Cardinal Marx: Church should see positive aspects of homosexual relationships [CWN]

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My heart goes out to Joseph. What he speaks of is still going on. I know firsthand… I am from his diocese (Archdiocese of SF)). Archbishop Cordileone is trying to change things, but is opposed on so many fronts, including much of his own presbyteriate. He gets smeared as a homophobe, when in fact he regularly serves at MHR (the Castro district parish that Joseph refers to in his blog) and does a lot of personal outreach there. Please pray for him.
I believe that Most Holy Redeemer still marches in the Pride Parade and their presence is quite visible at the Castro Street Fair. A large percentage of their members are gay.

But you are correct in that Archbishop Cordileone is not fitting in too well in the San Francisco area. There are some who like him very much, but this is a very gay-friendly and liberal area. That isn’t going to change, at least not in my lifetime.
 
I was wondering in what way do you think sanctifying grace is at work in a homosexual relationship? The only way it would be at work in my opinion is to heal and repair the soul from the sins committed in the relationship. Thus it would not be at work for their relationship in any other way than to end the relationship which is in opposition to God’s plan and God’s will for them. This only my opinion, and I am only questioning it because it makes no sense to me.
Josie your difficulties are perhaps due to a less than robust understanding of sin-ology.
Material sin requires temporal restitution but does not offend God. Only formal sin does that.
 
No, but it is putting themselves in a near occasion to sin. They should not remain living together and should limit the amount of private time between them so they are not tempted to sin.
I do not think it is the God appointed task of righteousness older brothers to standover fellow mature persons physically or psychologically as you suggest simply for subjectively judged “occassions”.

This is a counsel mature people apply to themselves only.

This is exactly the interior attitude that caused many Pharisees to be scandalized by Jesus associating with sinners.

Look to yourself instead.
 
Josie your difficulties are perhaps due to a less than robust understanding of sin-ology.
Material sin requires temporal restitution but does not offend God. Only formal sin does that.
An actual sin is an immoral act, committed **with at least some knowledge of its immorality **and some freedom of choice. Formal sin is actual sin; these two terms have the exact same meaning.

An objective sin is an immoral act, without regard to whether it was committed with knowledge and deliberation.** Material sin is objective sin**; these two terms have the exact same meaning.

ronconte.wordpress.com/2015/11/29/formal-or-actual-sin-versus-material-or-objective-sin/

Are you saying homosexuals commit sins without knowledge and deliberation and so it does not offend God? What is the point you are making here and how is it related to sanctifying grace?

I will admit I am not familiar with sin-ology. Maybe you could provide me with a definition as when I looked it up, the definition I found was not related to sin, but had a completely different meaning to it.
 
I believe that Most Holy Redeemer still marches in the Pride Parade and their presence is quite visible at the Castro Street Fair. A large percentage of their members are gay.

But you are correct in that Archbishop Cordileone is not fitting in too well in the San Francisco area. There are some who like him very much, but this is a very gay-friendly and liberal area. That isn’t going to change, at least not in my lifetime.
He’s right where he should be, preaching the truth in love. May God bless him!
 
I do not think it is the God appointed task of righteousness older brothers to standover fellow mature persons physically or psychologically as you suggest simply for subjectively judged “occassions”.
We are called to be priests, prophets, and kings. As prophets, we must speak the truth that comes from God at all times, even if it is offensive to people.
 
We are called to be priests, prophets, and kings. As prophets, we must speak the truth that comes from God at all times, even if it is offensive to people.
Like many folks born after catechesis got tossed out the window, I had no idea that a lot of things I was doing were mortal sins.

Thanks be to God for the spiritual works of mercy (instruction, admonishment). :bowdown:
 
Also, in the spirit of fun and in light of both ComplineSanFran’s comment about ABC and Don Ruggero’s mentioning Bishop McElroy:

eyeofthetiber.com/2015/03/05/grief-counselors-dispatched-to-san-diego-after-new-progressive-bishop-named/

(The Eye of the Tiber is essentially a Catholic The Onion)
Bishop Cirilo Flores was a truly remarkable individual. The tragic cascade of health crises at the end of his life that took him from the Church in pilgrimage at such a relatively young age were truly tragic. His passing was a very great loss…both for the Particular Church which the Holy Father had entrusted to his care as well as the Church in the United States and the Universal Church…he had much to offer in every arena of his influence.

I am utterly confident that Catholic Answers has cordially embraced the Shepherd whom Pope Francis has blessed them with in their new bishop. He is exceptionally gifted. He is also a wonderful visionary who can provide sure guidance and a clear orientation to those entrusted to his pastoral governance. He is fondly remembered from his days in Rome.
 
We are called to be priests, prophets, and kings. As prophets, we must speak the truth that comes from God at all times, even if it is offensive to people.
Perhaps we are offensive because we are offensive - and our take on truth has speed wobbles.We are called to be merciful (todays readings), loving and humble, and maybe the untrained lay “priests” amongst us at times fly too close to the sun.
 
Like many folks born after catechesis got tossed out the window, I had no idea that a lot of things I was doing were mortal sins.

Thanks be to God for the spiritual works of mercy (instruction, admonishment). :bowdown:
I think you mean grave matter, It sounds like you weren’t sinning mortally due to vincible ignorance.
 
An objective sin is an immoral act, without regard to whether it was committed with knowledge and deliberation.** **
JN quoting others by wrote doesn’t mean you understand what they are saying.
Ron has in fact stated the principle he is attempting to elucidate very clumsily and you have fallen for it.

“An objective sin is an immoral act” by itself is in fact a contradiction if we understand “immoral act” as a theologian strictly would.
Ron saves it from an explicit contradiction by adding “without regard to whether it was committed with knowledge and deliberation.”

He is NOT saying knowledge and deliberation aren’t need for an act to be immoral.
He is simply sating that when we look at an actual sin and remove the deliberation and knowledge involved (which MUST be present for a mortal sin) then we are left with what he calls “objective mortal sin”. This is what I refer to as “material sin”.
It is pretty much what the Catechism calls “grave matter,” For children we might say it is merely the “outward deed” without knowing the persons degree of wilfulness or understanding.
Are you saying homosexuals commit sins without knowledge and deliberation and so it does not offend God? What is the point you are making here and how is it related to sanctifying grace?
 
JN quoting others by wrote doesn’t mean you understand what they are saying.
Ron has in fact stated the principle he is attempting to elucidate very clumsily and you have fallen for it.

“An objective sin is an immoral act” by itself is in fact a contradiction if we understand “immoral act” as a theologian strictly would.
Ron saves it from an explicit contradiction by adding “without regard to whether it was committed with knowledge and deliberation.”

He is NOT saying knowledge and deliberation aren’t need for an act to be immoral.
He is simply sating that when we look at an actual sin and remove the deliberation and knowledge involved (which MUST be present for a mortal sin) then we are left with what he calls “objective mortal sin”. This is what I refer to as “material sin”.
It is pretty much what the Catechism calls “grave matter,” For children we might say it is merely the “outward deed” without knowing the persons degree of wilfulness or understanding.
Quote:
Are you saying homosexuals commit sins without knowledge and deliberation and so it does not offend God? What is the point you are making here and how is it related to sanctifying grace?
Here is the link to the word sin. newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm

Is sin-ology a real word? That is all I am asking. I am not arguing about anything, I am just curious. Also,I doubt very much that the Catechism and Pope Francis support the belief that homosexual acts (even without knowledge and deliberation) do not offend God.
 
Is sin-ology a real word? That is all I am asking.
It means “the study” of sin, as is anything with the word “ology” put on it.
I invented it as shorthand, rest easy.
I doubt very much that the Catechism and Pope Francis support the belief that homosexual acts (even without knowledge and deliberation) do not offend God.
Thats good. Doubt when challenged hopefully leads to a sincere effort to remove that doubt either way with research.

I have helpfully indicated to you already the paths you may like to take to do that (the Catechism and trusting the authority of Pope Francis if not me).

God has little interest and receives little disrespect in the mere collision of bodies (homo,hetero, married or unmarried) without intent, never has. It is from the mouth (ie immaterial words from a malcious heart) not the anus (material excrement) that uncleanliness flows.
 
I do not think it is the God appointed task of righteousness older brothers to standover fellow mature persons physically or psychologically as you suggest simply for subjectively judged “occassions”.

This is a counsel mature people apply to themselves only.

This is exactly the interior attitude that caused many Pharisees to be scandalized by Jesus associating with sinners.

Look to yourself instead.
Instructing the ignorant is a spiritual work of mercy. This is Catholic teaching.

2447 The works of mercy are charitable actions by which we come to the aid of our neighbor in his spiritual and bodily necessities.242 Instructing, advising, consoling, comforting are spiritual works of mercy, as are forgiving and bearing wrongs patiently. The corporal works of mercy consist especially in feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and imprisoned, and burying the dead.243 Among all these, giving alms to the poor is one of the chief witnesses to fraternal charity: it is also a work of justice pleasing to God:244

1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old man” and to put on the "new man."85
 
I have helpfully indicated to you already the paths you may like to take to do that (the Catechism and trusting the authority of Pope Francis if not me).

God has little interest and receives little disrespect in the mere collision of bodies (homo,hetero, married or unmarried) without intent, never has. It is from the mouth (ie immaterial words from a malcious heart) not the anus (material excrement) that uncleanliness flows.
The Catechism, Pope Francis and God disagree with you.

2337 Chastity means the successful integration of sexuality within the person and thus the inner unity of man in his bodily and spiritual being. Sexuality, in which man’s belonging to the bodily and biological world is expressed, becomes personal and truly human when it is integrated into the relationship of one person to another, in the complete and lifelong mutual gift of a man and a woman.

The virtue of chastity therefore involves the integrity of the person and the integrality of the gift.

2348 All the baptized are called to chastity. The Christian has "put on Christ,"135 the model for all chastity. All Christ’s faithful are called to lead a chaste life in keeping with their particular states of life. At the moment of his Baptism, the Christian is pledged to lead his affective life in chastity.

2349 "People should cultivate [chastity] in the way that is suited to their state of life. Some profess virginity or consecrated celibacy which enables them to give themselves to God alone with an undivided heart in a remarkable manner. Others live in the way prescribed for all by the moral law, whether they are married or single."136 Married people are called to live conjugal chastity; others practice chastity in continence:

Offenses against chastity

2351 Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.

2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."138 “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."139

To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.

2353 Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children. Moreover, it is a grave scandal when there is corruption of the young.

Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141** tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.**

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

1865 Sin creates a proclivity to sin; it engenders vice by repetition of the same acts. This results in perverse inclinations which cloud conscience and corrupt the concrete judgment of good and evil. Thus sin tends to reproduce itself and reinforce itself, but it cannot destroy the moral sense at its root.

1866 Vices can be classified according to the virtues they oppose, or also be linked to the capital sins which Christian experience has distinguished, following St. John Cassian and St. Gregory the Great. They are called “capital” because they engender other sins, other vices.138 They are pride, avarice, envy, wrath, lust, gluttony, and sloth or acedia.

1867 The catechetical tradition also recalls that there are “sins that cry to heaven”: the blood of Abel,139 **the sin of the Sodomites,**140 the cry of the people oppressed in Egypt,141 the cry of the foreigner, the widow, and the orphan,142 injustice to the wage earner.143
 
It is from His Excellency, Bishop Robert McElroy.

*Bishop McElroy’s Statement on the Orlando Shooting - Monday, June 13, 2016

We pray for the many victims in Orlando who were targeted for death simply because of their sexual orientation, and we grieve with their loving families and friends. This tragedy is a call for us as Catholics to combat ever more vigorously the anti-gay prejudice which exists in our Catholic community and in our country*. We pray for the Muslim community in our nation, who have acted in unanimity to deplore this act of violence and to reject hatred rooted in a distortion of Muslim faith.

I wonder if a reporter has asked the bishop why he feels a Muslim terrorist attack is a call for the Catholic community to combat Catholic anti-gay prejudice that supposedly exists but had no impact whatsoever on this terror attack? And I wonder if someone has asked him why it is not a call for the Muslim community to combat Muslim anti-gay prejudice?
 
Perhaps we are offensive because we are offensive - and our take on truth has speed wobbles.We are called to be merciful (todays readings), loving and humble, and maybe the untrained lay “priests” amongst us at times fly too close to the sun.
The Catholic Church and the Catholic faith contain the fullness of truth.
 
I think you mean grave matter, It sounds like you weren’t sinning mortally due to vincible ignorance.
Correct.

The sinfulness isn’t the only issue, of course. I am glad that I know now what I didn’t know then because I (like you all, I imagine) want to know and love the Lord. 🙂
 
The Catechism, Pope Francis and God disagree with you.

2337 Chastity means the successful integration of sexuality within the person and thus the inner unity of man in his bodily and spiritual being. Sexuality, in which man’s belonging to the bodily and biological world is expressed, becomes personal and truly human when it is integrated into the relationship of one person to another, in the complete and lifelong mutual gift of a man and a woman.

The virtue of chastity therefore involves the integrity of the person and the integrality of the gift.

2348 All the baptized are called to chastity. The Christian has "put on Christ,"135 the model for all chastity. All Christ’s faithful are called to lead a chaste life in keeping with their particular states of life. At the moment of his Baptism, the Christian is pledged to lead his affective life in chastity.

👍

2349 "People should cultivate [chastity] in the way that is suited to their state of life. Some profess virginity or consecrated celibacy which enables them to give themselves to God alone with an undivided heart in a remarkable manner. Others live in the way prescribed for all by the moral law, whether they are married or single."136 Married people are called to live conjugal chastity; others practice chastity in continence:

Offenses against chastity

2351 Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.

2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."138 “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."139

To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.

2353 Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children. Moreover, it is a grave scandal when there is corruption of the young.

Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141** tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.**

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

1865 Sin creates a proclivity to sin; it engenders vice by repetition of the same acts. This results in perverse inclinations which cloud conscience and corrupt the concrete judgment of good and evil. Thus sin tends to reproduce itself and reinforce itself, but it cannot destroy the moral sense at its root.

1866 Vices can be classified according to the virtues they oppose, or also be linked to the capital sins which Christian experience has distinguished, following St. John Cassian and St. Gregory the Great. They are called “capital” because they engender other sins, other vices.138 They are pride, avarice, envy, wrath, lust, gluttony, and sloth or acedia.

1867 The catechetical tradition also recalls that there are “sins that cry to heaven”: the blood of Abel,139 **the sin of the Sodomites,**140 the cry of the people oppressed in Egypt,141 the cry of the foreigner, the widow, and the orphan,142 injustice to the wage earner.143
👍 I often hear this quote repeated
They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.
without the rest of it. It is good to read it all, and have a clear understanding of the teaching.
 
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