Catholic Schools and Non-Immunizing Families

[luvmykids]

mominne:

You did not present any new information to me about the subject at hand in your response. The only thing I learned is that you know doctors and have first hand experience with malaria. Now please tell me how that is proof of the safety of an aggresive vaccine schedule.

With all due respect, really, can you present me with any proof of the fact that vaccinations are not safe? I would really rather err on the side of caution and protect my children from these things that we KNOW could cause major complications. I was vaccinated when I was young, and so was my sibling, and my entire husbands family, with no complications from them. I do not understand what the issue is here. Should we stop eating food because of the long term effects of pesticides? Are you going to stop giving your children any meat that is from an animal treated with antibiotics, or hormones, dairy, vegetables, anything with partially hydrogenated fats, fish, (it’s unsafe now), because we don’t know the long term effects of it? There are so many things to worry about when you have children. You just do the best you can to protect them and that is all you can do.

I also cannot believe the attacks on health care professionals. I feel we have come a long way medically, yeah there is some malpractice out there, but when the majority of the medical community agrees about something and you have no medical proof to argue otherwise, I would usually tend to lean towards the medical advise. I read about the death rates of children way back when and am in complete awe at how many died. A family of 10 could easily be reduced to a family of 4, 5, or 6. My grandparents on both sides had children die, I can’t imagine losing one child let alone mutiple children and am thankful I live in this day and age. I would most likely trust the medical profession from where all of these miraculous cures have come, along with God.

Birth control is a completely separate thing, and has nothing to do with the health of human beings. It is also immoral.

 

[David_Zampino]

mominne:

We really do disagree on many things. Two intelligent human beings can look at the same issue and come to very different conclusions. I wish you would allow me that. Again, you are being patronizing. I know all about DOs and chiropractors. I also know the history of how DOs and chiropractors have had to wage battles against monopolistic MDs to win practice rights. (As an aside, did you know that many chiropractors are concerned about vaccinations?) Did you even read my link to the article on the medical monopoly? That article is a good explanation for where I am coming from.

Ma’am, again, I apologize. I am not attempting to be patronizing. But I do seem to think that this is a convenient excuse to make against someone with whom you disagree.

And I still think (without being patronizing – just basing on what you have written) that you really don’t have any idea as to what you are talking about.

NEVERTHELESS – I respect your right to an opinion – AND your right to disagree.

mominne:

Sir, you did not understand the point I was trying to make. I wasn’t comparing the mechanism of antibiotics and vaccinations. I was pointing out the possibility of unintended consequences with the over-use of vaccines as there have been with antibiotics.

Ma’am, with respect, I do understand the point. I am merely disagreeing – and suggesting that your previous posts suggest that you truly have no idea as to what you are talking about.

I mean no disrespect whatsoever, and if any has been conveyed, I apologize.

mominne:

Sir, belittling me is not a good debating tactic. You haven’t provided me with any of the proof I have asked for. Let’s debate based on the facts, not on accusations of living in “unreality”. The concept of reality is in fact debatable, anyway.

Ma’am, with respect, I have not deliberately belittled you – and if you choose to feel that way, I again most sincerely apologize.

Please define “reality”.

mominne:

I have no idea what a “Christian” doctor should look like. I was simply challenging your assertion that there are “millions” of Christian doctors. I don’t even know if my family physician is one.

Frankly, I’m shocked. I’m aware of the faith of my doctors . . .

If you’re not . . that’s your business . . . but please don’t set up your own assertion based on what you do not know!

mominne:

What I do know is that my family physician is a very respectful and caring man. He takes time with me, speaks with me respectfully, explains his positions on certain issues, and continues to behave respectfully towards me even if I decline his advice.

I recognize this and I appreciate this.

mominne:

I do not need a doctor who agrees with me. I simply need one who won’t freak out if I don’t agree with him (or her)! It does give me pause. Which is why I don’t claim to have all of the answers regarding vaccinations. You may have missed it when I said that I will probably selectively vaccinate my younger children.

mominne:

I didn’t miss it – not at all. I do oppose what seems to be your tendency (and this post is a classic example) of trying to demean or destroy or discredit your “perceived” opponent. I’m sorry that you seem to have chosen to take this view.

Ma’am, I’ll say this now – and I won’t be drawn into a spitting match. Regardless of what you THINK you may have said, these are the facts of the matter:

I am not against persons who disagree with certain vaccinations.

I do suggest that persons who choose not to vaccinate with regard to certain non-controversial diseases are behaving in an irresponsible manner – but have the moral right to do so.

I do suggest that most (not all) of the rhetoric I’ve heard on the subject comes from persons who have not demonstrated that they have the slightest idea as to what they are talking about.

Again, I mean no disrespect – and if such is taken, I apologize in advance.

With respect and blessings,

 

[mominne]

Again, I mean no disrespect – and if such is taken, I apologize in advance.

But you ARE being disrespectful. I have given you concrete points and even references to debate, but you just continually state that I don’t know what I’m talking about. I don’t want a spitting match. I want a conversation about the facts.

 

[MooCowSteph]

Rob’s Wife, thanks for your well formed post!

 

[Shari]

mjdonnelly:

If you don’t want to immunize your kids, keep them home away from my kids.

If your kids are immunized what do you have to worry about? They shouldn’t be at harm from a child whose not.

 

[Shari]

puzzleannie:

the school is complying with the law. the bishop is letting Catholics know that since the Catholic church is not against immunizations per se that Catholics cannot claim a religious exemption, because they cannot cite a Church policy. This is the same as conscientious exemption to the military draft. Since the Catholic Church does not condemn military service on religious grounds, an individual Catholic cannot claim an exemption on the grounds of his Church membership.

In WI we are allowed to claim religious convictions, personal convictions, or medical. They just state that if an outbreak of something would occur a child who has not had shots would need to stay home until the threat passed. What I find so irronic is that last year we had a major outbreak of whooping cough, it’s still floating around, schools closed for a little while and it was one of the health departments biggest concerns. Well if most if not all of the children had had their dtap shots, which is supposed to protect them from this, then why the outbreak. Its things like that that just don’t make sense. And the fact that by 1997 the government had paid out over 800 million dollars to families whose children had died or were permanetly damaged from the vaccines. We home school so I don’t have to worry about this issue, but I defenitly chose not to put my childs life at stake. We don’t do shots.

 

[David_Zampino]

mominne:

But you ARE being disrespectful. I have given you concrete points and even references to debate, but you just continually state that I don’t know what I’m talking about. I don’t want a spitting match. I want a conversation about the facts.

Again – and for the last time, if I have offended, I apologize.

However, you have NOT given concrete points; you have NOT given references to debate, and I have NOT done what you seem to want to accuse me of.

If this is your choice – then fine. But it is your choice.

You have chosen not to address the issues.

You have chosen to engage in polemics.

You have chosen to attack anyone with the temerity to disagree with you.

You have not chosen to address the facts.

I choose to discontinue this conversation.

Many blessings,

 

[maryceleste]

To mominne… (that’s from me and my husband )

I also tend to agree with 1ke’s understanding of personal conscience as an integral part of our religious beliefs. For what it’s worth, so did a US federal court judge, who ruled that a Catholic family was eligible to use the religious exemption against vaccination, even though it’s not a teaching of our Church. I’m guessing that private and parochial schools aren’t bound by this decision, but public schools are. (Any legal experts care to clarify this?)

BTW, for those who only want to claim an exemption to vaccines made from aborted fetal tissue, here’s a ready-made file of supporting documentation taken from official Catholic sources. Looks like it could come in very handy.

 

[Joe_Monahan]

The charity of dialogue in this thread is on a downhill course. I’m closing it pending review and a decision by the FL forum’s moderator.

Thanks to those who have participated.

Joe Monahan

 

[Ferdinand_Mary]

After reviewing the thread, I have decided to re-open it.

**CAUTION: The thread is being closely monitored and any “boarderline” comments will result in modification of posting privilages.

**We are brothers and sisters in Christ, and neither bickering nor accusations befit the self-giving love which we are called to espouse. I am not pointing to anyone in particular, but all are reminded to keep the charity level to a maximum.

Mane Nobiscum Domine,
Ferdinand Mary

 

[David_Zampino]

Ferdinand Mary:

After reviewing the thread, I have decided to re-open it.

**CAUTION: The thread is being closely monitored and any “boarderline” comments will result in modification of posting privilages.

**We are brothers and sisters in Christ, and neither bickering nor accusations befit the self-giving love which we are called to espouse. I am not pointing to anyone in particular, but all are reminded to keep the charity level to a maximum.

Mane Nobiscum Domine,
Ferdinand Mary

Greetings,

Please allow me to express sincere apologies for my own uncharitable remarks.

Many blessings,

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

Does anyone have a link/quote/etc on what the Church says on this matter? The OP mentions “the Church has made a statement that parents may still decide for or against immunization, and if they decide for immunization - they are not cooperating with evil and acting immorally by accepting vaccinations made from aborted fetal tissue” and many other posters on this thread have stated that the Church leaves it up to the parents, etc. Does anyone have any link or any info of where one can go read such documents? I would just like to see what exactly is said, the wording etc.

Thanks!

 

[mom2boyz]

All choices have consequences. If you choose not to vaccinate then you can’t go to that school. You have a right not to vaccinate, but the school has a right to say you can’t go there if you don’t. If you don’t want to vaccinate, then find a school that will accomodate your decision. No where in life do you get everything you want. I guess you can either sue the school or make an appeal to a higher authority. That is also a choice you can make.

What I don’t understand is if vaccines are morally evil, then why hasn’t the Vatican come out and said so directly? The Vatican doesn’t seem to have a problem telling us directly about other moral evils. There is no question about the stance on abortion, premaritial sex, living together without marriage, divorce and remarriage, not getting married in the church, birth control and others. I would think if this constituted a grave sin the Vatican would say so.

 

[Donna_P]

mjdonnelly:

If you don’t want to immunize your kids, keep them home away from my kids.

Very easy to say. However, have you immunized your children for chicken Pox which uses aborted babies?

 

[luvmykids]

Donna P:

Very easy to say. However, have you immunized your children for chicken Pox which uses aborted babies?

It doesn’t use aborted babies. It was harvested from an aborted baby, but the abortion of more babies is not needed nor is it necessary for the continued manufacturing of this vaccine. It was harvested and that’s it. It is unfortunate that it was harvested that way, but the use of it, is not promoting further abortions. Just to make sure it is clear.

 

[StampinJuli]

lifeisbeautiful:

Does anyone have a link/quote/etc on what the Church says on this matter? The OP mentions “the Church has made a statement that parents may still decide for or against immunization, and if they decide for immunization - they are not cooperating with evil and acting immorally by accepting vaccinations made from aborted fetal tissue” and many other posters on this thread have stated that the Church leaves it up to the parents, etc. Does anyone have any link or any info of where one can go read such documents? I would just like to see what exactly is said, the wording etc.

Thanks!

Hi lifeisbeautiful, I found the links through a Google search suing the terms “Catholic immunization” as my search terms and followed the links from there. I am sorry I id not save teh actual links, as I figure I can just Google it again (and probably wouldn’t figure out where I saved the links otherwise! lol) I hope that helps!

Peace in Him, Juli

 

[StampinJuli]

mom2boyz:

All choices have consequences. If you choose not to vaccinate then you can’t go to that school. You have a right not to vaccinate, but the school has a right to say you can’t go there if you don’t. If you don’t want to vaccinate, then find a school that will accomodate your decision. No where in life do you get everything you want. I guess you can either sue the school or make an appeal to a higher authority. That is also a choice you can make.

What I don’t understand is if vaccines are morally evil, then why hasn’t the Vatican come out and said so directly? The Vatican doesn’t seem to have a problem telling us directly about other moral evils. There is no question about the stance on abortion, premaritial sex, living together without marriage, divorce and remarriage, not getting married in the church, birth control and others. I would think if this constituted a grave sin the Vatican would say so.

Good points Mom2boyz - I don’t recall any of these posts stating that vaccines were morally evil. There is an issue out there related to vaccines made a couple of decades ago from tissue from two aborted babies. I have never seen any info that states that further abortions were done for the same purpose. I am sure a Google search would produce some sources for this for anyone interested in pursuing the issue.

Are you wondering, in your post, if all objection to immunizations is based on them being morally evil, such as being made from tissue of aborted babies? In my research on immunization - there are many reasons for people’s objections to immunizations, being morally evil is only one of them among non-immunizing families.

Hope that helps! Juli

 

[StampinJuli]

HI All! I want to say THANK YOU again to everyone for sharing their thoughts and opinions on my original question. To vax or not to vax is a hot button issue for many reasons. I just wanted to share what I gleaned from all the great replies, as well as our plan of action at this point:

• Private schools may have the right to refuse a State Law accepted exemption. Call the Health Dept. legal counsel or State’s Atty. General and ask.
• Sometimes strongly held values can come into conflict with each other, and one must be prepared to re-evaluate the priority of those values, and be willing to invest time in finding a new solution/compromise to uphold those values.
• “Proper formation of the conscience” is key to living life as a Catholic Christian, and thusly fulfilling parenting responsibilities, and all other vocational responsibilities in one’s life. Regularly evaluate how one is doing in properly forming one’s conscience in line with Scripture and Church Tradition.
• I plan on contacting my Diocese and asking for explanation on this particular new policy to better understand where they are coming from in this decision.
• I plan on re-evaluating our original reasons for choosing non-immunization for my children, and making that decision all over again, regardless of the outcome with the Diocesan policy.
• I plan on writing an objection letter to the Diocese, as the letter from the school indicated we had the opportunity to do.

Thanks again for all your (name removed by moderator)ut. I hope this thread helps others in similar situations in the future!

God Bless you all! Juli

 

[marvin]

This link may be helpful:

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0504240.htm

 

[Seatuck]

lifeisbeautiful:

Does anyone have a link/quote/etc on what the Church says on this matter? The OP mentions “the Church has made a statement that parents may still decide for or against immunization, and if they decide for immunization - they are not cooperating with evil and acting immorally by accepting vaccinations made from aborted fetal tissue” and many other posters on this thread have stated that the Church leaves it up to the parents, etc. Does anyone have any link or any info of where one can go read such documents? I would just like to see what exactly is said, the wording etc.

Thanks!

The Children of God for Life site that was earlier posted has this info. I know sometimes when a thread gets lost this can happen.

cogforlife.org/