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WillPhillips
Guest
I don’t see any mention of contraception here (which I presume the author is against). It reads to me as an argument solely on economic policies.
Catholic author argues a vote for Warren will save unborn lives. Thoughts?
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13pollitos
Guest
Well, if the same numbers are being used then I would like something that backs up the argument it’s about economic policies and not contraception since that is what they normally attribute those numbers to. Do you have those types of figures anywhere else that show it’s about economics? Anywhere in the world?
ETA: as someone who has lived through both Clinton and Obama I honestly can’t imagine those figures point to economic factors. Not with the experiences many of us lived through. And no, I don’t travel in rich circles. Life was truly hard for many of us not in the top 20%
ETA: as someone who has lived through both Clinton and Obama I honestly can’t imagine those figures point to economic factors. Not with the experiences many of us lived through. And no, I don’t travel in rich circles. Life was truly hard for many of us not in the top 20%
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fide
Guest
And that is a lie I’m sure the father of lies will add to his full-page ad: “No, hell is not freezing over - it’s perfectly balmy and wonderful, all year long. And the serpents and slime served for dinner all taste like chicken! Meanwhile, kill your babies - they only slow you down. And when the Democrats say abortion is like a sacrament, they are telling my truth, as I taught them to say.”
LIARS!
LIARS!
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WillPhillips
Guest
“Put another way, whether intended or not the policies of pro-choice presidents were three and a half times as effective at reducing the abortion rate as pro-life presidents.
The reason why that is may likewise be drawn directly from the research. In the Guttmacher Institute’s 2005 study of 1208 post-abortive women, 73% said they sought the procedure due to economic concerns: unemployment or a single, insufficient income incapable of covering basic needs plus the added costs of baby and child care. Seventy-four percent also said that having a child would interfere with their ability to work or get an education, or would draw resources away from their other children.
If the Guttmacher study is accurate – and it is widely cited, including by pro-life organizations, as above – then the connection between the abortion rate and expansions and contractions of the social safety net is obvious.”
“ The German abortion rate in 2015 was 5.5 abortions per 1,000 women. If the American abortion rate in 2015 had been 5.5 rather than 11.8, it would have meant 341,000 fewer abortions that year alone. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Germany has multiple, overlapping supports for pregnant women and families, including universal healthcare, generous maternity and family leave, no-cost public colleges, and higher wages. If a Warren Administration was able to preserve and extend our current safety net, and add universal healthcare, childcare, and generous paid family leave to it, I believe it would save tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of unborn lives.”
The reason why that is may likewise be drawn directly from the research. In the Guttmacher Institute’s 2005 study of 1208 post-abortive women, 73% said they sought the procedure due to economic concerns: unemployment or a single, insufficient income incapable of covering basic needs plus the added costs of baby and child care. Seventy-four percent also said that having a child would interfere with their ability to work or get an education, or would draw resources away from their other children.
If the Guttmacher study is accurate – and it is widely cited, including by pro-life organizations, as above – then the connection between the abortion rate and expansions and contractions of the social safety net is obvious.”
“ The German abortion rate in 2015 was 5.5 abortions per 1,000 women. If the American abortion rate in 2015 had been 5.5 rather than 11.8, it would have meant 341,000 fewer abortions that year alone. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Germany has multiple, overlapping supports for pregnant women and families, including universal healthcare, generous maternity and family leave, no-cost public colleges, and higher wages. If a Warren Administration was able to preserve and extend our current safety net, and add universal healthcare, childcare, and generous paid family leave to it, I believe it would save tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of unborn lives.”
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translaticius
Guest
I would be willing to post side by side redacted pay documents but you would just accuse me of faking those. Just because you refuse to believe something because it doesn’t line up with your agenda does not mean it isn’t true.
On a possibly related note, envy is a sin and a grave sin if you let it take hold of you to the point of resentment and hate.
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13pollitos
Guest
I am not making myself clear and we are just going in circles. I was asking for sources other than what is in this particular article about anywhere in the world that show economic policies reduce abortions. Not numbers that planned parenthood also uses to show contraception availability curbs abortion rates.
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WillPhillips
Guest
The Guttmacher Institute survey is what you’re objecting to? The source this author linked is here (a pro-life website):
Again, I believe the author is directly addressing your concern. That women pursue abortions mainly for economic reasons (see references link), and democracies with strong economic safety nets have lower abortion rates (ie women know they will be supported economically), and Warren’s policies most closely align with those countries.
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Dovekin
Guest
Who do you think would be a stronger opponent of “casual sex outside of wedlock”? Trump? Warren would do far more to discourage casual sex than Trump or virtually any Republican candidate. And most of the Democrats. And she would do it without trying.Social issues – like casual sex outside wedlock? Is Elizabeth Warren going to help combat that?
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13pollitos
Guest
This is going no where…
Anything from a source besides in this article that shows the same drop is due to economics? If economics is the reason, surely you can find something from somewhere in the world that shows the same thing. Usually it is stated that the drop is from increased contraception availability.
Anything from a source besides in this article that shows the same drop is due to economics? If economics is the reason, surely you can find something from somewhere in the world that shows the same thing. Usually it is stated that the drop is from increased contraception availability.
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Shasta-Rose
Guest
As my husband likes to say: The politician who promises to rob Peter to pay Paul can always count on the support of Paul.
Mark121359
Well-known member
Firstly, you need to brush up on your history to learn just how horrible conditions are living under an authentic dictator/fascist regime! But as for Trump rather than Warren?
Seven days a week…and twice on Sundays!!!
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PJH_74
Guest
Ummmm no. Even then you are playing into the exact point I made earlier. If you believe a person is a person from conception and that an innocent child need not lose its life over choices made by their parents, then you need to also treat them with the same respect due any other living human.
Treating its parents with contempt because of how the birth happened also treats the innocent baby with contempt and that’s not right.
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Peeps
Guest
What income do you consider “rich?” I’m sure you realize that people in NYC are going to need more just to live a modest lifestyle than people in smaller towns in the Midwest. So go ahead and tell us what income makes someone “rich” in NYC and “rich” in Small Town, Midwest U.S.A.
Also, what did the rich do to you to make you despise them so much? I’m sorry if you were hurt by a rich person.
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PJH_74
Guest
Do you really think a total legal ban will halt abortion? It will only drive it underground without anyway to regulate it. It’s not about waiting for social change, it’s not being under the delusion that it can just be skipped and ignored.
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Elf01
Guest
Replace abortion with any other crime and we can get rid of all laws.
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midori
Guest
Why was Germany (and other countries) so anxious to import millions of immigrants, just the other year ago? It’s because the EU in general isn’t generating its own replacement population, and its economy/social programs won’t be stable further down the road without a good, healthy population base to support the senior citizens. It’s also why the trends of later marriages/fewer children/if any in the US hasn’t affected us quite as much as some other first-world countries, because we’ve always had an immigrant population to boost our domestic productivity. We’re suffering as well, but not quite as much as Asia or Europe, and we’re not learning their lessons.
Europe is just a little while behind Asia… you know the aging crisis that Japan’s been going through, as the elderly citizens age out of the workforce, but the youth aren’t coming up behind them in sustainable numbers. That creates challenges-- productivity, social security, and so on.
Here’s one that shows that four years ago, Germany was worried that its 60+ population would outnumber its <30yo population by 2020’ish.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Germany also had about 18.6 million immigrants in 2016. I see another citation elsewhere that mentions 1.4 million refugees as of 2018— with France taking in 402k, Italy taking in 355k, Sweden taking in 328k, Austria taking in 173k, Greece taking in 83k.
Here’s a chart about Europe’s population over the age of 65—
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Which ones have the most aged populations? Germany… Italy… Spain… Austria… Sweden… Greece.
We were discussing this sort of thing back in the 90’s…
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Europe is just a little while behind Asia… you know the aging crisis that Japan’s been going through, as the elderly citizens age out of the workforce, but the youth aren’t coming up behind them in sustainable numbers. That creates challenges-- productivity, social security, and so on.
Here’s one that shows that four years ago, Germany was worried that its 60+ population would outnumber its <30yo population by 2020’ish.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Germany also had about 18.6 million immigrants in 2016. I see another citation elsewhere that mentions 1.4 million refugees as of 2018— with France taking in 402k, Italy taking in 355k, Sweden taking in 328k, Austria taking in 173k, Greece taking in 83k.
Here’s a chart about Europe’s population over the age of 65—
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Which ones have the most aged populations? Germany… Italy… Spain… Austria… Sweden… Greece.
We were discussing this sort of thing back in the 90’s…
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
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midori
Guest
Our economies and social programs depend on constant growth-- the babies grow up to be good little worker bees. Their tax dollars support the programs of the people above them, and they consume the products that are manufactured. It’s why advertisers target that 18-34 range, depending on the product at hand, and why you don’t see beer commercials targeted at senior citizens (because they’ve already decided on their favorite beer by that point).
One piece of advice that stuck with me was, “If you want to make money, see what the baby boomers want.” Back in the 80’s and the 90’s, they were at the end of their careers. They were buying big houses on golf courses. They were traveling the world. Their kids were grown; they had money lying around; and they caused the entertainment industry to explode. Now, they’re in their declining years. Nursing and healthcare is where a lot of their needs are. And you see people in the real estate and entertainment industries struggling to change their business models, because there’s just not the population numbers coming up behind them to maintain their biz. And the population that is coming up behind them has different spending habits, which they’re trying to adjust to. And you’re finding articles like “Golf-Home Owners Find Themselves in a Hole” (people are mysteriously having trouble downsizing from extravagant golf course houses because there aren’t a lot of people who want to pay an initiation fee of about $70k plus monthly dues of $1-2k for the privilege of living on a golf course) and “How Cities are Repurposing Golf Courses into Parks and Housing.”
One piece of advice that stuck with me was, “If you want to make money, see what the baby boomers want.” Back in the 80’s and the 90’s, they were at the end of their careers. They were buying big houses on golf courses. They were traveling the world. Their kids were grown; they had money lying around; and they caused the entertainment industry to explode. Now, they’re in their declining years. Nursing and healthcare is where a lot of their needs are. And you see people in the real estate and entertainment industries struggling to change their business models, because there’s just not the population numbers coming up behind them to maintain their biz. And the population that is coming up behind them has different spending habits, which they’re trying to adjust to. And you’re finding articles like “Golf-Home Owners Find Themselves in a Hole” (people are mysteriously having trouble downsizing from extravagant golf course houses because there aren’t a lot of people who want to pay an initiation fee of about $70k plus monthly dues of $1-2k for the privilege of living on a golf course) and “How Cities are Repurposing Golf Courses into Parks and Housing.”
po18guy
Well-known member
“Catholic author”? That needs qualification. I have a book by two “Catholic” Seattle University (where else) professors of philosophy entitled “A Brief, Liberal Catholic Defense of Abortion.” Catholic, huh?
Right.
Man! I see from posts that the intransigent liberals still - still - have not gotten over the 2016 election! Amazing.
For all the haters, President Trump has done more for life and the Catholic Church than any US president in history.
Some apparently have ignored that.
As to Warren, AYKM? The 1/1064th “Native American”? Time for a reality check.
Right.
Man! I see from posts that the intransigent liberals still - still - have not gotten over the 2016 election! Amazing.
For all the haters, President Trump has done more for life and the Catholic Church than any US president in history.
Some apparently have ignored that.
As to Warren, AYKM? The 1/1064th “Native American”? Time for a reality check.
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PJH_74
Guest
I’m not quite sure what you are getting at my friend. The problem with abortion is that a good percentage of them are born of desperation and there is little consensus in society about when it is appropriate or not. Laws don’t stop crime without society up holding them. Killing a human outside the womb, theft, and the like enjoy such support. But abortion is not one of them.
I don’t argue with church teaching in general, but saying don’t do it ignores the plethora of brokenness in the world behind it. Addressing this brokenness is the only real solution. It is also the most difficult and moral.
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Elf01
Guest
Is there any law that has not been broken by someone was the point I was making? People will do it anyway is not a valid reason not to outlaw something.
On saying that I would support increased supports for pregnant women and parents.
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