Cardinal Marx: Church should see positive aspects of homosexual relationships [CWN]

[philipl]

[Sex] may very well be a small part to them, but to God it’s the only thing that matters.
As a theologian who lectured for many years in the field of moral theology, I do not hesitate at all to state the following:

The part I have bolded and underlined above is utterly indefensible from the perspective of moral theology.

IF the author had qualifed and nuanced his formulation, there would be the possibility of a theological dialogue. He did not. The analytical assessment can only be then upon what the author actually wrote. That is how theology and theological analysis actually works.

To be clear, the formulation, as it was written, is saying that the only thing that is of consequence is the morality of the sexual act.

The only real basis for making an analysis of a person’s thesis is what they themselves formulate. This thesis thus fails.

Since its not a thesis it fails nothing, next just because youre a “theologian who lectured for many years in the field of moral theology” means nothing. Sex outside of marriage is a mortal sin. Period. Please prove me wrong. if you can, then I will mail you 5 lbs of coffee.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Since its not a thesis it fails nothing, next just because youre a “theologian who lectured for many years in the field of moral theology” means nothing. Sex outside of marriage is a mortal sin. Period. Please prove me wrong. if you can, then I will mail you 5 lbs of coffee.

By definition of the Cambridge Dictionary, a thesis is:

“the main idea, opinion, or theory of a speaker or writer, who then attempts to prove it”

As I wrote above: your thesis fails, even simply on its formulation.

 

[JosieN]

This is not really an accurate summary of Church Teaching PL.
Look up the Catechism’s definition of “mortal sin” and see for yourself please.

Here is a link that might help

saintaquinas.com/mortal_sin.html

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

We have a duty to say the truth.

Did I say we didn’t?

It is true, we need to be true and positive witnesses, but we must also be aware of the works of darkness.

**Romans 13:11-14
**
“And do this because you know the time; it is the hour now for you to wake from sleep. For our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed; the night is advanced, the day is at hand. Let us then throw off the works of darkness and put on the armor of light; let us conduct ourselves properly as in the day, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in promiscuity and licentiousness, not in rivalry and jealousy. But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the desires of the flesh.”

Much like abused children have difficulty trusting so too do LGBT people have difficulty trusting Christians after being abused. Sometimes the best you can do towards bringing an LGBT person towards God is helping get them to understand you mean them no harm and that Catholics actually care about them.

 

[JosieN]

Did I say we didn’t?

Much like abused children have difficulty trusting so too do LGBT people have difficulty trusting Christians after being abused. Sometimes the best you can do towards bringing an LGBT person towards God is helping get them to understand you mean them no harm and that Catholics actually care about them.

Christians abuse the LGBT people?

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Here is a link that might help

saintaquinas.com/mortal_sin.html

Exactly so.
Your statement is at odds with this.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

It takes real mercy to speak the truth. One can’t enter Heaven without courage.

Please spare us the jejeune pious platitudes .
It is one thing to understand the concepts of mercy/truth, another to recognise it on the street and in oneself.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Exactly so.
Your statement is at odds with this.

Sorry, I meant PL of course.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

ANY sex outside of marriage is a mortal sin. If a person is a wonderful person, but is cheating on their spouse and dies without changing their ways, they may very well go to hell. God doesn’t say, we’ll all this good out weights the mortal sin. He says, too bad you have earned a place in hell.

Where do you get this stuff from?
Have you received any formal Catechesis since primary school?
That’s a sincere question.

 

[philipl]

[Sex] may very well be a small part to them, but to God it’s the only thing that matters.
As a theologian who lectured for many years in the field of moral theology, I do not hesitate at all to state the following:

The part I have bolded and underlined above is utterly indefensible from the perspective of moral theology.

IF the author had qualifed and nuanced his formulation, there would be the possibility of a theological dialogue. He did not. The analytical assessment can only be then upon what the author actually wrote. That is how theology and theological analysis actually works.

To be clear, the formulation, as it was written, is saying that the only thing that is of consequence is the morality of the sexual act.

The only real basis for making an analysis of a person’s thesis is what they themselves formulate. This thesis thus fails.

I wonder when the day will come that adultery is looked upon as ok as long as love in involved its ok?

 

[OraLabora]

Since its not a thesis it fails nothing, next just because youre a “theologian who lectured for many years in the field of moral theology” means nothing. Sex outside of marriage is a mortal sin. Period. Please prove me wrong. if you can, then I will mail you 5 lbs of coffee.

Sex outside marriage is grave matter. Whether it is mortal sin or not depends on two other conditions being met. To say it is mortal is to pass judgement on a situation that should be between penitent and confessor.

It never ceases to amaze me that this most basic concept of moral theology, so clearly explained in the catechism, is so often missed on CAF.

 

[TCEL]

So, what is there for LGBT people to say yes to?

Have people considered that when LGBT people have been hurt in the name of religion that telling them all about how homosexuality is an abomination that cries out to heaven for vengeance is only going to repel the LGBT people? Do people really believe that behaving like insufferably pretentious Pharisees is what God wants?

Firstly, there are other sins that cry out to Heaven. That’s not the first thing I myself would say.

I think they are called to pick up their cross and follow Jesus, and in losing their lives, gain them, as are we all called to. I heard a gay Catholic once get offended at the idea that his cross was any heavier than the next person’s ought to be.

Perhaps the self-righteous Pharisees include those who would just as well leave LGBTQ folks alone to their own devices. Leaving people to rot in sin isn’t love. But why do people then claim that means the only other direction to go is the opposite ditch of draconian officiousness?

In defense of some, I don’t think anyone can honestly deny that there is strong social pressure to accept what the Christian worldview just doesn’t. Our anthropology shows we were made male and female, and that somehow children come about from that union. In this context, Christians are reacting against that, even though I personally think a lot of Christians are unintentionally responsible for this current situation.

 

[philipl]

I have to be honest here, I havent walked into a church in over 6 months and as long as the new progress ways of applying catholic teaching is used I wont go into a catholic church. I really dont miss it. I am too old school. I believe you should be held accountable for your actions. I dont believe in collective anything. Society is not to blame for all the ills in the world. The United States and Western civilization isnt to blame either. I cant be held accountable for someone else stupid decisions. You get a ****** degree and cant get a job, that just too bad. Youre in a bad marriage, odds are you knew before you married it was going to be bad. There is a reason I have great marriage and luck had nothing to do with it. Making good decisions has everything to do with it. The reason I have a great life is that my wife and I make good decisions and when we make a poor choice we quickly fix it.

If your unhealthy odd are you made real poor decisions to get there. Are there exception to these conditions, yes, but those exceptions are very rare. And yet progressive use the exceptions as a reason to force their beliefs upon everyone else.

 

[pnewton]

ANY sex outside of marriage is a mortal sin. If a person is a wonderful person, but is cheating on their spouse and dies without changing their ways, they may very well go to hell. .

This is not really an accurate summary of Church Teaching PL.

It is close to Church teaching. They may go to Hell. The “very well” qualifier is an opinion the Church does not comment on.

 

[pnewton]

I wonder when the day will come that adultery is looked upon as ok as long as love in involved its ok?

Never. However, no one said homosexual activity is okay as long as love is involved, as least not in the Catholic Church.

 

[philipl]

Where do you get this stuff from?
Have you received any formal Catechesis since primary school?
That’s a sincere question.

Yeppers.

1. 
   *]Its subject must be a grave (or serious) matter.
   *]It must be committed with full knowledge, both of the sin and of the gravity of the offense.
   *]It must be committed with deliberate and complete consent, enough for it to have been a personal decision to commit the sin
   
   Liberal just love 2 and 3 because they see wiggle room in them. Most people, 99.99999999999999999999% who have involved in sex outside of marriage meet all three conditions. But again progressives will apply the very small percentage that may very well not understand the gravity of the offense or claim there was deliberate and complete consent to make this just a serious matter. after all who can have “full knowledge” or how can anyone give “complete consent”? There is their out. So sex outside of marriage just might be just a serious offense and not a mortal sin according to progressives.

 

[TCEL]

I have to be honest here, I havent walked into a church in over 6 months and as long as the new progress ways of applying catholic teaching is used I wont go into a catholic church. I really dont miss it. I am too old school. I believe you should be held accountable for your actions. I dont believe in collective anything. Society is not to blame for all the ills in the world. The United States and Western civilization isnt to blame either. I cant be held accountable for someone else stupid decisions. You get a ****** degree and cant get a job, that just too bad. Youre in a bad marriage, odds are you knew before you married it was going to be bad. There is a reason I have great marriage and luck had nothing to do with it. Making good decisions has everything to do with it. The reason I have a great life is that my wife and I make good decisions and when we make a poor choice we quickly fix it.

If your unhealthy odd are you made real poor decisions to get there. Are there exception to these conditions, yes, but those exceptions are very rare. And yet progressive use the exceptions as a reason to force their beliefs upon everyone else.

Deliberately missing Mass is still a mortal sin, isn’t it?

 

[zz912]

You missed the point. The other son was 100% obedient but was hard of heart and jealous towards his repentant brother. Do you think that kind of obedience is salvific?

“If you love Me, keep My commands”

There is no salvation without obedience. Though I see your point on rote obedience without love.

 

[OraLabora]

“If you love Me, keep My commands”

There is no salvation without obedience.

As my former beloved confessor says, God understands when the result isn’t perfect, but He still expects the effort…

 

[OraLabora]

Deliberately missing Mass is still a mortal sin, isn’t it?

If it’s without good reason and the person knows that it is gravely sinful. Staying home to care for a sick child or elder is deliberate, but not sinful.