation for legalisms and protocols or fear of making changes or doing things differently. It doesn’t have to be done “the way it has always been done.”
If this was a group of older women that young people wanted to become involved with, well mix up how it was organised…do it…make a fresh start. A flow of youth and vibrancy becoming part of groups that were perhaps a bit too staid was a good and welcomed thing. It would form the youth and re-vivify the groups.
To use a Vatican II image we loved so much…to throw open the windows and to let the sun and fresh air come in and get rid of the accretion of dust.
That is how I remember the moment. (I am, however, not Latin American and the language has different nuances in different lands there.)
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MaryT777
Guest
Thank you for this post. How eloquent.
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graciew
Guest
Yes,Father!
And in our hearts,what comes from a " grandfather" cannot be taken but to do good.
Thank you!!
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Don_Ruggero
Guest
Well, and I mean this:
We owe apologies because men and women of the communities of sexual minorities did not find in Catholicism shepherds of great vision and courage – like Archbishop Blaise Cupich, the Archbishop of Chicago who, in recent days said this about the situation in Florida:
ARCHDIOCESE
OF
CHICAGO
'f
Office of
the
Archbishop
835
North
Rush
Street
Chicago,
IL
60611-2030
312,534.8230
archchicago.org June 12, 2016 Jubilee of Mercy Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ, Once again, we must raise our voices to comfort the families and loved ones of a senseless, horrific and preventable tragedy. For you here today and throughout the whole lesbian and gay community, who are particularly touched by the heinous crimes committed in Orlando, motivated by hate, driven perhaps by mental instability and certainly empowered by a culture of violence, know this: the Archdiocese of Chicago stands with you. I stand with you. Let our shared grief and our common faith in Jesus, who called the persecuted blessed, unite us so that hatred and intolerance are not allowed to flourish, so that those who suffer mental illness know the support of a compassionate society, so that we find the courage to face forthrightly the falsehood that weapons of combat belong anywhere in the civilian population. We come together in this time of sorrow, this time of darkness. Yet we walk in the light of solidarity and peace. We walk with the unshakable resolve to change our nation and our world for the better. With my personal pledge of prayers for you.
People have suffered because of how they were treated – even by supposed Christians and by institutions of the Church. Forgiveness needs to be begged of those people who were made to feel less a person or not treated with that full dignity which we are obliged to show.
People have been discriminated against and in so far as it was done by someone in anyway associated with the Church or on account of the Church or because the Church was the excuse – those victims need to be asked if they find it in their hearts to forgive.
And for when we, as a Church, have not rushed to the aid of these people who are created in the image and likeness of God and in whom the Face of God can always be glimpsed…we must ask for their forgiveness.
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Don_Ruggero
Guest
Well and I mean this:
We owe apologies because men and women of the communities identified by Cardinal Marx and Pope Francis did not find in Catholicism shepherds or members of the same great vision and courage like Archbishop Blaise Cupich, the Archbishop of Chicago, who in recent days said this about the situation in Florida:
ARCHDIOCESE OF CHICAGO
Office of the Archbishop
835 North Rush Street
Chicago, IL
60611-2030
Welcome - Archdiocese of Chicago
www.archchicago.org
*June 12, 2016
Jubilee of Mercy
Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,
Once again, we must raise our voices to comfort the families and loved ones of a senseless, horrific and preventable tragedy.
For you here today and throughout the whole lesbian and gay community, who are particularly touched by the heinous crimes committed in Orlando, motivated by hate, driven perhaps by mental instability and certainly empowered by a culture of violence, know this: the Archdiocese of Chicago stands with you. I stand with you.
Let our shared grief and our common faith in Jesus, who called the persecuted blessed, unite us so that hatred and intolerance are not allowed to flourish, so that those who suffer mental illness know the support of a compassionate society, so that we find the courage to face forthrightly the falsehood that weapons of combat belong anywhere in the civilian population.
We come together in this time of sorrow, this time of darkness. Yet we walk in the light of solidarity and peace. We walk with the unshakable resolve to change our nation and our world for the better. With my personal pledge of prayers for you, I am
Sincerely yours in Christ,
- [Signed]
Most Reverend Blase J. Cupich
Archbishop of Chicago
That is eloquent. That is powerful with language and symbol. That the Archbishop of one of America’s greatest dioceses in terms of resources and in terms of people…that Archbishop leaves the other sheep to tend these who are wounded and in need is a powerful image.
That is what we can be sorry for – not having seen in abundance from the Church, all her leaders, all her people, and our whole Church culture these attitudes toward this community until this moment.
These gestures are very powerful language that these people, our sisters and brothers, are created in the image and likeness of God and we embrace that in them…and we embrace them.
People have suffered because of how they were treated – even by supposed Christians and by institutions of the Church. Forgiveness needs to be begged of those people who were made to feel less a person or not treated with that full dignity which we are obliged to show.
*The history of homosexuals in our society is a very bad history because we have done a lot to marginalize them, and so as church and as society we have to say, ‘Sorry’ *
—the Word of Cardinal Marx in Ireland, June 2016
People have been discriminated against and in so far as it was done by someone in anyway associated with the Church or on account of the Church or because the Church was the excuse – those victims need to be asked if they find it in their hearts to forgive.
Sadly it is religion, including our own, which targets, mostly verbally, and also often breeds contempt for gays, lesbians and transgender people. Attacks today on LGBT men and women often plant the seed of contempt, then hatred, which can ultimately lead to violence. Those women and men who were mowed down early yesterday morning were all made in the image and likeness of God. We teach that. We should believe that. We must stand for that. Without yet knowing who perpetrated the PULSE mass murders, when I saw the Imam come forward at a press conference yesterday morning, I knew that somewhere in the story there would be a search to find religious roots. While deranged people do senseless things, all of us observe, judge and act from some kind of religious background. Singling out people for victimization because of their religion, their sexual orientation, their nationality must be offensive to God’s ears. It has to stop also.
----Words of Bishop Lynch of the Diocese of Saint Petersburg
And for when we, as a Church, have not rushed to the aid of these people who are created in the image and likeness of God and in whom the Face of God can always be glimpsed…we must ask for their forgiveness.
*I repeat what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says: that they must not be discriminated against, that they must be respected and accompanied pastorally. /…/ The problem is a person that has a condition, that has good will and who seeks God, who are we to judge? *
------Words of Pope Francis
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Justin_Swanton
Guest
Tell me Father, do you think Joseph Sciambra is deserving of any compassion or merely of censure for presuming to criticise members of the clergy? A short answer will do.
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zz912
Guest
No, but it is putting themselves in a near occasion to sin. They should not remain living together and should limit the amount of private time between them so they are not tempted to sin.
Z
zz912
Guest
From EWTN:
The World Over program with Raymond Arroyo and guests Fr Gerald Murray and Robert Royal, discussing the recent comments by Pope Francis
youtube.com/watch?v=Y8_VBW0a6ow
The World Over program with Raymond Arroyo and guests Fr Gerald Murray and Robert Royal, discussing the recent comments by Pope Francis
youtube.com/watch?v=Y8_VBW0a6ow
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Joie_de_Vivre
Guest
I believe for many it would be a remote occasion to sin and so they are not required to avoid each other, indeed, in many cases it could make them more likely to sin to distance themselves from each other.
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zz912
Guest
I don’t see how you can make that claim. For any couple who had a long-term sexual relationship, to remain living under the same roof would be a temptation to fornication.
J
JosieN
Guest
It is confusing. Mixed messages are everywhere. I would like to share this link and this man’s story for those who are not familiar with Joseph Sciambra’s story.
lifesitenews.com/news/gay-porn-actor-left-it-all-for-jesus-after-near-death-experience
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Havard
Guest
My heart goes out to Joseph. What he speaks of is still going on. I know firsthand… I am from his diocese (Archdiocese of SF)). Archbishop Cordileone is trying to change things, but is opposed on so many fronts, including much of his own presbyteriate. He gets smeared as a homophobe, when in fact he regularly serves at MHR (the Castro district parish that Joseph refers to in his blog) and does a lot of personal outreach there. Please pray for him.
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JimG
Guest
It is sad that when, as Joseph puts it “I decided to walk away from gay,” the priest he turned to discouraged him from doing that. He says “a priest I turned to for advice tried to soothe my concerns and bolster my current lack of faith in the gay gene by assuring me that I was where I belonged and in gay is where I should stay.”
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Don_Ruggero
Guest
I think this statement makes a more worthy addition to this thread that any comment that I could add at this point.
It is from His Excellency, Bishop Robert McElroy.
Bishop McElroy, as Bishop of San Diego, is the bishop of the diocese in which Catholic Answers is located. He is the proper shepherd of the apostolate. The organisation, I am sure, is thankful to have such an extraordinary bishop to work both with and under. I thus have every confidence that the Forum will be both completely supportive and zealously working to implement the thoughts and initiatives of their own canonical Ordinary on all the various issues about which he is so eloquent.
*Bishop McElroy’s Statement on the Orlando Shooting - Monday, June 13, 2016
Once again our nation has been murderously rent by hatred and violence, rooted in a counterfeit notion of religious faith and magnified by our gun culture. The shootings in Orlando are a wound to our entire society, and this time the LGBT community has been specifically targeted and victimized.
It is all too easy when faced with such wanton slaughter and human suffering to reach for a solution which is itself founded in hatred, prejudice and recrimination.
But our Catholic faith demands that we reject such a pathway and embrace with ever greater strength the solidarity of all people who stand as the one family of the God who is Father of us all.
We pray for the many victims in Orlando who were targeted for death simply because of their sexual orientation, and we grieve with their loving families and friends. This tragedy is a call for us as Catholics to combat ever more vigorously the anti-gay prejudice which exists in our Catholic community and in our country. We pray for the Muslim community in our nation, who have acted in unanimity to deplore this act of violence and to reject hatred rooted in a distortion of Muslim faith. We pray for the first responders whose courage and suffering are a witness to the spirit of sacrifice that ennobles American society. And we commit ourselves to a pathway which seeks true security for our nation not only in efforts to identify those who would do us harm, but far more importantly in building a culture which truly embodies and fortifies the equal dignity of every woman and man.*
My thoughts and prayers are very much with the Bishops and my Brother Priests in the United States – along with those laity who are responding to the voices of their shepherds – and who are implementing what our beloved Holy Father and Cardinal Marx have called for.
I shall follow these developments in the United States with very great interest in the remainder of this Year of Mercy.
It is from His Excellency, Bishop Robert McElroy.
Bishop McElroy, as Bishop of San Diego, is the bishop of the diocese in which Catholic Answers is located. He is the proper shepherd of the apostolate. The organisation, I am sure, is thankful to have such an extraordinary bishop to work both with and under. I thus have every confidence that the Forum will be both completely supportive and zealously working to implement the thoughts and initiatives of their own canonical Ordinary on all the various issues about which he is so eloquent.
*Bishop McElroy’s Statement on the Orlando Shooting - Monday, June 13, 2016
Once again our nation has been murderously rent by hatred and violence, rooted in a counterfeit notion of religious faith and magnified by our gun culture. The shootings in Orlando are a wound to our entire society, and this time the LGBT community has been specifically targeted and victimized.
It is all too easy when faced with such wanton slaughter and human suffering to reach for a solution which is itself founded in hatred, prejudice and recrimination.
But our Catholic faith demands that we reject such a pathway and embrace with ever greater strength the solidarity of all people who stand as the one family of the God who is Father of us all.
We pray for the many victims in Orlando who were targeted for death simply because of their sexual orientation, and we grieve with their loving families and friends. This tragedy is a call for us as Catholics to combat ever more vigorously the anti-gay prejudice which exists in our Catholic community and in our country. We pray for the Muslim community in our nation, who have acted in unanimity to deplore this act of violence and to reject hatred rooted in a distortion of Muslim faith. We pray for the first responders whose courage and suffering are a witness to the spirit of sacrifice that ennobles American society. And we commit ourselves to a pathway which seeks true security for our nation not only in efforts to identify those who would do us harm, but far more importantly in building a culture which truly embodies and fortifies the equal dignity of every woman and man.*
My thoughts and prayers are very much with the Bishops and my Brother Priests in the United States – along with those laity who are responding to the voices of their shepherds – and who are implementing what our beloved Holy Father and Cardinal Marx have called for.
I shall follow these developments in the United States with very great interest in the remainder of this Year of Mercy.
- Status