Cardinal Marx: Church should see positive aspects of homosexual relationships [CWN]

[pnewton]

Deliberately missing Mass is still a mortal sin, isn’t it?

Like homosexuality and adultery, one may or may not be in an actual state of mortal sin, though.

 

[graciew]

I wonder when the day will come that adultery is looked upon as ok as long as love in involved its ok?

Maybe we get to understand what it is precisely because love is involved.
It is not a theory or vapour. Ultimately it wounds love itself. And you can see it in the eyes of the wounded.
Phil,we have hurt other persons,we know what is it, little or big,but we know…and we in turn have been hurt.
The Church as a battlefield hospital is real.

 

[philipl]

I have to be honest here, I havent walked into a church in over 6 months and as long as the new progress ways of applying catholic teaching is used I wont go into a catholic church. I really dont miss it. I am too old school. I believe you should be held accountable for your actions. I dont believe in collective anything. Society is not to blame for all the ills in the world. The United States and Western civilization isnt to blame either. I cant be held accountable for someone else stupid decisions. You get a ****** degree and cant get a job, that just too bad. Youre in a bad marriage, odds are you knew before you married it was going to be bad. There is a reason I have great marriage and luck had nothing to do with it. Making good decisions has everything to do with it. The reason I have a great life is that my wife and I make good decisions and when we make a poor choice we quickly fix it.

If your unhealthy odd are you made real poor decisions to get there. Are there exception to these conditions, yes, but those exceptions are very rare. And yet progressive use the exceptions as a reason to force their beliefs upon everyone else.

It seems to be open for debate, but now the closest church is little over an hour drive from where I live. I am trying to talk my wife into buy a small chapel that is for sale that is about three miles away from our house. I will convert it into a small catholic chapel. Need to look into the rule about private chapels

Deliberately missing Mass is still a mortal sin, isn’t it?

 

[graciew]

It seems to be open for debate, but now the closest church is little over an hour drive from where I live. I am trying to talk my wife into buy a small chapel that is for sale that is about three miles away from our house. I will convert it into a small catholic chapel. Need to look into the rule about private chapels

Oh!! That would be lovely!!!
Send pictures,Phil!!
So lovely!!

 

[J_Peterson]

It seems to be open for debate, but now the closest church is little over an hour drive from where I live. I am trying to talk my wife into buy a small chapel that is for sale that is about three miles away from our house. I will convert it into a small catholic chapel. Need to look into the rule about private chapels

That’s an interesting idea. Best of luck.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

It is close to Church teaching. They may go to Hell. The “very well” qualifier is an opinion the Church does not comment on.

I don’t think so.
It’s pretty hard to come back from a black and white universal such as “Any sex outside of marriage is a mortal sin.”
Grave matter yes, mortal sin in all cases…no.

I am starting to smell a rather unbalanced troll.

 

[TCEL]

If it’s without good reason and the person knows that it is gravely sinful. Staying home to care for a sick child or elder is deliberate, but not sinful.

Yes, you are correct. I should have taken more time to clarify that, but I unwisely assumed that most people making it this far through the thread know these points.

And this is why it’s a good thing I’m not the Pope. Well, there are lots of other reasons, too.

 

[TCEL]

It seems to be open for debate, but now the closest church is little over an hour drive from where I live. I am trying to talk my wife into buy a small chapel that is for sale that is about three miles away from our house. I will convert it into a small catholic chapel. Need to look into the rule about private chapels

It’s an occasion for gratitude to ponder a life where Mass opportunities are infrequent. To me, missing Mass is akin to expecting to go to Confession, but all of a sudden not having access to a Priest. I honestly haven’t heard that missing Mass is open for debate without the above-mentioned reasons like health, or perhaps distance, etc.?

God-willing, there may be an opportunity to celebrate Mass at the chapel! Not to hijack this thread, but I was shocked when I learned that some family members, who no longer practice, didn’t know that skipping Mass was considered a mortal sin! I can understand why some people might think it very silly, and I’ve also heard it’s just the Church’s way of keeping people in control, but I was genuinely surprised to hear it coming people who received a similar education to mine. I assumed they knew. Maybe I just paid attention in class.

 

[graciew]

And this is why it’s a good thing I’m not the Pope. Well, there are lots of other reasons, too.

:yup: Count on me to run away with you !

 

[JosieN]

Maybe we get to understand what it is precisely because love is involved.
It is not a theory or vapour. Ultimately it wounds love itself. And you can see it in the eyes of the wounded.
Phil,we have hurt other persons,we know what is it, little or big,but we know…and we in turn have been hurt.
The Church as a battlefield hospital is real.

Is this the new thinking of the Catholic Church, the old laws put there by God are questioned and thought of as too difficult to follow? Instead of preaching repentance, will it only be about love and acceptance? The definition of a mortal sin cannot be changed, but will it be interpreted differently, so that all kinds of relationships are no longer sinful? Will we be made to feel responsible and guilty for all the hurting people in the world who have made bad choices, the ones who sin and do not repent because they love their partners even if they are involved in sinful relationships? Will they not need to repent because their cross is considered too heavy for them?

This sounds crazy to me, but from all the comments I have been seeing on this topic, this appears to be where the Church is heading. I think more people will stop going to church, and want to build their own Church, if this is where it is is going.

 

[TCEL]

I just finished reading this reflection, and I’ll wind up with what I was trying to express by an excerpt. The following is a kind of mission statement of what I suspect many Christian families will be called upon to witness to.

The Lord takes up natural truths — body, marriage, and family — and uses them as the template and means for His salvific work. He is the Word made flesh, the Bridegroom, the Son of Joseph and Mary, Who makes us members of God’s family. We grasp the significance of Jesus’ offering His Body on the Cross and in the Eucharist precisely because we know the body has significance. The permanent, faithful, and life-giving union of husband and wife enables us to grasp what it means that Christ is the Bridegroom and the Church His Bride.

The loss of these natural truths, therefore, inhibits our ability to understand the supernatural and grasp salvation. If the human body has no intrinsic meaning — if it tells us nothing about ourselves and can be adjusted as we see fit — then how can we appreciate the words, “This is my Body”?

If we have no lived experience of the complementarity of man and woman, of bridegroom and bride, then we are at a loss for understanding Christ the Bridegroom dying for His Bride. And neither can we grasp the meaning of God as Father, God as Son, the Church as Mother, etc. It’s in the devil’s interest to deprive of us of these natural signs of the supernatural.

The Devil, You Say?

 

[graciew]

Is this the new thinking of the Catholic Church, the old laws put there by God are questioned and thought of as too difficult to follow? Instead of preaching repentance, will it only be about love and acceptance? The definition of a mortal sin cannot be changed, but will it be interpreted differently, so that all kinds of relationships are no longer sinful? Will we be made to feel responsible and guilty for all the hurting people in the world who have made bad choices, the ones who sin and do not repent because they love their partners even if they are involved in sinful relationships? Will they not need to repent because their cross is considered too heavy for them?

This sounds crazy to me, but from all the comments I have been seeing on this topic, this appears to be where the Church is heading. I think more people will stop going to church, and want to build their own Church, if this is where it is is going.

Where are you going?

 

[JosieN]

It’s an occasion for gratitude to ponder a life where Mass opportunities are infrequent. To me, missing Mass is akin to expecting to go to Confession, but all of a sudden not having access to a Priest. I honestly haven’t heard that missing Mass is open for debate without the above-mentioned reasons like health, or perhaps distance, etc.?

God-willing, there may be an opportunity to celebrate Mass at the chapel! Not to hijack this thread, but I was shocked when I learned that some family members, who no longer practice, didn’t know that skipping Mass was considered a mortal sin! I can understand why some people might think it very silly, and I’ve also heard it’s just the Church’s way of keeping people in control, but I was genuinely surprised to hear it coming people who received a similar education to mine. I assumed they knew. Maybe I just paid attention in class.

There are many reasons people cannot attend Mass. Caring for the sick or disabled, being old and not able to drive anymore, the distance one lives from a Catholic Church, or not having a vehicle to get there. I remember when I was living in the city. The bus that took me to the church was 1 hour apart. I could take the early bus and get there 50 mins early, or the later bus and arrive 10 mins. late. I took the late bus. Soon the priest noticed I was always 10 min. late and mentioned this in the sermon. He noticed how some of us arrived late every Sunday. I felt bad. When my dad was old he could not drive anymore, fortunately he was able to find a house close to the church so he could walk. These are not mortal sins. I am sure they mentioned this in your religion class also.

 

[JosieN]

Where are you going?

My point is that I think at times on this forum some of the comments made are straying too far from the traditional teachings of the Church. I may have expressed a bit of frustration in my reply, but I was trying to get my point across in the best way I could think of.

 

[graciew]

My point is that I think at times on this forum some of the comments made are straying too far from the traditional teachings of the Church. I may have expressed a bit of frustration in my reply, but I was trying to get my point across in the best way I could think of.

We are together,Josie. And yes,frustration appears every now and then and besides,we come from our daily troubles or joys.
I am glad we are walking together anyway,we can always pull each other back home along the way.
Take care,Josie.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Firstly, there are other sins that cry out to Heaven. That’s not the first thing I myself would say.

I think they are called to pick up their cross and follow Jesus, and in losing their lives, gain them, as are we all called to. I heard a gay Catholic once get offended at the idea that his cross was any heavier than the next person’s ought to be.

Perhaps the self-righteous Pharisees include those who would just as well leave LGBTQ folks alone to their own devices. Leaving people to rot in sin isn’t love. But why do people then claim that means the only other direction to go is the opposite ditch of draconian officiousness?

In defense of some, I don’t think anyone can honestly deny that there is strong social pressure to accept what the Christian worldview just doesn’t. Our anthropology shows we were made male and female, and that somehow children come about from that union. In this context, Christians are reacting against that, even though I personally think a lot of Christians are unintentionally responsible for this current situation.

The general point is when someone has been hurt by Christians in the name of Christianity you don’t save their souls by berating them, you have to get them to trust you, to establish rapport before they will care what you have to say. If you start the conversation by talking like the people who hurt them, they will disregard what you have to say at best.

There is no overlap there, it’s like accusing anarchocommunists of being the real Nazis.

 

[JosieN]

The general point is when someone has been hurt by Christians in the name of Christianity you don’t save their souls by berating them, you have to get them to trust you, to establish rapport before they will care what you have to say. If you start the conversation by talking like the people who hurt them, they will disregard what you have to say at best.

There is no overlap there, it’s like accusing anarchocommunists of being the real Nazis.

How is it like accusing the anarcho-communismists of being the real Nazis, or least the people behind the Nazis rise to power and eventually the revolution and war? I find this comparison very interesting.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

How is it like accusing the anarcho-communismists of being the real Nazis, or least the people behind the Nazis rise to power and eventually the revolution and war? I find this comparison very interesting.

The Pharisees were about moral superiority and being happy they aren’t like those sinners over there, they preferred legalism over sanity. People who “just as well leave LGBTQ folks alone to their own devices” lack the legalism and moral superiority complex that characterized the Pharisees.

 

[JosieN]

The Pharisees were about moral superiority and being happy they aren’t like those sinners over there, they preferred legalism over sanity. People who “just as well leave LGBTQ folks alone to their own devices”** lack the legalism and moral superiority **complex that characterized the Pharisees.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Read the Bible and observe how the Pharisees act, they have a rigid obedience to the law, expand and create new laws to follow and have attitudes of moral superiority, see Mark 2, Matthew 23 and Luke 18