Catholic.com presidential poll

[Trident_H]

Oh, not at all.

Some things about Trump are known; certainly his occasional boorishness is. Some are fairly well known or believed, like the kinds of people he would appoint to the Supreme Court. Some are not known at all, like how exactly he would deal with ISIS.

But in similar manner, some things are known about Hillary Clinton. She supports abortion on demand. She started one war, exacerbated another by running guns, put terrorists in power in three separate theaters. That’s known. It’s known that she accepted very large sums of money from very questionable sources and appears to have done favors for them at about the same time. Some things are not at all known, like whether she would really be as socialist as she now says she would be in order to beat Sanders.

I, for one, can accept boorishness before I can accept warmongering and corruption in office, and I suspect a lot of people can. It’s not really all that mysterious.

Yep. That’s the whole deal. Right there.

 

[Crossbones]

I can’t say this is the case in this instance, but I think a lot of people have difficulty wrapping their minds around what really comes down to the teaching authority of the Church. Relativism is very prevalent in this society and has been growing since probably the early 1900s. As a result, people don’t even realize there is a difference between immutable “principles” as taught by the Catholic Church and the subjective 'values" many or most people think are the proper tests of the decisions they make.

I would disagree with this. It seems to me that there are those who do not believe it is possible for Catholics with well-formed consciences to draw another conclusion from Church teaching than one that centers entirely around abortion. I guess I would encourage everyone, even those with strongly held convictions, to re-read the relevant Church documents and ask themselves what they are actually saying and how to apply that to voting in this election.

 

[Crossbones]

I only know I found Bishop Kicanas’s interview interesting in comparison to what I had read around here. I think too since you mentioned it, perhaps another important point to make in regard to other works and voter guides from organizations not run by bishops is what the bishops have said about such guides:

“During election years, there may be many handouts and voter guides that are produced and distributed. We encourage Catholics to seek those resources authorized by their own bishops, their state Catholic conferences, and the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.”

usccb.org/issues-and-action/faithful-citizenship/forming-consciences-for-faithful-citizenship-part-one.cfm

And from what I gather, unless I misundersand, this “Catholic Answers” site is one such laity-run organization which has previously produced such a guide, the use of which was discouraged by the bishops.

catholicculture.org/news/features/index.cfm?recnum=31706

I think the issue must be that some of these organizations provide voter’s guide that do not place the emphasis where the bishops want. We obviously see similar cases of posters putting their own personal interpretation of Church teaching around here as well.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I would disagree with this. It seems to me that there are those who do not believe it is possible for Catholics with well-formed consciences to draw another conclusion from Church teaching than one that centers entirely around abortion. I guess I would encourage everyone, even those with strongly held convictions, to re-read the relevant Church documents and ask themselves what they are actually saying and how to apply that to voting in this election.

Oh, I encourage Catholics to read them as well.

In doing so, they will find that abortion is regarded as an intrinsic evil (grave evil, and evil every time); that one cannot support a politician who promotes abortion unless the opposing candidate promotes an equal or greater intrinsic evil. it doesn’t take much thought to realize there is no equal or greater intrinsic evil to the killing of 1,000,000 children per year in this election unless one simply doesn’t accept their humanity. But of course, the Church regards unborn children as human beings, so that’s out.

But of course, if Trump starts to espouse killing 2,000,000 children (or adults, for that matter) annually, the Clinton folks would have an argument. Right now, though, they don’t.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I think the issue must be that some of these organizations provide voter’s guide that do not place the emphasis where the bishops want. We obviously see similar cases of posters putting their own personal interpretation of Church teaching around here as well.

Remarkable to see this. I recall seeing many interpretations by Clinton supporters who depart from what the bishops or any Church sources actually say, including but not limited to statements by Popes, the USCCB and various leaders of the Church.

 

[Crossbones]

Oh, I encourage Catholics to read them as well.

In doing so, they will find that abortion is regarded as an intrinsic evil (grave evil, and evil every time); that one cannot support a politician who promotes abortion unless the opposing candidate promotes an equal or greater intrinsic evil. it doesn’t take much thought to realize there is no equal or greater intrinsic evil to the killing of 1,000,000 children per year in this election unless one simply doesn’t accept their humanity. But of course, the Church regards unborn children as human beings, so that’s out.

But of course, if Trump starts to espouse killing 2,000,000 children (or adults, for that matter) annually, the Clinton folks would have an argument. Right now, though, they don’t.

Perhaps they will and perhaps they won’t. There are significant issues with both major party candidates.

 

[estesbob]

Remarkable to see this. I recall seeing many interpretations by Clinton supporters who depart from what the bishops or any Church sources actually say, including but not limited to statements by Popes, the USCCB and various leaders of the Church.

Nothing i have posted needs interpretation-you know statements like this:

*No, you can never vote for someone who favors absolutely what’s called the ‘right to choice’ of a woman to destroy human life in her womb, or the right to a procured abortion,"

“You may in some circumstances where you don’t have any candidate who is proposing to eliminate all abortion, choose the candidate who will most limit this grave evil in our country, but you could never justify voting for a candidate who not only does not want to limit abortion but believes that it should be available to everyone”
Cardinal Burke

All we ever get in return is "well i read an interview where a Bishop said we have difficult choices when we vote, voting for a pro-abortion candidate is difficult, therefore that makes it ok.

 

[Crossbones]

Remarkable to see this. I recall seeing many interpretations by Clinton supporters who depart from what the bishops or any Church sources actually say, including but not limited to statements by Popes, the USCCB and various leaders of the Church.

That’s why it is important for everyone to read the Church teachings will open minds using their well-formed consciences to determine who to vote for.

 

[pnewton]

That’s why it is important for everyone to read the Church teachings will open minds using their well-formed consciences to determine who to vote for.

That is what the USCCB says. I believe all the bishops on the committee have a diocese where they exercise ecclessial authority.

 

[pnewton]

I’m just going to assume since this is a Christian board as you say, that you know there are Christians and other Christian faith communities of moral character which don’t find it so hard to balance. They simply may not have the same faith in Catholic teaching authority on faith and morals.

I know there are some Christian communities that have deviated pretty far from morality. I deem faith that allows it easy to dismiss the promotion of abortion pretty far out there, worse even than the Christianity that allowed for chattel slavery and forbade racial mixing. Yes, I know such Christians exist and serve as an example of what happens when one gets far away from moral authority. I cannot imagine Christians that are close to the core values taught by Christ to find it* easy* to vote for Hillary Clinton. Jesus did not start making Styrofoam millstones.

 

[Crossbones]

I know there are some Christian communities that have deviated pretty far from morality. I deem faith that allows it easy to dismiss the promotion of abortion pretty far out there, worse even than the Christianity that allowed for chattel slavery and forbade racial mixing. Yes, I know such Christians exist and serve as an example of what happens when one gets far away from moral authority. I cannot imagine Christians that are close to the core values taught by Christ to find it* easy* to vote for Hillary Clinton. Jesus did not start making Styrofoam millstones.

I can’t imagine that Christians with core values have found it easy to vote for either major party candidate for a while now. This one might be the worst for two bad choices though.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I can’t imagine that Christians with core values have found it easy to vote for either major party candidate for a while now. This one might be the worst for two bad choices though.

I’m a Christian. I have core values. I’m conservative. I find the choice crystal clear and I am excited to vote.

 

[Ridgerunner]

That’s why it is important for everyone to read the Church teachings will open minds using their well-formed consciences to determine who to vote for.

But you see, for Catholics, one cannot have a well-formed conscience knowingly acting against a teaching of the Church. (Around we go again.)

 

[Ridgerunner]

I can’t imagine that Christians with core values have found it easy to vote for either major party candidate for a while now. This one might be the worst for two bad choices though.

The question isn’t whether the choices are “bad” in the sense of “not something I prefer”. It is actually quite easy for Catholics to vote against the pro-abortion candidate, so long as the candidate one votes for does not espouse something equal to or worse than killing a million children per year.

 

[Crossbones]

I’m a Christian. I have core values. I’m conservative. I find the choice crystal clear and I am excited to vote.

I’m glad for you. Many will find this a particular difficult choice between two candidates that are lacking.

 

[anon67074017]

I don’t adore a constitution. I adore God.

No one fits my credentials. I’m a Catholic Pro-life Socialist.

That is similar to the view of the Communist Party of the Russian Federation. They are a Stalinist socialist party. They are pro-life and in favor of cooperation with the Russian Orthodox Church.

 

[Crossbones]

But you see, for Catholics, one cannot have a well-formed conscience knowingly acting against a teaching of the Church. (Around we go again.)

They can knowingly act against someone else’s interpretation of the teaching of the Church.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I’m glad for you. Many will find this a particular difficult choice between two candidates that are lacking.

Yes many Catholics seem to find themselves in difficult choices when it comes to issues. Thankfully I’m in the minority of Catholics politically. As they keep seeming to vote (as a majority) away from the church… Hence our current president.

 

[Ridgerunner]

They can knowingly act against someone else’s interpretation of the teaching of the Church.

But not the actual teaching. Even your own citations of Church leaders preclude voting for Hillary Clinton. Don’t need interpretation when the words are quite plain.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Yes many Catholics seem to find themselves in difficult choices when it comes to issues. Thankfully I’m in the minority of Catholics politically. As they keep seeming to vote (as a majority) away from the church… Hence our current president.

Be of good cheer, though. That is changing. Fewer Catholics as a percentage voted for Obama in 2012 than did in 2008. This election? Hard to know just yet. But any at all voting for Hillary Clinton is too many.