Catholic Parish Part of Gay Pride Parade in NYC

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Ockham said:
Where does God fit into this hierarchy?

After reading this thread I now wonder if these Orders are too autonomous and unique. What’s wrong with "One Holy Catholic Apostolic? being the norm instead of all the variances?

The Jesuits have been adrift from the Mother Church for some time now. If their superiors can’t bring about order then perhaps it is time to cut them off.
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I did not put God into this hierarchy, because it is a given that he is there. But the way that I understood your question was about superiors, so I answered you accordingly. I explained the hierarchy. It is understood that the founders and their sons are all called to live in Christ and for Christ.

The question on the table is the order of authority in the temporal sphere. That order is always as I said.

Orders are supposed to be very unique. This is the gift of the Holy Spirit to the Church. The Church recognizes that throughout history the Holy Spirit raises very unique religious families for the salvation of God’s people and the sanctification of the members of the order. Every human being is like a fingerprint. We are all very unique and our needs and gifts vary from peson to person. God uses that uniqueness in a very special way by calling forth different variations of the consecrated life so that more people can join him in this way of life, each according to his gifts and his spiritual needs. It is the wish and authority of the Church that desires that each order be unique and be autonomous so that it can grow without intervention from human beings. The Church in her wisdom acknowledges the value of the gifts and charism tha each religious institute brings to the table.

If all religious institutes had only one charism, one vision, and one mission, the diverse gifts of the Holy Spirit would be wasted. But by giving us Jesuits, Franciscans, Benedictines, Salesians, Carmelites, Redemptorists, Christian Brothers, Daughters of Charity, Vincentians and more the Holy Spirit makes use of all of man’s gifts for the glory of the Father, the salvation of the religious men and women who belong to these orders and the health of the Church. The Church herself refers to these orders as necessary and to their diversity as essential for her life as the Body of Christ. Read Perfectae Caritatis and Vita Consacrata or read the Bull of Honorius in 1223. This is not a new idea in the Church.

I believe that you statement about the Jesuits is remarkable and very uncharitable to say the least. The Society of Jesus, like every other religious family, has made very important contributions to the salvation of souls and the education of the Church and it continues to do so. You cannot judge 18,000 men based on a few people that you believe are off track. How fair is that? This is a very huge religious family that is dispersed through every continent and in almost every country in the world. To make such a statement about them presumes that one know the entire picture of the Society of Jesus, which is probably not even clear to the Holy See. My guess is that the only person who may have a clear picture of the mission and their holiness is their superior general who keeps track of the entire Society around the world.

It’s like us Franciscans. We are 1.7 million in 114 countries and speaking over 300 languages. To condemn an entire family and want to take away our autonomy and our identity is a crusade. You just can’t make statements like the ones that you make about stripping that many people of their identity, their mission, the vision of their founders and their charism. To begin with, it’s an assault on the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit gave Francis of Assisi a very different vision and mission from that of Dominica, Ignatius, Benedict, Vincent, Mother Teresa and others. If you were to eliminate charisms and diversity, which would you keep and which would you throw out?

Would you make everyone a monk, like St. Benedict, a hermit like the early Carmelites, a mendicant like St. Francis or Mother Teresa, a scholar like Dominic and Ignatius, a teacher like John de La Salle or Fancis de Sales, or a worker of mercy like Vincent? Those are just a few of the missions of the different religious families.

Then you have their inner spiritual life, which varies from one to another. For example:

Benedictines: intense life of liturgical prayer with chanted Liturgy of the Hours round the clock

Franciscans: intense life of liturgical prayer without chanting, in the language of the brothers, to increase the holiness of the local Catholics.

Jesuits: intense life of contemplation and recollection to hear and learn from the Holy Spirit the truths of the faith.

Dominicans: intense life of community prayer to sustain their brotherhood with each other and with Christ.

Christian Brothers: intense life of prayer around the needs of the young and the marginalized of society to bring the young back to Christ and to keep Christ present in their lives.

Each religious family has a very different life of prayer and a very different intention for their life of prayer. All of these intentions or honorable and give praise to God and serve the good of mankind.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I’m going to state this again and it is not up for debate. You may not be rude to any member of the clergy or any religious. You may not speak uncharitably about the clergy or religious.

Comments that encourage others to disregard, disrespect or question the integrity of clergy and religious are serious violations against charity and will incurr an infraction or even a ban if the person continues. This is not up for discussion or negotiation.

The same rules of charity that apply to other persons on and off the threads apply to clergy and religious on and off the threads.

If you have any problems with this statement, take it up with the moderator of the appropriate forum.

Sincerely,

Thomas Casey
Moderator
 
We have to view things in two columns here. First column is the sins around us and our own sins as well. No sin is ever acceptable. Just like murder is unacceptable. The second column is the chain of command. Because we want to rid ourselves of our own sins and those sins that surround us we cannot throw out the chain of command.

The question is, are we disagreeing with the sin or are we disagreeing with the chain of command. On the topic of this thread, I certainly understand the Archbishop’s concerns. Though a parishioner has already posted that the concern is no longer there, since it seems that the people involved are not going to march and the Archbishop, on the other hand, supports the parish’s attempt to reach out the gay community. The conclusion to this whole report seems to be a good one for all sides.

For the sake of clarity, let’s say that the issue was still a concern; there is a chain of command that must be followed. This is in place in every organization. I was just reading about the General and the White House. Apparently he has said some things that he may not say. It’s not an issue of whether he is right or wrong. It is an issue of authority.

The Church has the same systems in place. Actually, the Church has had them in place longer than the US government for the sake of justice and avoiding unnecessary confrontations and factions. It’s not an issue of the Archbishop vs the Jesuits who run the parish. It’s a question of who has jurisdiction where. The Jesuits and the Archbishop both have jurisdiction in their respective zones. When these authorities work together, chaos is avoided and problems are resolved faster, which seems to be the case in this parish.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
There were a number of outstanding elements in that video.
  1. The church building is beautiful. I have not seen a church tha beautiful in most cities. Anyone know how old it is?
  2. The pastor’s letter in the article was very well written and explained the bishop’s concerns without much fanfare, simple and to the point.
  3. The Jesuit Provincial’s comments were very good, because he presents a vision of the Jesuits that many people have lost. They are men of service and faith.
  4. The pastor’s explanation of the two missions of the Jesuits was well done: to offer more to those who ask for more and to offer a place for those who are on the margins.
  5. Cardinal Egan’s remarks at the end were outstanding. It’s not often that a secular cardinal promotes religious life. The usually promote the priesthood. But he was very clear in stating that the parish owes the Jesuits something and that is vocations to the Jesuit life. I also liked the fact that he did not refer to them as Jesuit Priests, but by their proper title, The Company of Jesus, thus including allo of the Jesuits, as St. Ignantius did when he founded them.
  6. The look on the Archbishop’s face when the ministries are being introduced is special.
I did not like the woman with the incense bowl and the dance dress. But that’s not a major issue in light of how well the parish seems to run and how well things turned out.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
JReducation said:
There were a number of outstanding elements in that video.
  1. The church building is beautiful. I have not seen a church tha beautiful in most cities. Anyone know how old it is?
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I’ve been following the thread from the beginning, but had nothing to add to the discussion. Anyway… I looked it up and the present church of St. Francis was built about 1887 in the Baroque style. That is one of the nice things about that area from NY to MD - especially the older communities. They have incredibly beautiful churches in all classes of neighborhoods, many of which are similar in beauty to this church. In some neighborhoods they are like diamonds in the rough. It always makes me wonder at how much the laity were so dedicated to their faith and church that they sacrificed and built churches like those with their donations and some with their own skills. (A few I’ve been in were built by the those who worshipped there and it’s touching to see the handiwork of those who carved the pews, the mason work, stained glass, etc.)

Anyway, back to lurking.
 
Sarabande said:
I’ve been following the thread from the beginning, but had nothing to add to the discussion. Anyway… I looked it up and the present church of St. Francis was built about 1887 in the Baroque style. That is one of the nice things about that area from NY to MD - especially the older communities. They have incredibly beautiful churches in all classes of neighborhoods, many of which are similar in beauty to this church. In some neighborhoods they are like diamonds in the rough. It always makes me wonder at how much the laity were so dedicated to their faith and church that they sacrificed and built churches like those with their donations and some with their own skills. (A few I’ve been in were built by the those who worshipped there and it’s touching to see the handiwork of those who carved the pews, the mason work, stained glass, etc.)

Anyway, back to lurking.
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I certianly believe there was great faith involved in these buildings. However, there was also great skill that we no longer have today. Even our secular architecture was very detailed. Look at the old buildings in NYC, Baltimore, Philadelphia, Boston and more. Certain European groups had skills that we no longer cultivate. Part of it has to do with speed and the other part has to do with cost. As you said, much of that work was done by the parishioners themselves. The cost was significantly reduced. I live in a house where we’re lucky if we can drill a hole in the wall without electricuting ourselves.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
JReducation said:
I certianly believe there was great faith involved in these buildings. **However, there was also great skill that we no longer have today. Even our secular architecture was very detailed. ** Look at the old buildings in NYC, Baltimore, Philadelphia, Boston and more. Certain European groups had skills that we no longer cultivate. Part of it has to do with speed and the other part has to do with cost. As you said, much of that work was done by the parishioners themselves. The cost was significantly reduced. I live in a house where we’re lucky if we can drill a hole in the wall without electricuting ourselves.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
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Very true. Part of my family comes from artisan “German stock” and many of them even today are very skilled at building, art work and specialty things of that sort. But ask me to do something like that… you might as well just ask me to destroy your home. haha! Just leave me to my music. You’re safer that way. That said, I feel very fortunate to live in an area which have so many churches like these. It’s always sad when you see them close down or even knocked down, but it’s usually the change in demographics. Pity it’s not affordable or practical to have them moved to the suburbs. But such is life and in another way, reminds one that although beautiful and spiritually inspiring, one can live without it. Ok… now truly back to lurking. I don’t want to derail the thread.
 
zathros said:
Attached with this link is a short video of the rededication mass held at Xavier this past weekend. Listening to the comments from the Archbishop, it would seem this is a parish whose model should be followed by others. 🙂

blog.beliefnet.com/deaconsbench/2010/06/its-a-big-church----in-every-sense.html
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it is a beautifull Church. i am shocked by what i saw there. i fell like just turn it off. but i want to see how it would turned out. i am not impressed with what i saw. i think that many people just want to see the Church full of people and money and not care about what is really going there. apparently it is an inclusive Church where everything goes as long as they do good works. what is with all the applauses? i know they were patting each other on the backs congratuling each other and the great works they are doing, but they really needed all the scream and applause? oh ye, they do.
 
wisdomseeker said:
it is a beautifull Church. i am shocked by what i saw there. i fell like just turn it off. but i want to see how it would turned out. i am not impressed with what i saw. i think that many people just want to see the Church full of people and money and not care about what is really going there. apparently it is an inclusive Church where everything goes as long as they do good works. what is with all the applauses? i know they were patting each other on the backs congratuling each other and the great works they are doing, but they really needed all the scream and applause? oh ye, they do.
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What behavior did you see that is defined as sin? That’s what we must avoid. The rest is usually pretty neutral.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
wisdomseeker said:
it is a beautifull Church. i am shocked by what i saw there. i fell like just turn it off. but i want to see how it would turned out. i am not impressed with what i saw. i think that many people just want to see the Church full of people and money and not care about what is really going there. apparently it is an inclusive Church where everything goes as long as they do good works. what is with all the applauses? i know they were patting each other on the backs congratuling each other and the great works they are doing, but they really needed all the scream and applause? oh ye, they do.
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I was very impressed and my reaction was to let me see more. Perhaps the entire rededication mass will be broadcast somewhere.
And for the applause, it seems they fully deserve it. They provide clothing to those who need it, feed those who are hungry, provide shelter to those with none, and minister to those people who others feel are unworthy. :bible1:
 
zathros said:
I was very impressed and my reaction was to let me see more. Perhaps the entire rededication mass will be broadcast somewhere.
And for the applause, it seems they fully deserve it. They provide clothing to those who need it, feed those who are hungry, provide shelter to those with none, and minister to those people who others feel are unworthy. :bible1:
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The ministry is incredible and it’s a very celibratory event. These people must have worked very hard to restore this church. It was not just the altar that was being consecrated, but the entire church has been redone and re-consecrated. This is quite an achievement for any parish community.

If we look at these things through the lenses of the saints, these are times when God rejoices and is deighted with his people. Mother Agnes, the Superior General of the Sisters of Life said it best, “We must learn to delight in human beings the way that God delights in them. Otherwise, we are not truly ‘Sisters of Life’.” She is speaking to her spiritual daughters. She has a wonderful point here.

We always tell our young brothers in formation, “To be a Franciscan one must learn to laugh, smile, celebrate and dance in God’s presence as St. Francis taught us. Let us never forget the lessons of love that we learned from our Holy Father when he played his mandolin and danced before the tabernacle as he celebrated the presence of the Crucified One in our midst.”

“In the mystical life there is always a healthy tension between the tragedy and the comedy.” (Constitutions of the Franciscan Brothers of Life, Chap on Liturgy and Prayer)

In the classical sense of Catholic mysticism there has always been an equal expression of laughter and tears. I’m always reminded of a professor whom we had in Rome that taught us the theology of St. Teresa of Avila. He taught us about one of the mystical experiences that Teresa had and how she described being in the presence of God as more intense than the pleasure of the marital bed and more cheerful than a nursery. When she was discovered having this particular mystical experience all she could do was clap and laugh.

True holiness is the ability to integrate the entire human experience into the spiritual life, not subdo the human experience.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
zathros said:
I was very impressed and my reaction was to let me see more. Perhaps the entire rededication mass will be broadcast somewhere.
And for the applause, it seems they fully deserve it. They provide clothing to those who need it, feed those who are hungry, provide shelter to those with none, and minister to those people who others feel are unworthy. :bible1:
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oh i notice that. they deserve to celebrate themselves. they are great. and where is God in all this? should we put works before God? oh ye. very good indeed. no thanks.
 
“Put all the good works in the world against one Holy Mass; they will be as a grain of sand beside a mountain.” - St. John Vianney, The Cure of Ars.

If a pastor/priest/parish can’t get the Mass right - nothing else matters.
 
The sin of sodomy is not to be condoned no matter how inclusive any particular parish or order may think of itself. Laughter and applause have no place in the liturgy nor dancing in front of the Tabernacle.
 
wisdomseeker said:
oh i notice that. they deserve to celebrate themselves. they are great. and where is God in all this? should we put works before God? oh ye. very good indeed. no thanks.
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Christ’s real presence is in the Eucharist, exactly where you’d expect at a Roman Catholic mass. Very Good Indeed! Why are you so jealous of them? :confused:
 
Ockham said:
The sin of sodomy is not to be condoned no matter how inclusive any particular parish or order may think of itself. Laughter and applause have no place in the liturgy nor dancing in front of the Tabernacle.
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The sin of sodomy is not the issue here, welcoming all those who wish to freely worship is. Why cloud the issue with your own agenda? Applause has no place in mass? Why do you not agree with the Rubrics of the Roman Catholic mass? 👍
 
The Sacrament of Communion is not open to all those who wish to receive it. That is not my agenda it is the Church’s. The Church teaches sodomy is a sin that cries to the Heavens. Homosexual ‘marriage’ is forbidden. It is therefore hypocritical and not appropriate to condone this act in public spectacles such as a parade.

Can you show me where in the rubics applause is called for?
 
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