Catholic priest blasted for asking 'ladies' to dress modestly to 'protect the

[DarkLight]

I have a very similar cut of dress in solid black that I use for interviews. No one outside of church finds it at all sexualized, and sleeveless tops are normal in women’s professional attire around here. It seems to many of us that we’re more objectified in the church by the constant modesty focus, than in the world that by and large sees nothing sexual in the same.

 

[DeniseNY]

I have a very similar cut of dress in solid black that I use for interviews. No one outside of church finds it at all sexualized, and sleeveless tops are normal in women’s professional attire around here. It seems to many of us that we’re more objectified in the church by the constant modesty focus, than in the world that by and large sees nothing sexual in the same.

Yes. Dresses like that (in a longer length) are a staple of my summer working wardrobe (and that of practically every woman I know - and I work in finance). And most of the women I saw when I would attend a daily Latin Rite mass were wearing the same.

 

[Asinner]

Should I ask them not to wear those things?

Yes you could, if a significant portion, probably a majority, of women also found such an article of clothing to be a near occasion of sin, and there is historical precedent going back thousands of years saying that such an article is not appropriate to wear for worship. Under those circumstances, it would be downright reckless for men to wear such an article of clothing to Mass, showing no regard for your soul.

God, forgive me for dressing inappropriately to Mass.

 

[DeniseNY]

and there is historical precedent going back thousands of years saying that such an article is not appropriate to wear for worship

So now it has to go back thousands of years?

 

[kainosktisis]

Oh, I see where you’re coming from. Point taken. In all honesty though, I don’t take his message negatively. In fact, I see it as a positive for the men. Quite the opposite.

 

[Asinner]

can control his thoughts

I was trying to get you to consider the possibility that men men do not have complete control of their thoughts in regards to this matter. It seems you are answering my question with “no,” you do not believe men.

 

[DeniseNY]

I’m bowing out of this conversation. I will just also leave it with my definition of sleeveless would also be something like this, which I commonly wear (with different shoes and pants). If a sleeveless vest (which covers my rear end and is not tight) worn over a sleeveless turtleneck is causing men to lust, I don’t know what to say other than I think pretty much anything would make him lust.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.) (Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[kainosktisis]

Very nice, but since I get cold easily, I’d need something long-sleeved.

 

[Asinner]

I’m trying to demonstrate that this is not a single or rare occurrence for a few troubled men, but a very common problem for many men through the ages.

I guess I’m trying to get you to listen to other people’s struggles. I guess I am failing.

 

[DarkLight]

I was trying to get you to consider the possibility that men men do not have complete control of their thoughts in regards to this matter. It seems you are answering my question with “no,” you do not believe men.

Here’s the thing: no one is expecting you to have complete control over your thoughts. We’re expecting that you can look at a woman, recognize if she is attractive, and then turn away and not be consumed by lusting over her. And that it’s frankly kind of disturbing the way that we talk as though any stray thought is a horrible distraction or even sinful. We do think men can control their thoughts enough to not be slaves to their own desires.

 

[TheLittleLady]

I don’t disagree. These modesty threads never end well

 

[Asinner]

any stray thought is a horrible distraction or even sinful

I’m not sure if you’re catholic, but these stray thoughts, and the things that prompt them, are what we call “near occasions of sin.” They aren’t sins themselves, but can lead to sin. The actual sin in this context is to dwell on lustful thoughts (no need to speak about actions, sexual assaults just don’t happen during Mass).

It always has been, and always will be, the personal responsibility of every person to avoid sin, and we constantly do battle with temptation in the world. All we are asking is for people to recognize that mode of dress presents a common near occasion of sin for others, and for Christians to care enough about each other to at least temper the more obvious ones in the one place where we are supposed to be most spiritually safe.

 

[DeniseNY]

actual sin in this context is to dwell on lustful thoughts (

There’s your answer

 

[DarkLight]

A practicing Catholic man should not find these thoughts a “near occasion of sin”. I think we’ve gotten ourselves worked up over sex to where we can’t tell the difference between “this might possibly lead someone to sin” and “this is a near occasion of sin.” To use an analogy, a lot of people struggle with alcoholism. Am I morally obligated to not drink in public, or not sell alcohol, because of that?

I think men also really underestimate the effect of these things on women. There was another tweet that went around at the same time. Talking about how many women felt that they had sinned for being the subject of assaults by men, because of the constant message that their bodies are an occasion of sin. Even if no one specifically blames them, many of us have gotten that message and it does cause us harm. The message we get is “you are not a sister in Christ, but a forbidden sex object.”

 

[Latinitas]

Alright, true enough. But many people are complaining that he spoke out about modesty, not that he approached it wrong.

Still, I do concede your point.

Benedicat Deus,
Latinitas

 

[Asinner]

lose control and act on a primal urge

Please don’t talk about “acts.” We’ve only been discussion sinful thoughts, as sinful actions in this context are basically nonexistent during Mass.

a kneecap, or even a stunning female in a baggy, long-sleeved turtleneck top and floor length skirt

Please don’t bring up other examples beyond what I’ve specifically talked about.

What I’m failing to impress upon you is that bare shoulders are a near occasion to sin for many, many men, not just a few. That is why it is specifically rules against bare shoulders that have existed for so long and these in particular that are being discussed. I just want women to care about the souls of men.

advancing his development of self-control

Don’t worry, men get ample opportunity to practice this in the world. I think we’re asking that church, the house of God where Jesus Christ is really present be just a slight spiritual safe haven from the world.

 

[Asinner]

I think men also really underestimate the effect of these things on women.

But we’re not asking you to do anything that we don’t do ourselves. Men don’t wear sleeveless clothes Mass.

 

[twf]

Why don’t men wear lace and tights anymore?

 

[DarkLight]

Men in our society generally don’t have people talking endlessly about whether their normal business clothes are too sexualized for church.

 

[Pitcairn17]

The mistake wasn’t of course the standard and seasonal issue of appropriate dress for church. The “.protect the purity of men” comment was unwise and frankly silly, managing to be both patronizing and sexist st the same time.

But the larger issue to me is that this is yet one more time when a few stupid Twitter comments become newsworthy click-bait, driving a whole cycle of digital stone-throwing. Ancient Rome had its barbarians at the gates; our barbarians are armed with phones and laptops, with, I fear, the same cultural results.