Catholic Church founded by Jesus?

[ArchStanton]

ArchStanton:

Jesus becomes our ‘everything’ in the Eucharist lanman87

That is the tradition for some.

Jn 6 the one who FEEDS ON ME will have life because of me.

 

[Erundil]

Church authority and the Eucharist wasn’t the topic of my reply. But that seems to be what some people want to make every conversation with non-Catholic Christians about.

Because you’re opposing literal words of God. And I mean literal, what is so unclear in words:

“ Amen, amen , I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you DO NOT HAVE LIFE within you . Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life , and I will raise him on the last day. For MY FLESH IS TRUE FOOD , and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood REMAINS IN ME and I in him" .

Meanwhile, there’s nowhere to be said in Bible that some accepting Jesus is what you need to do.
You need to be baptised by Church to become ‘binded’ by Church. And then, eat Body of Christ and drink His Blood. This is what Jesus taught us. And it’s not some to-do list, we need to be ‘binded’ by Church, by sacraments because our mere human acceptation of Jesus — acceptation just by will, the one you Protestants tend to proclaim— is weak, and unfaithful by nature and and we wouldn’t last long.

We simply need the help of His Grace…

 

[lanman87]

Because you’re opposing literal words of God. And I mean literal, what is so unclear in words:

That is your interpretation. 100 of millions of Christians have a different interpretation of John 6.

Meanwhile, there’s nowhere to be said in Bible that some accepting Jesus is what you need to do.

I never said anything about “accepting Jesus”.

 

[hope]

One can go to far in thinking leaders can be unholy and still teach and expound perfect understanding every time, as if a bad tree can’t give bad fruit.

Of course they can when the Church is protected. Not since Jesus founded the Catholic Church has there been any Dogma proclaimed that was wrong.

Indeed if you take understanding of heaven’s binding away you have no conditions to binding on earth.

What you write makes no sense. What does the verse mean? It is authority of the Pope and the Church. If the Pope declares you cannot eat meat on Friday, it will be upheld by God. If the Pope says you can make eat meat on Friday, that too will be upheld by God.

 

[ArchStanton]

ArchStanton:

Understood… but you also seem to have a problem with Christ’s words ‘ whatever you bind…’

Jesus becomes our ‘everything’ in the Eucharist lanman87

Church authority and the Eucharist wasn’t the topic of my reply. But that seems to be what some people want to make every conversation with non-Catholic Christians about.

It was brought up because you mentioned a close relationship with Christ earlier, and so, …

THE SACRAMENT OF THE EUCHARIST

CCC
[ 1322 ] The holy Eucharist completes Christian initiation . Those who have been raised to the dignity of the royal priesthood by Baptism and configured more deeply to Christ by Confirmation participate with the whole community in the Lord’s own sacrifice by means of the Eucharist.

[ 1324 ] The Eucharist is “the source and summit of the Christian life.” 136 "The other sacraments, and indeed all ecclesiastical ministries and works of the apostolate, are bound up with the Eucharist and are oriented toward it. For in the blessed Eucharist is contained the whole spiritual good of the Church, namely Christ himself, our Pasch ."137

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

If you are right, then I feel completely ripped off. I was taught my whole life that I actually had to believe with my heart and mind, and submit my will to His.

That’s all part of what I meant by “follow and obey the Church”.

Ok, I see what you are saying. What you and @hope need to realize is that I (and some of us) live in a community where our Catholic neighbors tell us in their terms ( not mine) …“oh, don’t be so g______n religious, all you have to do is follow and obey the Church” …by which I take to mean, go tell the blankety blank priest your sorry at Easter. Maybe judgments against us nons about not “being in the center of God’s will” would be tempered if you realized the framework within some of us rub shoulders with Catholic neighbors.

 

[TULIPed]

Meanwhile, there’s nowhere to be said in Bible that some accepting Jesus is what you need to do.

True this. However, I think this is one place where the idea of “acceptance” comes from:

“…because if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved.” (Romans 10:9(b)-10, NRSV)

Of course true confession of faith in Christ is always accompanied with evidence. Evidence of faith is seen in the fruit of the Spirit - good works flow from true belief.

 

[lanman87]

Does the Catholic church not teach that prayer, worship, study, and service are also part of a close relationship with Christ?

I mean, if you go to Mass every Sunday and don’t do anything else during the week in way of personal devotion and service, are you really in a close relationship with Christ?

 

[ArchStanton]

Does the Catholic church not teach that prayer, worship, study, and service are also part of a close relationship with Christ?

I mean, if you go to Mass every Sunday and don’t do anything else during the week in way of personal devotion and service, are you really in a close relationship with Christ?

When you are a ‘Catholic’, you are part of the body. The issue centers on obedience to Christ and His commands.

Obedience to the Church may be a leap of faith for some, but the bottom line is this –

Would you rather eat from Christ’s ‘Banquet’ or the personal ‘Buffet’?

 

[Wannano]

Hope, . . . Just so you know, I have wonderful Catholic friends who do not live in my immediate community, who I believe are truly Christians…and I might add, do not make quick judgements against those of us who differ.

 

[ArchStanton]

100 of millions of Christians have a different interpretation of John 6.

Then look to the early Christian Church to see what they practiced.

Ignatius of Antioch
They even ABSTAIN FROM THE EUCHARIST and the public prayer, because they will NOT ADMIT that the Eucharist is the self-same body of our Savior Jesus Christ, which [flesh] suffered for our sins, and which the Father in His goodness raised up again** ” ( Epistle to the Smyrnaeans 6, 7 106 AD ).

Justin Martyr

" We call this food EUCHARIST, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true… the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus " ( First Apology 66 [ A.D. 151 ]).

Irenaeus

'If the Lord were from other than the Father, how could he rightly take bread, which is of the same creation as our own, and confess it to be his body and affirm that the mixture in the cup is his blood ?" ( Against Heresies 4:33–32 [ A.D. 189 ]).

 

[lanman87]

I’ve been through all of this before. I’m not interested in going through it again.

 

[ArchStanton]

What I’m saying is that if Christ is truly the center of someones life then they are seeking first the Kingdom of God

That requires truth…

Jn 6 …whoever eats this bread will live forever

 

[lanman87]

Wow, all I did was make a simple observation and you seem to want to get into a huge theological debate (that has been rehashed over and over again both on this board and throughout history). I’m not interested in going through that debate again. It is futile.

 

[ArchStanton]

Wow, all I did was make a simple observation and you seem to want to get into a huge theological debate (that has been rehashed over and over again both on this board and throughout history). I’m not interested in going through that debate again. It is futile.

Was it really a simple observation? Go back and reread your posts.

You commented on authority with ‘binding/loosing’.

 

[lanman87]

Here is my post. Nothing about authority or binding or loosing. But instead how some people are attracted to a form of Christianity that, instead of a deep and abiding relationship with Christ, is a “To Do” list. I made it clear in another post that I wasn’t even specifically talking about Catholicism because I see it as something that happens in many Christian traditions.

"Some people are really drawn to a “To Do” list version of Christianity where someone gives them a formula to follow in order to get to live a good life and get to heaven. But that is not Christianity, it is religion. The Jews had a to do list in the Mosaic law and it couldn’t save anyone. All a to do list can do is show us our inadequacy when we fail to do something on the list.

God didn’t send Jesus to give us a new to do list. He sent Jesus to bring us into relationship with God where are now, through faith, adopted and are part of the ecclessia (the called out people of God). To do list Christianity is easier because it is all black and white and structured. But it is also empty and defeating, because very few of us can keep up with the to do list for very long.

Don’t get me wrong, To Do list can be helpful in developing disciplines that grow and strengthen our faith. However, To Do list themselves are not what Christianity is all about. Christ being the center of our life, every aspect of our life, is what Christianity is about. That goes way beyond “To Do” list Christianity. It requires a deep and abiding faith in Christ. Whereas, to do list Christianity turns into faith in our ability to follow the list."

 

[ArchStanton]

Give me some examples of a ‘To Do’ list

Thanks

 

[lanman87]

In the tradition I was raised in there were To Do list and Don’t Do List.

The To Do list went something like this:

Go to church every time the doors are open Sunday Morning, Sunday Night, Wednesday night.
Read your Bible and pray at least 30 minutes every day
Give 10% of your income to the church
Volunteer at church

The Don’t Do list included

Don’t cuss
Don’t drink
Don’t Smoke
Don’t hang out with people who cuss, drink or smoke

While those things are good and helpful and positive. The fact is we can do all of those things because we were told to and miss out on truly knowing Jesus. And when we truly know Jesus the To Do list that you had to white knuckle though in order to be a “true Christian” suddenly becomes times of worship and joy and a sweet time of being the with Jesus instead of a yoke that weighs us down.

It has been my experience that To Do list Christianity either robs me of joy because I’m doing what I’m doing out of obligation instead of love and joy or because I feel guilty because I don’t follow the list or if I do follow the list I’m just going through the motions without any real meaning behind what I’m doing.

 

[hope]

I agree with you as I suspect everyone else here does, that Jesus is the center of our life. Without really understanding what you mean by a to do list it is difficult to know if I would agree with you are not. I would believe that Jesus did give us a to do list, be baptized, eat his Body and Blood, confess your sins, Take care of your fellow man, give to God what is do, pray and sacrifice. This “to do” list is actually a guide on how to make Jesus the center of your life.

 

[ArchStanton]

While those things are good and helpful and positive. The fact is we can do all of those things because we were told to and miss out on truly knowing Jesus. And when we truly know Jesus the To Do list that you had to white knuckle though in order to be a “true Christian” suddenly becomes times of worship and joy and a sweet time of being the with Jesus instead of a yoke that weighs us down.

It has been my experience that To Do list Christianity either robs me of joy because I’m doing what I’m doing out of obligation instead of love and joy or because I feel guilty because I don’t follow the list or if I do follow the list I’m just going through the motions without any real meaning behind what I’m doing.

I can honestly say as a Catholic that I don’t ever feel the ‘To Do’ list in my life. I am sure millions of other Catholics feel the same way. Hope that makes sense.