Catholic answers please; how do I know if I CAN pray to saints!?

[Dan_Parker]

When a Catholic reads “fallen asleep” or “dead” it means the state of the human body, not the soul… just for argument sake try to place those meanings to the words when you read them (even if it’s temporary). It will make a lot more sense when you see the Bible talk about souls in heaven. I’m sure you already have an idea of what Catholics believe, but we understand that our earthly body dies an earthly death. Our soul will then be judged either destined for Heaven or hell. Our bodies remain dead or "asleep"until Christ comes for his final judgement, at which time our bodies will be ressurected and reunited with our perfected souls (assuming we make it to heaven), which were already living with Christ in heaven.

Would you say that both die and stay that way till??? But then you show me a verse that seems to say the souls have taken their thrones… how does a “dead” soul take a throne?

SD

Dan:
Seems to say? I don’t read it that way, and I don’t think the NJB can be read that way:

NJB Revelation 20:3 He hurled him into the Abyss and shut the entrance and sealed it over him, to make sure he would not lead the nations astray again until the thousand years had passed. At the end of that time he must be released, but only for a short while. 4 Then I saw thrones, where they took their seats, and on them was conferred the power to give judgement. I saw the souls of all who had been beheaded for having witnessed for Jesus and for having preached God’s word, and those who refused to worship the beast or his statue and would not accept the brand-mark on their foreheads or hands; they came to life, and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over; this is the first resurrection.

In verse 3 Satan is abyssed for 1000 years and then John says in verse 4 that he saw thrones and them taking their seats. In verse 5 the rest of the dead has not come to life until the 1000 years were over. Those ones in the first resurrection are already resurrected by the time they take their thrones.

You have not presented any bible writers that teach that the the resurrection is the uniting of the soul and the body. Your explanation would be much easier to accept if that were true.

I hope I am helping reduce your confusion over my position. Mine confusion as to how you support your view remains.

 

[SD_Catholic]

Dan Parker

You have not presented any bible writers that teach that the the resurrection is the uniting of the soul and the body. Your explanation would be much easier to accept if that were true.

Well thankfully for me I have the teachings of 2000 years of Christianity and Early Church writings that help me understand Scripture the way it was meant to be understood. I realize you don’t have that luxury… You’ve made a lot of posts here in a short amount of time, so my thinking is that it is probably part of your jehovah’s witness “mission” to come into a Catholic forum and try to share the watchtower teachings with us rather than really get answers to questions… but hey I could be way off. If you were here on a strictly personal journey I have a feeling you wouldn’t have stated your religion so proudly.

But for another time I’ll try to explain, but also know this… We as Catholics do not believe that the Bible can interpret itself in all areas, so we trust the teachings of those men who compiled the Scripture that makes up your and my Bible (Bible history)… With so many interpretations of Scripture flying around out there it is comforting to know where the authority for Catholic interpretation comes from… can you be as comfortable with the history behind yours???

The following verses show that the soul separates from the body at death, otherwise why would we be so anxious to depart from our bodies to be with the Lord… I doubt St. Paul was excited to die so he could lay in the ground for a 1000 years?

2 Corinthians 5:6-9

So we are always courageous, although we know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yet we are courageous, and we would rather leave the body and go home to the Lord. Therefore, we aspire to please him, whether we are at home or away.

Philippians 1:22-23

If I go on living in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. And I do not know which I shall choose. I am caught between the two. I long to depart this life and be with Christ, (for) that is far better.

Also we see in the next verse that Christ in the Spirit went to “preach to the spirits in prison”… So what “dead” spirit can listen to a speech given by Christ?

1 Peter 3:18-19

For Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit. In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison

Once you understand that the soul and body seperate at death it becomes much easier to understand the Catholic teaching… Keeping this in mind the verses on the resurrection of the body in the following gospels will take on a much different meaning.

John 5:28-29
6:39-40
11:25
Luke 14:14

SD

 

[Dan_Parker]

SD Catholic:
Well thankfully for me I have the teachings of 2000 years of Christianity and Early Church writings that help me understand Scripture the way it was meant to be understood. I realize you don’t have that luxury… You’ve made a lot of posts here in a short amount of time, so my thinking is that it is probably part of your jehovah’s witness “mission” to come into a Catholic forum and try to share the watchtower teachings with us rather than really get answers to questions… but hey I could be way off. If you were here on a strictly personal journey I have a feeling you wouldn’t have stated your religion so proudly

Dan:
I will tell you how I happened on this site. I was googleing something or other and ended up reading a post in the non-Catholic section on JWs and LDS. I registered in order to comment. A catholic by the name of PRMerger engaged me there and when he needed assistance from some scholars moved the thread to the Sacred Scripture board. I have been here ever since. So I did not intend to be here in the first place and don’t know how long I am going to stay. I will now start working on your Scriptural assertions.

 

[Dan_Parker]

SD Catholic:

But for another time I’ll try to explain, but also know this… We as Catholics do not believe that the Bible can interpret itself in all areas, so we trust the teachings of those men who compiled the Scripture that makes up your and my Bible (Bible history)… With so many interpretations of Scripture flying around out there it is comforting to know where the authority for Catholic interpretation comes from… can you be as comfortable with the history behind yours???

Dan:
Yes, I am very comfortable with it. However i do know that a lot of false claims have been made and those who make those claims don’t generally care to acknowledge or hear views to clear up any misunderstandings.

I also know that there are many derogatory things said about Catholics and particularly the history you are apparently comfortable with. Its not my style to make those primary issues for dialogue. Now, really on to Scriptural matters.

 

[Dan_Parker]

SD Catholic:
The following verses show that the soul separates from the body at death, otherwise why would we be so anxious to depart from our bodies to be with the Lord… I doubt St. Paul was excited to die so he could lay in the ground for a 1000 years?

2 Corinthians 5:6-9

So we are always courageous, although we know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yet we are courageous, and we would rather leave the body and go home to the Lord. Therefore, we aspire to please him, whether we are at home or away.

Dan:
First of all, even though you don’t make the argument I have heard it cited by some who really think it says: “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.” While you don’t say this, I think it is safe to say you believe this to be the case.

A careful reading of these verses show that it says not that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord but that they would **rather **absent from the body and present with the Lord.

An examination of the context of 2Corinthians 5:6-8 and his other writings such as 1Thessalonians 4:15 shows that Paul did not believe that he would be re-united with the brothers from Corinth or be with Christ until the day of their resurrection when Christ would return.

** It is the resurrection that causes the holy ones to be “with the Lord” and not their death.**

NJB 1 Thessalonians 4:15 We can tell you this from the Lord’s own teaching, that we who are still alive for the Lord’s coming will not have any advantage over those who have fallen asleep. 16 At the signal given by the voice of the Archangel and the trumpet of God, the Lord himself will come down from heaven; those who have died in Christ will be the first to rise [ANASTHSONTAI], 17 and only after that shall we who remain alive be taken up in the clouds, together with them, to meet the Lord in the air. This is the way we shall be with the Lord for ever.

The being with the Lord is linked to an event (the resurrection) which occurs at the return of Christ. The description of rising (ANASTASIS, or standing up) is what is the cause of them to be “with the Lord”. The phrase “This is the way we shall be with the Lord for ever” [KAI OUTWS PANTOTE SUN KURIW ESOMEQA] is in reference to the fact that ‘we shall be with the Lord for ever’ and his return is in the future [shall be, future tense, ESOMEQA]. Thus they would not be with the Lord until that time.

**
Your question:**
The following verses show that the soul separates from the body at death, otherwise why would we be so anxious to depart from our bodies to be with the Lord… I doubt St. Paul was excited to die so he could lay in the ground for a 1000 years?

The short answer:
The text does not say that when he died he would immediately be with the Lord and indeed he links being with the Lord with the resurrection. He would prefer to be absent from the body and at home with the Lord.

A side point:
As for being absent from the body, Jehovah’s Witnesses interpret 1Co 15 as teaching a contrast between the human body of Christians on earth and their resurrection body which is not composed of dust and is called a spiritual body. So when someone is resurrected to heaven they are absent from their physical body made of dust and at home with the Lord.

PS I think this response covers Philippians 1:22-23, but if not, please let me know if it differs substantially from 2 Corinthians 5:6-9

 

[Dan_Parker]

SD Catholic:

1 Peter 3:18-19
For Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit. In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison

Dan:
What I see here is a reference to Jesus after he was resurrected to life “in the spirit,” with the spiritual body described in 1Co 15. Then Peter says that he preached to the spirits in prison as a spirit. You said say below that the soul and body separate at death. This says spirits, not souls. I would interpret these spirits as wicked angels. Also, if the common thought in these sentences is that the Son was a spirit when he spoke to spirits then this could have taken place much earlier when he was a spirit before he became flesh.

I don’t see how Christ being in the spirit after he is resurrected helps your view that his resurrection is the uniting of his soul and body.

SD Catholic:
Once you understand that the soul and body separate at death it becomes much easier to understand the Catholic teaching… Keeping this in mind the verses on the resurrection of the body in the following gospels will take on a much different meaning.

Dan:
That makes sense. That being the case, would it not be prudent to establish before using proof-texts that depend on this presupposition?

 

[SD_Catholic]

Dan:
I will tell you how I happened on this site. I was googleing something or other and ended up reading a post in the non-Catholic section on JWs and LDS. I registered in order to comment. A catholic by the name of PRMerger engaged me there and when he needed assistance from some scholars moved the thread to the Sacred Scripture board. I have been here ever since. So I did not intend to be here in the first place and don’t know how long I am going to stay. .

Thankyou for your explanation

SD

 

[SD_Catholic]

Dan:
Yes, I am very comfortable with it. However i do know that a lot of false claims have been made and those who make those claims don’t generally care to acknowledge or hear views to clear up any misunderstandings.

I also know that there are many derogatory things said about Catholics and particularly the history you are apparently comfortable with. Its not my style to make those primary issues for dialogue. Now, really on to Scriptural matters.

I’m talking Bible history and where we all got it from… mainly the NT. God first of course, but someone had to assemble these writings and discern which were authentic and which were not… Do you understand how the NT was canonized and who did it? These questions become very important when it comes down to deciding which interpretation to believe… The interpretation I adhere to has been around for 2000 years and is supported by the men who canonized the NT… I feel that is a foundation built on rock. SO to move on to “Scriptural matters” merely becomes a “let’s move on to my opinion matter”… when I here someone’s interpretation I like to know where the authority behind their interpretation comes from… and frankly I have to trust that which I follow before that of Mr. Russell.

SD

 

[SD_Catholic]

SD Catholic:
The following verses show that the soul separates from the body at death, otherwise why would we be so anxious to depart from our bodies to be with the Lord… I doubt St. Paul was excited to die so he could lay in the ground for a 1000 years?

2 Corinthians 5:6-9

So we are always courageous, although we know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yet we are courageous, and we would rather leave the body and go home to the Lord. Therefore, we aspire to please him, whether we are at home or away.

Dan:
First of all, even though you don’t make the argument I have heard it cited by some who really think it says: “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.” While you don’t say this, I think it is safe to say you believe this to be the case.

A careful reading of these verses show that it says not that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord but that they would **rather **absent from the body and present with the Lord.

An examination of the context of 2Corinthians 5:6-8 and his other writings such as 1Thessalonians 4:15 shows that Paul did not believe that he would be re-united with the brothers from Corinth or be with Christ until the day of their resurrection when Christ would return.

** It is the resurrection that causes the holy ones to be “with the Lord” and not their death.**

NJB 1 Thessalonians 4:15 We can tell you this from the Lord’s own teaching, that we who are still alive for the Lord’s coming will not have any advantage over those who have fallen asleep. 16 At the signal given by the voice of the Archangel and the trumpet of God, the Lord himself will come down from heaven; those who have died in Christ will be the first to rise [ANASTHSONTAI], 17 and only after that shall we who remain alive be taken up in the clouds, together with them, to meet the Lord in the air. This is the way we shall be with the Lord for ever.

The being with the Lord is linked to an event (the resurrection) which occurs at the return of Christ. The description of rising (ANASTASIS, or standing up) is what is the cause of them to be “with the Lord”. The phrase “This is the way we shall be with the Lord for ever” [KAI OUTWS PANTOTE SUN KURIW ESOMEQA] is in reference to the fact that ‘we shall be with the Lord for ever’ and his return is in the future [shall be, future tense, ESOMEQA]. Thus they would not be with the Lord until that time.

**
Your question:**
The following verses show that the soul separates from the body at death, otherwise why would we be so anxious to depart from our bodies to be with the Lord… I doubt St. Paul was excited to die so he could lay in the ground for a 1000 years?

The short answer:
The text does not say that when he died he would immediately be with the Lord and indeed he links being with the Lord with the resurrection. He would prefer to be absent from the body and at home with the Lord.

A side point:
As for being absent from the body, Jehovah’s Witnesses interpret 1Co 15 as teaching a contrast between the human body of Christians on earth and their resurrection body which is not composed of dust and is called a spiritual body. So when someone is resurrected to heaven they are absent from their physical body made of dust and at home with the Lord.

PS I think this response covers Philippians 1:22-23, but if not, please let me know if it differs substantially from 2 Corinthians 5:6-9

I didn’t make that argument because we also believe in Hell… and of course Purgatory, which is like the porch into God’s house. I think you’ve seen plenty to know where this idea comes from… that was your question right? You just keep discounting it by giving me a different verse with a jehovah witness interpretation attached to it. I realize that I could continue to sling verses with you to support my idea and you will continue to counter with hand picked veses to sling back that the jehovah’s witnesses have been using for years, I also understand that your mind set and grid for reading Scripture has been established by the watchtower. I’m not in the business of trying to change your mind (it’s not my job)… You asked where my belief comes from, and I told you… You understand those to mean something else, and I believe you do, but the roots of Christ’s Church tell me differently. Perhaps you would be interested in studying some Early Church writings on this subject and also on the history of the Bible. I feel the topic of an immortal soul is only a fraction of the differences we actually have in our beliefs… It would be virtually impossible to make you understand where I’m coming from with all of the other road blocks between my understanding and yours… you know putting the cart in front of the horse?

May God Bless you on your journey Dan

SD

 

[Dan_Parker]

I didn’t make that argument because we also believe in Hell… and of course Purgatory, which is like the porch into God’s house. I think you’ve seen plenty to know where this idea comes from… that was your question right? You just keep discounting it by giving me a different verse with a jehovah witness interpretation attached to it. I realize that I could continue to sling verses with you to support my idea and you will continue to counter with hand picked veses to sling back that the jehovah’s witnesses have been using for years, I also understand that your mind set and grid for reading Scripture has been established by the watchtower. I’m not in the business of trying to change your mind (it’s not my job)… You asked where my belief comes from, and I told you… You understand those to mean something else, and I believe you do, but the roots of Christ’s Church tell me differently. Perhaps you would be interested in studying some Early Church writings on this subject and also on the history of the Bible. I feel the topic of an immortal soul is only a fraction of the differences we actually have in our beliefs… It would be virtually impossible to make you understand where I’m coming from with all of the other road blocks between my understanding and yours… you know putting the cart in front of the horse?

May God Bless you on your journey Dan

SD

Thanks for your replies. When you say “your mind set and grid for reading Scripture has been established by the watchtower” would you also say that your “mind set and grid for reading Scripture has been established by the Catholic Church?”

So far I have not quoted the Watchtower at all in my replies to you. I have used your Catholic bibles in my responses to you. I have backed up everything with the Sacred Scripture and also with the latest and best lexical tools available for the study of the original languages. I have never used the argument that the WTB&TS teaches this and so it must be true.

 

[Dan_Parker]

I’m talking Bible history and where we all got it from… mainly the NT. God first of course, but someone had to assemble these writings and discern which were authentic and which were not… Do you understand how the NT was canonized and who did it? These questions become very important when it comes down to deciding which interpretation to believe… The interpretation I adhere to has been around for 2000 years and is supported by the men who canonized the NT… I feel that is a foundation built on rock. SO to move on to “Scriptural matters” merely becomes a “let’s move on to my opinion matter”… when I here someone’s interpretation I like to know where the authority behind their interpretation comes from… and frankly I have to trust that which I follow before that of Mr. Russell.

SD

Russell did not originate our doctrines. Individuals have taught various facets of our beliefs and all of them were still taught in one form or another in Russell’s time. If you think Russell invented the interpretation that the Soul is not immortal, read up on Sir Isaac Newton.

 

[twb1621]

Russell did not originate our doctrines. Individuals have taught various facets of our beliefs and all of them were still taught in one form or another in Russell’s time. If you think Russell invented the interpretation that the Soul is not immortal, read up on Sir Isaac Newton.

Dan, I would direct your attention to posts #78, #79 and #80 as you missed responding to them and they are in direct response to your statements.

If someone other than Russell initiated the establishment of the JW, I would like to know who did according to your understanding if you don’t mind. Regardless of the originator, it is completely wrong.

Lastly, the whole principle of the soul of those “holy” having any kind of interruption in eternal life is completely against scripture as I stated earlier. It cannot be both ways and the evidence for eternal life is clear in the OT. There is only one truth and it is clear when it comes to the holy that pass from this life and move on to the eternal life. If you believe otherwise, please show your Biblical support.

 

[Dan_Parker]

continued from previous post…

---

twb1621
Think of how you would justify the existence of prophets and saints in heaven when we know they died mortally at one point but exist as eternally living souls just as the angels, as attested to in scripture? You must consider the soul does not die

Dan:
I could consider that the soul does not die briefly until I read in both the OT and NT that it does die.
· DRA Ezekiel 18:4 Behold all souls are mine: as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, the same shall die.

Why did you switch Bible versions?

NAB Ezekiel 18; 4 For all lives are mine; the life of the father is like the life of the son, both are mine; only the one who sins shall die.
***Latin Vulgate ******Ezekiel 18;***4 Behold all souls are mine: as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, the same shall die. 5 And if a man be just, and do judgment and justice, 6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, nor lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel: and hath not defiled his neighbour’s wife, nor come near to a menstruous woman: 7 And hath not wronged any man: but hath restored the pledge to the debtor, hath taken nothing away by violence: hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment: 8 Hath not lent upon usury, nor taken any increase: hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, and hath executed true judgment between man and man: 9 Hath walked in my commandments, and kept my judgments, to do truth: ***he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord God. ***

All sinful die. That has nothing in opposition to the holy or faithful going to heaven with the Father.

continued next post…

You are rephrasing what was originally inspired and changing it to fit your theology. Yes, all the sinful die, agreed. However the inspired bible writer says that the soul dies. The two statements are not mutually exclusive. You have not removed Ezekiel 18:4 as a text that proves the soul is not immortal.

 

[SD_Catholic]

Russell did not originate our doctrines. Individuals have taught various facets of our beliefs and all of them were still taught in one form or another in Russell’s time. If you think Russell invented the interpretation that the Soul is not immortal, read up on Sir Isaac Newton.

No he didn’t invent that heresy… it was around early on, but the Early Christians fought against that and many other heresies to keep the truth as Jesus revealed it.

SD

 

[Dan_Parker]

First lets state a fact that scripture DOES NOT contradict itself in any way. So every verse regardless of whether I or you present it, must coincide with each other. Now, in this regard, it doesn’t matter where in scripture any verse appears, it will not conflict. It cannot. It is the word of God. So as long as we realize this, we have a place to begin and a foundation to build on.

Now I suggest you take the verses I presented you previously and those you presented to others that I offered responses to start with. Reconsider those and I will add my response to the above for your consideration also.

twb162
I realize JW believe the dead are dead until the resurrection with the body, but the JW do not take into account the OT scripture that it conflicts with and there is a great deal.

Dan:
At the end of the bible we are given more detail that at the beginning, don’t you agree?

I also realize the JW centers on Revelations, but where a verse falls is only determined by the placement of that book in the Bible and that was determined by the Catholic Church at the time the books were selected based on their authenticity among other things. Where a verse is does not affect its authority as the inspired word of God.
NJB Revelation 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over; this is the first resurrection.
What OT scripture denies that the resurrection is what causes the dead one to live again?

The soul is not dead but rejoined with the body. The body certainly is dead. But What OT scripture claims that the soul ever dies and comes back to its life at any time other than those condemned? The resurrection is what causes the dead one to live again?

Revelation 20; 1 1 Then I saw an angel come down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the abyss 2 and a heavy chain. 2 He seized the dragon, the ancient serpent, which is the Devil or Satan, 3 and tied it up for a thousand years 3 and threw it into the abyss, which he locked over it and sealed, so that it could no longer lead the nations astray until the thousand years are completed. After this, it is to be released for a short time. 4 Then I saw thrones; those who sat on them were entrusted with judgment. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image nor had accepted its mark 4 on their foreheads (the mark on their foreheads being a corrupt or sinful mind). They came to life and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead (those sinful kept away as with the beast) did not come to life until the thousand years were over. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed 5 and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over these; they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for (the) thousand years.
This is not in conflict at all with any of the previously presented verses showing the living souls of the holy in heaven. Again, the soul rejoins the body when the body returns at the resurrection.

continued next post.

Dan:
You don’t give my anything to respond to here except your statements which are not backed up by Sacred Scripture. You said there were lots of OT verses that apply here and yet you don’t list them.

You said:
The soul is not dead but rejoined with the body. The body certainly is dead. But **What OT scripture claims that the soul ever dies and comes back to its life at any time other than those condemned? **The resurrection is what causes the dead one to live again?

Why do you limit this to an OT scripture? Revelation teaches this. The souls under the altar are dead and come to life. That’s my point. According to Catholics you accept Revelation. Whats the problem with Revelation?

Also, I did not introduce this passage in Revelation 6. It was a Catholic who used it to attempt to prove the dead are alive in heaven and that it is ok to pray to them.

Therefore if you don’t accept Revelation, take it up with the Catholic who brought this passage up to me as proof!

 

[SD_Catholic]

Thanks for your replies. When you say “your mind set and grid for reading Scripture has been established by the watchtower” would you also say that your “mind set and grid for reading Scripture has been established by the Catholic Church?”

So far I have not quoted the Watchtower at all in my replies to you. I have used your Catholic bibles in my responses to you. I have backed up everything with the Sacred Scripture and also with the latest and best lexical tools available for the study of the original languages. I have never used the argument that the WTB&TS teaches this and so it must be true.

I know you haven’t quoted the watch tower, I just realize your interpretations have been formed by what it and the jahovah witnesses teach… isn’t that a fair assesment?

My mind set has absolutely been established by the CC, and I’m proud of it! And also proud to say I can trace the roots of those interpretations all the way back to Jesus and continuing through history of the Early Church and the canonizing of the Bible, and to the present day.

SD

 

[Dan_Parker]

continued from previous post.

DRA Numbers 23:10 Who can count the dust of Jacob, and know the number of the stock of Israel? Let my soul die the death of the just, and my last end be like to them.
Numbers 23: 8 How can I curse whom God has not cursed? How denounce whom the LORD has not denounced? 9 2 For from the top of the crags I see him, from the heights I behold him. Here is a people that lives apart and does not reckon itself among the nations. 10 3 Who has ever counted the dust of Jacob, or numbered Israel’s wind-borne particles? May I die the death of the just, may my descendants be as many as theirs! 11 “What have you done to me?” cried Balak to Balaam. “It was to curse my foes that I brought you here; instead, you have even blessed them.”
Israel, as the chosen people of God, occupied a unique place among the nations, from which they kept themselves aloof. “The dust of Jacob” or “Israel’s wind-borne particles” means the Israelites will be as numerous as dust in a desert sandstorm. “May I die the death of the just, may my descendants be as many as theirs!" A idea by which Balaam swears he is speaking the truth; he sees the reward of virtue in having numerous descendants.
But it Does not pertain to what we are referring to.

DRA Revelation 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea. And there came blood as it were of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
1-21] These seven bowls, like the seven seals (⇒ Rev 6:1-17; ⇒ 8:1) and the seven trumpets (⇒ Rev 8:2-⇒ 9:21; ⇒ 11:15-19), bring on a succession of disasters modeled in part on the plagues of Egypt (Exodus 7-12). See the note on ⇒ Rev 6:12-14.
[2] Like the sixth Egyptian plague (⇒ Exodus 9:8-11).
[3-4] Like the first Egyptian plague (⇒ Exodus 7:20-21). The same woe followed the blowing of the second trumpet (⇒ Rev 8:8-9).

NAB CH16; 3 3 The second angel poured out his bowl on the sea. The sea turned to blood like that from a corpse; every creature living in the sea died.
Latin vulgate CH 16; 3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea, and there came blood as it were of a dead man; ***and every living soul died in the sea. ***
What lives in the sea? Not man, but sea creatures. Now we know they do not have souls so that tells us it is figurative and referring to “every single Creature”.

Dan:
You don’t give me much to work with here, which is probably why I did not respond, assuming I saw this post. You appear to be pitting one Catholic bible against another in an attempt to prove the soul does not die. However you cannot do this. In addition the Hebrew has the word for Soul even if some Catholic bibles don’t render it as such.

 

[twb1621]

You are rephrasing what was originally inspired and changing it to fit your theology. Yes, all the sinful die, agreed. However the inspired bible writer says that the soul dies. The two statements are not mutually exclusive. You have not removed Ezekiel 18:4 as a text that proves the soul is not immortal.

I’m not changing anything. I am perfectly willing to compare my references and there accuracy against the Latin Vulgate which is the first recognized compiled work of canonized texts called “the Holy Bible”. Are you ready to do that AND accept the Latin Vulgate in place of the changes your version of the Bible presents? what source do you think your Bible originated from?

 

[twb1621]

Dan:
You don’t give my anything to respond to here except your statements which are not backed up by Sacred Scripture. You said there were lots of OT verses that apply here and yet you don’t list them.

You said:
The soul is not dead but rejoined with the body. The body certainly is dead. But **What OT scripture claims that the soul ever dies and comes back to its life at any time other than those condemned? **The resurrection is what causes the dead one to live again?
Why do you limit this to an OT scripture?

Because scripture does not contradict itself New from Old and Jesus is the fulfillment of the OT. But I also know how JW seperate certain aspects of the Bible because they do not fit with their beliefs. Do you believe in Jesus as Catholics do?

Revelation teaches this. The souls under the altar are dead and come to life. That’s my point. According to Catholics you accept Revelation. Whats the problem with Revelation? The only problem is with the JW interpretaion of revolations claiming against the word of God that the holy DO NOT stagnate in the grave until the resurrection, but as scripture clearly shows, enter heaven. Your problem is with the OT writings that support this.

JW misinterpret revelations horribly in order to support what the JW believe. Read the verses I offered you and read the interpretations I offered clarifying your misinterpretations.

Also, I did not introduce this passage in Revelation 6. It was a Catholic who used it to attempt to prove the dead are alive in heaven and that it is ok to pray to them.

Therefore if you don’t accept Revelation, take it up with the Catholic who brought this passage up to me as proof!

I do, I am well aware of what the JW present from revelations.

 

[twb1621]

Dan:
You don’t give me much to work with here, which is probably why I did not respond, assuming I saw this post. You appear to be pitting one Catholic bible against another in an attempt to prove the soul does not die. However you cannot do this. In addition the Hebrew has the word for Soul even if some Catholic bibles don’t render it as such.

The only difference between Catholic Bibles is the modern american english wording as compared to the old Latin or versions for international uses. The interpretations do not change, only the way worded for those from other countries with other languages. you were the one who switched from NAB. If I do refer to the Latin Vulgate or the Septuagint it is because all versions of Bible no matter what alterations have been made originate from that Vulgate.